Hey guys,

After looking through all the manuals, and reading in this post I have come to the conclusion that there are alot of variables that affect accuracy. I am loading for a 30-06 winchester model 70XVR. Where do I start as far as seating depth, which powder, which bullet? I want to start with 165gr nos bt since I have alot of them on hand. I also have several powders that will work for the 30-06. I guess what I am getting at is where do I start? There are an infinate number of possibilities with just one bullet and one powder (adjusting seating depth). That I could possibly shoot out the barrel before I even get on to the next one.

Where Do I start?

quote:

Originally posted by Markhpb:
Hey guys,

After looking through all the manuals, and reading in this post I have come to the conclusion that there are alot of variables that affect accuracy. I am loading for a 30-06 winchester model 70XVR. Where do I start as far as seating depth, which powder, which bullet? I want to start with 165gr nos bt since I have alot of them on hand. I also have several powders that will work for the 30-06. I guess what I am getting at is where do I start? There are an infinate number of possibilities with just one bullet and one powder (adjusting seating depth). That I could possibly shoot out the barrel before I even get on to the next one.

Where Do I start?

IMO, just keep it simple.

I’m looking at the Nosler manual (6) and on page 378 is information on their 165-168 grain bullets. On this page you’ll notice that Nosler lists 2 powders that are the most accurate at the highest limits of their pressure/velocity range, IMR 4350 and H4350. I would choose one of these powders to start with.

On page 375 of the same manual it calls for an OAL of 3.340 inches. Make your cartridge that length and then workup your load.

Here is what I do:
Consult at least two manuals & shoose a powder that gives you the vel. you are looking for & fills as much of the case as possible.
Choose a bullet for the purpose intended (punching paper or hunting).
I start in the middle of the data or 8%-10% off max. (depnds on size of the case). Load three rounds w/ a bullet seated as long as will fit in your magazine & not contact the lands.
Load 3 more round in 0.3-0.4gr increments, depending on the powder & cartridge. Shoot them in ascending order @ 100yds. watching for pressure signs as you go up. If you have a chronograph, even better, record the vel. & deviation as you go. You'll see when your rifle has a def. pref. for a particular load.
Now load up 5 of those & shoot for group again. If the load looks solid, now you can start tinkering w/ OAL & even diff. primers to get THE BEST load. Shoot for group again @ 200 or 300yds if possible. SOmetimes things look good @ 100 then go to crap @ 300 & vis vers.

Hey Mark, I normally have a Bullet Weight and Style in mind before I start the process. If you are unsure of that, a lot of folks ask for that kind of advice here. Occasionally there is a consensus but mostly enough different opinions to create more confusion.

If you try that, be sure to mention the Game you are Hunting, the Cartridge, the typical terrain and the distance you intend to take shots.
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The Powder is fairly easy for me. I look in a few Manuals and see what normally gives the most Velocity, second most and third. Normally one of those Powders will provide the accuracy level I desire. But of course I have to try them to see which one works the best.
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I prefer to use the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method to see if the Bullet and Powder have potential. Mr. Audette's Method allows a person to get to the Harmonic Clusters with the least amount of components being used.
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Seating Depth is an interesting topic because it has generated all kinds of devices to check on the consistency - most of which are unnecessary. If you try using OCL to ODL you should be good to go.

Now concerning "where" to start with the Seating Depth can also create a lot of confusion. It really depends on the Bullet you are trying to use and how you intend to use it. Some "short" Bullets can't reach the Lands, some longer ones can be Seated to either Set just Off-the-Lands, Into-the-Lands, or to fit within the Magazine.

For a Beginner, Seating 0.025" Off-the-Lands is a good place to start "if" the Cartridge will fit inside the magazine. Then you can Fine Tune the Final Load by adjusting the Seating Depth.
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Or, you could do it totally differently than the above and still make excellent Reloads with fine accuracy. Everyone seems to have their own Method(s) that they prefer. As long as it is SAFE, and creates an Adequate Cartridge for the Game at hand, I'm all for it.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
For a Beginner, Seating 0.025" Off-the-Lands is a good place to start "if" the Cartridge will fit inside the magazine. Then you can Fine Tune the Final Load by adjusting the Seating Depth.

quote:

Markhpb

Markhpb, you’re better off just reading a manual then asking for advice on this forum. There is good information here and not so good information here.

You are right, there area vast number of possibilities. Some manuals list accuracy loads. Try them. Also, do a search on this and on the "Favorite Load" forum on this site and see what others are using for your bullet weight. Worry about bullet seating depth LAST IMHO as this will have the least effect. If this is a hunting load, seat it so that it fits in the magazine. IMR 4350 and IMR 4064 are two good powders.
Peter

OK if you want a place to start try 56.5 grains of IMR 4350 with a 165 grain bullet. Verify the safety of this load against your reloading manuals, but with 165 grain Sierras it shoots sub 1" for a 5 shot group out of my Tikka 30.06
Peter.

