Hi

I'm hoping to pick the collective brain of the forum members!

I recently started reloading for a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 - 9.5 x 57 MS

I slowly started with a load of 41 gr of IMR 3031 that gave me about 1750fps and I increased the load by 1 gr of powder up to 44 gr which gave a velocity of 1945 fps
I use standard rifle primers and a 270gr RNSN .375" Woodleigh bullet
Bear in mind the gun in question is the rifle version with 24 " barrel and not the carbine

Every cartridge that came out of the gun had protruding primers with rounded edges and a ring on the neck and just below the shoulder of the cartridge

No signs of excessive pressure were noted ie Heavy recoil or a stiff bolt

So the question is - Is this a headspace problem or is this insufficient velocity not reseating the primer
The primers stand about 0.0022" proud

You don't mention if you are using new brass. If you have some fired brass, back off your sizing die a turn or so and then keep adjusting and sizing until you can feel a slight drag when closing the bolt on a resized case. This will take out any headspace issue, then load and try your loads. Even with light loads of powder shooting cast bullets I don't get protruding primers so your issue is very likely headspace.

Shallow shouldered cases can cause headspace issues with some cartridges e.g. 400 Whelen. 10,75x68, etc., if sizing is not carefully done.

You can try to make a doubble shoulder with a .40cal expander to see if it can hold the cartridge back. The marks on the case may show your chamber are out of specification a chamber cast will show how big it is.

Yes, that is due to excessive headspace, not pressure. Do what they said above to fit the brass to the chamber, and do not size it back when you reload.
Another way is to use a starting load and seat the bullet jammed into the rifling; that will keep the brass rearward and make the shoulder move forward.
Specifications do not matter; just make the brass fit the chamber. Unless you are going to set the barrel back so the chamber fits the brass. No.

Maybe compare base to shoulder length on fired vs new unfired brass. The ring behind the shoulder in the fired case may be where the original shoulder was.
Could be the barrel was rechambered for a longer case. The ring just behind the case mouth may be due to this also.

What is happening is that the brass case is holding all the pressure, (the brass alone can hold a lot more than most people think; up to about 40 K psi; read Ackley's tests), and the primer backs out to touch the bolt face.
Due to the chamber being longer than the brass, or vice versa.
The fix is outlined above. A couple of methods, just like forming brass for a wildcat. Which you effectively have.

What DPCD said re cause and solution.

I'd toss those once-fired brass cases. That's alot of excess headspace, and the cases likely lost wall thickness from near the head. You may be able to feel this with a dental pick or wire. Start with fresh brass fire-forming using either technique outlined by DPCD.

Hi Guys

Thanks for the great input and sage advice

What would be better going forward ?

Expanding the neck to .40 Calibre and forming a false shoulder to headspace on or just jamming a bullet into the lands?

Kind regards

I would not toss any cases; they are not stretched much if at all; if they were the primers would not be protruding. Even if they are, it won't hurt anything.
The less work method is the jam the bullet into the rifling method and is the one I use when forming brass. Has to be tight; the firing pin blow is very powerful too.

quote:

Originally posted by Frikkie Badenhorst:
The primers stand about 0.0022" proud

Pics suggest alot more stretch than 0.0022". A feeler would help decide on the cases.

A good buddy of mine had the two ring problem when a GS simply re chambered a .308 to 30-06 . roger

I think the OP meant twenty two thousandths instead of two.
Anyway, that does not translate into case stretch. Not sure how anyone can deduce that from backed out primers. Even if they are stretched any, as long as they are stabilized at the right length, no worries.
The OP can check them though..

Below is from the Sierra manual, read the last paragraph.



Below 7mm Mauser cases fired in a milsurp rifle with excessive headspace and low pressure. If the bullets had been jammed into the rifling with a warmer load these cases would have formed to the chamber and the primers would be flush with the base of the case.

These primers if removed would look like the base of a rivet or a mushroom. Meaning the exposed part of the primer expanded and bulged outward.

the ring on the shoulder bugs me .. oh, and that the primers are backed WAY out ... use a sharpie or black the case, and run through your resizing die until you feel "real" pressure .. it looks like the WHOLE case is sliding forward "a lot" .. looks like 2mm from here, but that a sWAg ..

something about this really bugs me more than 'grown' headspace .. like your dies are off .. a bunch ...

