I understand some people here have pushed cartridges well beyond the books to failure.

I would like to know what fails first? What signs did you see before the failure? Are their any �standard items that can allow you to push the limits further or push them safer?

BTW, I plan on continuing to push the pressure and velocity limits, but not the safety limits.

Well not sure what your after but here is a suggestion.. If I was goin to see what gives first I would start at max load and go up from there by about .5grain increments.. More then likely your bolt will stick first or blow a primer but you really cant tell.. I know I wouldn't be pulling the trigger on it though.. I would strap it to something tie a string to it and get wayyy back and give it a pull.. I dont see why you want to unless you got a few guns around that you dont want anymore.. You never know what will happen.. Your treading on dangerous grounds so tread lightly

6.5 Bandit

My understanding is that the first thing to give is going to be the brass case. The steel parts of the gun are much stronger than the brass. Once the hot gases find a way out of the brass case however, they will wreck the gun.

I have asked about the feasibility of using steel cases and going way above maximum loads. I have not had any intelligent person tell me that's a good idea. For one thing, the steel cases that are available tend to be for military rounds, and you'll get more velocity out of a sanely loaded 300 WM than you ever will out of an overloaded steel-cased 7.62 x 39. Maybe there's a supplier of steel 30-378 cases. Let me know if you find him.

H. C.

HenryC470, I can tell you that steel cases are not the way to go. They expand to fill the camber, but do not contract like brass cases. So the case gets stuck, even when not close to max load.

For the layman without access to expensive equipment...

I load up until I get a flat primer or ejector mark, whichever comes first, then back off two grains...

If you have a chronograph there is a point wherein an additional grain of powder will only give you 10 to 15 FPS increase, so that is not enough to go forward, then I back off a grain and call it good.

I keep it simple and don't get quagmired in therory, and its worked for me, I have not blown a rifle as yet...

If you wait until the bolt sticks then you have already gone way to far, and but for the grace of God, and good rifles, it didn't blow..

6.5 bandit, I am looking more for pistols. In rifles, I have always been able to gun up. When I needed more power, I buy a bigger gun. I have never really �needed� anything more than 223, 308, 45-70. In pistols, it is a slightly different story.

I like the concept of 45super. What I don�t like is the lack of reliable data. I assume I am pushing the limits, but unless you have already been there how do you know?

Now let me take this one step further. I think it is possible to push the 9mm, but I am not willing to until I understand the signs better. So I will continue to have moderate 9mm ammo.

You can say I have lost my nerve to push any further, until I understand the limits.

45 Super, now that warms my heart
best thing that ever happened to a 1911
i've used this data and have had no problem with any of the loads
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20Super&Weight=230&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

ddunn,

I have seen a S&W 44mag lock up when it got way to hot.. Couldnt even budge the cylinder.. Now that same load was fired in a Ruger Super BlackHawk and it fired it just fine.. But I have to agree with the rest of the guys.. Best way is to fire it over a chrony that way you can tell whats really goin on.. You will come to a point of no return as I like to call it.. Meaning you will only gain a few fps if any at all when you add more powder.. Adding more powder after that is rather pointless..

6.5 Bandit

I have loaded under those numbers and question the pressure. I am using a Glock21 with a guide rod and 24lb spring and a Colt 1911 GC with a 24lb spring and guide rod. My issues are with the Glock21.

I started off using the standard barrel with the unsupported 6 O�clock position. I didn�t see any difference in the primers, but I did see the case bulge. I stopped load development with that barrel and purchased an after market barrel.

With the new barrel I worked up to the same load. I don�t have any case bulges, but am I at max pressure? I am below listed values, but every gun is different and most loads are tested in 1911 guns.

Shooting over the chronograph is probably the best idea at this point; I would just like a second way of knowing what max pressure for this gun is.

6.5 bandit with the S&W 44mag, what failed?

I have been overloading most days for years.

Today was typical.
I filled the .223 cases to the brim with IMR4895 [27 gr.], seated very long the 60 gr bullet so the bullet will be seated more by the lands, put it in my Ruger #1, and shot it.
3485 fps
.001" extractor groove expansion
I did it 10 times:
I got a 2.1" 5 shot group at 100m the first time.
I got a 1.25" 5 shot group at 100m the second time.

So much for overloading, I reduced to 25 gr [3325 fps] and spent the rest of the day pursuing an accuracy load with various seating depths.