My gunsmith, who build some incredibly accurate rifles, generally starts out with the accuracy load for a particular bullet weight listed in either the Sierra or Lyman manuals. Generally, they are pretty good places to start. Duplicate not only the charge but the seating depth. Kudude

The only bad thing about Peter's post is it doesn't give you the opportunity to burn a lot of powder trying to find a good load. I have posted before: If you buy a new 30-06, pick your 165gr bullet of choice and if it will not shoot well in front of 57grs, or in Peter's case 56.5grs, of IMR4350,(it may take a grain or two more of H4350) save yourself a lot of grief and sell the rifle.
You may find a different powder or try different bullets or a different OAL that will give you smaller groups but you will be talking about fractions of an inch.
I developed that load before every kid on the block had a Chrony and used it for years very successfully. When I discovered it was barely crippling along at 2800fps, I was amazed that it would even kill a deer. Since the deer didn't seem to mind, I've continued to use it thru several '06's, mine and friends, and the deer keep falling over.

It is interesting that despite all the gun rag writer's statements about each rifle being unique, and barrel vibrations and everything else, certain calibers eg. 30.06, 308, 300WM do seeem to have standard loads that tend to shoot well no matter what the rifle is. They may not be the BEST load, but they do get you close. M1 Garand loads seem to be the same way. Any way, stillbeeman, thanks for the reinforcement. Now, having said that, certain rifles may be different eg. full stock (Mannlicher style) rifles which can be very frustrating.
Kudude, exactly right! I have a 30 or more year old Lyman manual that lists accuracy loads.
Peter.

Markhpb:
I'm with kdude on this one. When I initially start out, I usually go to the Sierra manual and look at their most accurate load listed. I also start out using their bullets or, if they don't have the type I want (spitzer vs. round nose, for example) I go to Hornady bullets and use them. The rifle should shoot one of those manufacturers bullets accurately. I also seat to the recommended OAL. Once the accurate powder has been found, I go to Partitions for hunting. In my experience, Partitions may not be quite as accurate as a Sierra but I'll sacrifice a bit of accuracy for the performance that Partitions have given me in over 40 years of use. Once my accurate load has been determined, I then play with seating depth.
Bear in Fairbanks

If I can chip in again. Another advantage of using Sierra bullets is that you can call them up and they will give you "accuracy loads" over the phone.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
It is interesting that despite all the gun rag writer's statements about each rifle being unique, and barrel vibrations and everything else, certain calibers eg. 30.06, 308, 300WM do seeem to have standard loads that tend to shoot well no matter what the rifle is. They may not be the BEST load, but they do get you close. M1 Garand loads seem to be the same way. Any way, stillbeeman, thanks for the reinforcement. Now, having said that, certain rifles may be different eg. full stock (Mannlicher style) rifles which can be very frustrating.
Kudude, exactly right! I have a 30 or more year old Lyman manual that lists accuracy loads.
Peter.

There are inherently accurate cartridges. And there are inherently accurate loads that work best in those cartridges.

Markhpb
new member

Posted 11 April 2008 23:19
Hey guys,

After looking through all the manuals, and reading in this post I have come to the conclusion that there are alot of variables that affect accuracy. I am loading for a 30-06 winchester model 70XVR. Where do I start as far as seating depth, which powder, which bullet? I want to start with 165gr nos bt since I have alot of them on hand. I also have several powders that will work for the 30-06. I guess what I am getting at is where do I start? There are an infinate number of possibilities with just one bullet and one powder (adjusting seating depth). That I could possibly shoot out the barrel before I even get on to the next one.

Where Do I start?

Posts: 13 | Location: Buckeye, AZ | Registered: 19 July 2007



With the Cases !. Are you hunting or paper punching or both ?. You have received a good deal of correct information already , as others have posted .

Ensuring all cases are as Close as possible weight , length , neck trueness and thickness . Use the same prepared cases for reloading no matter which powders you choose to start with .

I have found by simply shooting loaded cases in my Weapons chamber , then preparing those cases saves a LOT OF TIME !.

Load middle of the road , don't waste a bunch of time loading boxes and boxes of ammo . # 10 of each loading will do to start . Shoot a couple of fouling shots of what ever ammo .

Now on your precise reloads .
Don't shoot all 10 in a row , only half . Then shoot another loading , do this with all the different loadings you've made up .

WHAT EVER YOU DO DON'T OVER HEAT THE BARREL !.

Don't heat the barrel up take a minute or two between shots , change your target after 5 shots MARK the targets as to the loads . Wright them down in a note book after words is fine , you have the targets to look at .

Clean with a dry patch only if your going to clean between groups . It depends on how fouled the bore gets .