Low pressure loads may highlight the problem but increasing the pressure will not fix the problem. The problem is excessive headspace. If the OP mean't 0.022" primer protrusion that is way too much headspace. Increasing the pressure of the loads will just lead to incipient case head separation.
Get rid of the excessive headspace by only partially sizing the case to reduce the 'head clearance' to a minimum. I refer to this as headspace but I usually get told off for doing so on this forum. Technically the head clearance is not the same as headspace but they both manifest themselves as being the unwanted excessive gap between the bolt face and case head which leads to protruding primers with light loads, very flattened primers with normal pressure loads, incipient case head separations and rooted cases

If the protrusion was misstated by a decimal placement typo, case stretch may have been nil.

But I would not just guess about this. Easy enough to check.

I do not reload brass having incipient separations as revealed by a probe or obvious external appearance. Realize you can mostly eliminate further stretch by neck or partial sizing. I've done it. My experience may be singular, but some pieces eventually develop a partial or complete head separation. Usually no big deal (like head failure) but it would stink to need a broken case extractor on a hunt. I don't reload brass with incipient neck splits, either.

quote:

Originally posted by Frikkie Badenhorst:
Hi Guys

Thanks for the great input and sage advice

What would be better going forward ?

Expanding the neck to .40 Calibre and forming a false shoulder to headspace on or just jamming a bullet into the lands?

Kind regards

I prefer the false shoulder for more positive headspacing. The blow of the firing pin can possibly push the bullet back into the case a bit prior to the pressure from ignition building sufficiently, thus re-creating the headspace problem.

However, I'm assuming that you are making your 9.5x57 (or is it a 9.3?) cases from some other case like a .30-06 or 8x57. If using a .30-06 case as the parent you can simply back your FL die off of the shellholder the appropriate amount to place the "new" shoulder in the right place for your chamber.

I'd neck size and move on.

low pressure and poorly fit cases is what we are seeing here.
I see the same thing [minus the rings] on one of my wild cat rounds on the first low pressure firing that starts moving brass to fill the chamber before hitting it with a full pressure load to set the final shape.

Hi there


Thanks again for all the valuable input from all the contributors


Sorry for the mix up in the measurements

It is indeed 0.022 " protrusion of the Primer

The calibre is 9.5x57 Mannlicher Schoenauer

The brass is brand new Quali-Cartridge brass

I did not sized the brass so it is not the sizing die

Hi Frikkie,

I answer your question in another forum. I am reading this right now.
I am with Stonecreek!
At your question about creating a false shoulder vs. jamming a bullet on the lands, I prefer the first option any time!!! Because the possibility mentioned by SC. And because doing this you can load that case with the false shoulder as a normal one! Not need to use a bullet, primer and powder only to form the case.
I have made that many times and I don't know a better way....

Good luck!

Any suggestions in regards to expander stem size?

I see the next biggest calibre offered by Sinclair in their expander mandrels are
.408" calibre

I was just going to post the same question. I'm having the same problem with my 8x57 mauser Verguerio. Would excessive head space also cause accuracy issues?

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:
I was just going to post the same question. I'm having the same problem with my 8x57 mauser Verguerio. Would excessive head space also cause accuracy issues?

Not necessarily but allowing a case to fire-form to the chamber and then only neck sizing or partial F/L sizing to maintain that snug fit in the chamber can help accuracy, An undersized case rattling around in a chamber doesn't help with bullet alignment to the bore.
It all comes down to how much leade is in the bore, if minimal, case alignment is not so critical but either way snug fitting cases in a chamber will give the longest life when reloading.

Thanks mate.

Hi Frekkie,

The ideal expander would be a gently conical one. The .408", if it is so, should works. Other option is to make one. A gunsmith or a lathe operator can make a perfect tapered expander button of around .400" diameter.

Good luck!

hey.. can you mike the shoulder of an unfired round and the "new" shoulder.. when you said you didn't resize them, it triggered a thought

Or take a photo of a new unfired case sitting next to a fired case.

The rifle may be another caliber or been rechambered.

The case shoulder should be .022 past the fired case shoulder location in your photo.