Some guns are stronger than the brass.
Some guns will hold together for destroying brass some of the time.
Some guns are weak, like the CZ52 pistol, despite what the load books say.

OK Clark,
What is going to break or show signs of over pressure first with my Glock21 doing the 45 super thing?

How far can I push the limits on 9mm? I will be shooting it is a Glock26, Berretta92fs, and soon a Glock17.

ddunn,

To be honest I couldnt tell ya what gave on the s&w.. I seen it happen at the range and didnt get a chance to scope it out..

You should check out some of the threads over on glocktalk.com there is always threads on there about glocks blowing up..
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=a060a109e94f98018b19a83a1b08be31&threadid=228952&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

there is a rather recent one...
here is another one on a 21 blowing up
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230134


6.5 Bandit

I am on Glocktalk. The recent Glock21 Kaboom tells me they didn�t have a minor over powered round. It sounds like a MASSIVE over powered round.

I hate to throw out accusations, but something is not right. A police department has a Kaboom. They change ammo. They have another Kaboom. They replace the NEW Glock 21 45ACP with a different Glock gun. Something is wrong here. I see a couple options.

1. Bad batch of Glocks
2. Bad batch of Ammo (slim chance)
3. Technique used in training that causes set back (Hmm, possibilities)
4. Sabotage, range officer substitutes heavy round for normal round.

If I had to guess I would say #3.

ddunn,

I dont want to start a argument but let me ask you this.. I have seen on that site that Glock says do not shoot reloads for there guns.. If this is true why do you think that is?? IMO Glock's are weak and cant take the pressure like a 1911 could.. I would like to see a glock and a 1911 side by side in a pressure test and see which one gives first.. My bet would be the glock blew before the 1911. Like I said im not trying to start a argument I am just stating my opinion's. I wouldnt try and hotrod glocks I would hate to see something bad happen to you and your toys..

6.5 Bandit

Given a modern, strong bolt action rifle, the brass cartridge case is the weakest link in the system, and will fail first! The first sign of failure is stretched or "blown" primer pockets.

When you get to the point that the first shot of any given load stretches the primer pocket to the point that new primers will fall out of the pocket, you are way beyond the elastic limit of the brass case, and are in dangerous territory! Any such load should be cut by at least 10%!!

You can go beyond this point if you use steel cases, and not too many years back, such cases were available and ads for them were in HANDLOADER and RIFLE magazines. I forget the name of the company that made them. But steel cases have their own drawbacks. brass is best, and one should try to learn to live within the limits imposed by using brass cases!!

6.7 bandit, You have ask a very good question.

I think Glock puts that in the manual mainly to protect themselves from lawyers. When I bought my Colt 1911 the manual states not to use reloads. I have seen a manual for a S&W that said not to use any reloads and anything except unjacketed lead.

You are defiantly right about the Glock vs. the Colt with factory barrels. The Glock barrel is very loose and unsupported in the 6 o�clock position. The brass will bulge with a hot load. In addition the standard Glock barrel does not work with lead. Glocks are not rifled like other barrels. Most of the Glock Kabooms are either 40S&W or lead related, or both.

Lets talk about when things go wrong.
From what I have been told when a Glock fails, no body usually gets hurt. The magazine catch breaks and usually that is it. If someone really works at screwing up, the trigger blows out, the front frame guide rods separate from the frame and no body get seriously hurt.

I think I am as safe, if not safer working up to 45super with the Glock. Am I right?

Can you show me a pierced primer?
Should I expect a loose primers or primer pockets before pierced primers?
Should I expect any damage to the gun with a pierced primer?
When the Brass failed on the Glock, what damage happened to the gun?

I don't have a picture of a pierced primer, but it looks like a hole in the primer that is about the size of the firing pin hole in the breech face. Glocks have a rectangular hole, and I can't remember a pierced primer in a Glock.

I have only done case bulges in Glocks.
The above picture of three cases was in a Kel-Tec P11, and there was a long list of dammage with the case head failure incident.
I have had the primer fall out from plenty of rifles, but to get a primer to fall out, good case support is needed. I have done it only in Tokarev pistols.

The way I play the game is to look for the case bulge, and go the other way when I see it.

Thanks all
I think I am in the safe, but will begin to inspect and measure my spent cases. In additions I will work over a Chrono as weather permits.