Start with a powder load middle of the road , next #10 go down .5 grain. Then up .5 grain or by 1.0 grain if you wish . Make absolutely sure you have a STEADY BENCH and SQUEEZE the trigger the same each and every time .

Which ever powder and load gives you the best accuracy is where you start fine tunning up or down powder wise sometimes primer wise and then adjust for bullet length or off the lands .

I also forgot to tell you STAY with 1 Over all cartridge length to start with DON'T be concern ed with off the lands .
That comes after you've fined tunned everything else . IMO any way .

Hope that helps , I'm sure I'll catch flack as I've forgotten something .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

...there are inherently accurate loads that work best in those cartridges.

Hey Folks, I disagree with all the above posters who believe this quote. Too many variables for it to be true in all rifles chambered for the same cartridge.

And it is easy enough for folks to prove if they have some buddies with firearms chambered for the same cartridge.

There are two problems with the concept. First a Beginner may get the idea it is OK to just dump the supposed "accuracy" load in the case and begin loading. Everyone should always Develop the Load from below.

Second, there is a higher probability that the supposed accuracy load is off by a 1-3grains from the actual most accurate load. And by being duped into believing there is a shortcut, the end user may never know the actual accuracy potential of his rifle.

This is one of the HUGE false myths of rookiegreens ocw fiasco.

Best of luck to all you folks.

quote:

quote:
...there are inherently accurate loads that work best in those cartridges.
Hey Folks, I disagree with all the above posters who believe this quote. Too many variables for it to be true in all rifles chambered for the same cartridge.

And it is easy enough for folks to prove if they have some buddies with firearms chambered for the same cartridge.

There are two problems with the concept. First a Beginner may get the idea it is OK to just dump the supposed "accuracy" load in the case and begin loading. Everyone should always Develop the Load from below.

Second, there is a higher probability that the supposed accuracy load is off by a 1-3grains from the actual most accurate load. And by being duped into believing there is a shortcut, the end user may never know the actual accuracy potential of his rifle.

This is one of the HUGE false myths of rookiegreens ocw fiasco.

Best of luck to all you folks.

Now we have got something that actually rings true to my personal findings. Take the Nosler manual #4 and their most accurate powder tested, at their most accurate loading, of the dozens of calibers I've tested with their bullets and most accurate load- NOT A SINGLE ONE HAS EVER BEEN THE MOST ACCURATE LOAD IN ONE OF MY RIFLES. IIRC Lyman doesn't even test their accuracy loads for accuracy, but instead lists them for having the most consistant(uniform) internal balistics, although I could be wrong. Several loading manuals state that the best accuracy will USUALLY be achieved when the bullet jumps between .005 and .020" to rifling, but I have encountered several rifles when using Hornady bullets that always delivered their best accuracy when seated to the cannalure, now we are talking a long jump here. If you want to find the best combination for your rifle, you have got to shoot it, tweek it, experiment, life is too short not to shoot. How concentric and consistant you load your ammo has a very big effect on accuracy.
I have no affiliation with HotCore, don't even know the guy.

with all this inherently this and inherently that, "and such things" the gobernator I went to the Speer Bullets web site and copied this for your enjoyment:
Q.
What bullet and powder is going to be the most accurate load for my new rifle?

A.
Sorry, we don't have your rifle here, nor do we use a crystal ball. What shoots well in our rifles may not work in yours. Each rifle and set of components combine in a unique way, making an exact prediction of accuracy in another rifle impossible. Any accuracy load we list would only show that it was the most accurate load in our test gun, and may not be as accurate in your gun. Only your gun can show you what is best through your testing the components you are interested in using.

Now that sounds like a bullet company that just gave an honest answer- forget the smoke and mirrors- just the facts mam, just the facts

This is my favorite part of acquiring a new rifle.
There's effort involved with working up a new load, but if you enjoy handloading like I do, it's all part of the fun.

First I figure out what a particular load will be used for: whitetails, elk, buffalo, etc. and decide on the bullet (brand, weight, construction) based on that.

After purchasing a box of those bullets, I buy another box of the cheapest bullets of the same caliber and weight. I'm going to use these cheap bullets to start.

First I make up a dummy cartridge to find out where the ogive of the bullet touches the lands of the rifling, and then I set the bullet a few thousands of an inch deeper. I save this as my reference.
(When I work with my good/expensive bullets I'll use the dummy again, which is close but NOT exact reference for the better bullet..and again measure the COAL where the good bullet touches the lands, and then set the good bullet deeper.)

I check my reloading manuals and the on-line references for that particular cartridge and decide which powder to use.

Rarely though I'll encounter a cartridge where I have to try 4 or more different powders to get where I want to be. My 400 Whelen A.I. was like that, and it was someone here at AR that finally told me about AA2230 powder in that particular cartridge. He was dead on, and it wasn't in any reference I could find.

From there I work up slowly to the maximum velocities I want with the cheap bullets, and of course dial in the scope at the same time.

Now I'm ready for my good (and usually expensive) bullets.

I back off a few grains from the best load I worked up with the cheap bullets, and record velocities with my chrono as I work back up to full power loads with the good bullets.

Since I'm doing all this shooting from a rest, I can usually get a handle on what's starting to happen with a given load: groups getting tighter with more velocity (or not), velocities slowly increasing with more powder, etc.

Sometimes I get a surprise: my 25-284 just doesn't shoot Nosler partitions worth a damn.
It does however shoot 100 grain TSX bullets into a 0.5 to 0.75 inch group at 200 yards.

It's not a bad idea to have a fall back "second best" bullet you can choose if your first choice doesn't shoot well.

After that, you're done shooting the good stuff (except for adjusting the scope), and you can finish out the box of cheap bullets in off-hand target practice.

Garrett

Sorry, but IMO there are inherently accurate rounds and loads for those rounds.

Is every rifle chambered in those rounds inherently accurate? Hell no!

The inherently accurate rounds are the ones that with the minimal effort come on target the quickest and do it with a wider range of powders. One such round that comes to mind is the 308 Winchester.

Is the 308 Winchester a great shooter with a 110 grain or a 200 grain bullet? Generally not but there are 308 rifles out there that shoot them just fine. Feed the 308 Win 150-180 grain bullets and it doesn’t take long to work up a load in a good gun.

I could have saved myself a bunch of time . Had I bothered to read Hot Core's Load development instructions on another earlier post !. They Are Correct IMO !.

How ever all of you are WRONG when it comes to

inherently accurate rounds !. Factory rounds are just that !. They're not the best nor the most accurate they are simply sized correctly charged correctly and are SAFE when fired from any modern firearm in which they were chambered for !.

The Rookie will think we've all gone over the edge . He has the Info now it's up to him .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Hey swheeler, I don't see a thing I disagree with in your posts. Going to hurt my reputation.

Heck, I even agreew with the good ole boys from Speer - imagine that!
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Hey Dr.K, And the Factory Ammo seems to get better every year. Makes all the little Reloading Tricks more important to be able to better them.

HC,

I don't necessarily disagree with your proposed response; however, I'd point out that with regard to most cartridges there are more than three powders that will produce max velocity.

Now you and I know that our choice would be (1) the one that fills the case to at least 95% of max capacity, and (2) the one we have used before and are comfortable with (preferably-meets both criteria.)

Similarly, I generally use Nosler BT's for load development finding they are close to a match bullet in accuracy, and then switch to Partitions.

Regarding seating depth, the chambers on most rifles are cut to SAAMI specs. The OAL length provided in most manuals takes that into consideration, and will achieve a good starting point.

Have you ever noticed how most "accuracy loads" meet these criteria?

I have found that playing with the powder charge once I get to an acceptable velocity, with the seating depth and finally different primers can make a small improvement in groups.

But for a new guy, with a new rifle wanting to develop a load, I think the accuracy loads published in most manuals are a good place to start, WHEN DEVELOPED IN THE TIME HONORED, WORK UP TO THE CHARGE METHOD. That is in caps because I don't want to be accused of leading new guys astray.

Good shooting to you. Kudude

quote:

Hey swheeler, I don't see a thing I disagree with in your posts. Going to hurt my reputation.

Heck, I even agreew with the good ole boys from Speer - imagine that!
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I just wanted to make sure I wasn't accused of stroking your ego! or any of that good buddy crap....

Hi,

this might be worth a read; Dan Newberry's Optimal Charge Weight Load Development

Hey Kudude, Looks like a fine Method you have listed. That is one of the interesting things about Reloading - there are a lot of good ways to go about doing it without getting into UNSAFE methods for the beginners.

With one exception - the plagerized and basterdized rookiegreen(aka dan newberry) ocw fiasco.

Hey BSA, Don't take that as tossing stones on you, because rookiegreen used the "never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method" as the basis for "his" disaster. Everything rookie green changed downgraded the probability of locating the best possible Harmonic Cluster (with the least amount of components). Thus reducing the possibility of attaining the most accurate Load.

But it got worse, he got laughed off this Board due to recommending UNSAFE Reloading practices. When the clinton hit the fan, a lot of folks spoke up about the lack of SAFETY in his posts which caused him to spread his UNSAFE ignorance elsewhere.

Best of luck to you folks.

I tried the Creighton Audette Method today with Two different powders. I tried IMR 4350 and got a good cluster around 55.8 grs. I also tried H380 and the result did not make me as happy. I got clusters at 54.7 and 55.9grs. I am going to work up loads for each of the clusters as well as try this method out with 4381sc. I would have shot that powder today as well, but it got too windy.

Hey Mark, Glad to hear it is working well for you too.

Best of luck with the Fine Tuning.