The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading AOL and 'off the lands'?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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First, I apologize if you have seen this on another board. I load for 'hunting' accuracy that I define as 1.5 moa or better with select F/Ls and H/L. I load for 08, 57 and 06 based cartridges. I usualy load to factory OALs and all of my guns shoot under 1.5" at 100 yds. A friend just bought a 257 Roberts in a 'new' Ruger 77. It dosn't shoot F/Ls well. We are thinking that it might be long throated. Uding the 'smokey bullet' it seem to be waaay of the lands using F/Ls. Any idea about this? How far do you generally begin loading off the lands. thanks, capt david    "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | ||
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There's another thread with a lot more detail in progress you might also read it. With a "new" rifle, I'd say there's something besides OAL and distance from the lands involved. This issue is one of the small issues target shooters play with, that usually only has very minor effect hunting rifles. Smoking the bullet or using dry erase marker aren't bad methods to tell if you hitting the lands but invest in a Stoney Point Gauge for best results. | |||
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I use a new case with a slit cut lengthwise through the neck, take a bullet, load it long, chamber this assembly and lock the action. The bullet will seat to where it touches the lands. I then carefully eject the assembly and measure the oal. | |||
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How I use the Stoney Point Back to the still. Spelling, I don't need no stinkin spelling The older I get, the better I was. | |||
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Briefly, I use the Stoney Point gauges and I always measure to the ogive, NOT to the OAL. If you measure bullet length at random out of the box, you'll find quite a discrepancy in their lengths. Bear in Fairbanks Unless you're the lead dog, the scenery never changes. I never thought that I'd live to see a President worse than Jimmy Carter. Well, I have. Gun control means using two hands. | |||
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If you are using the loads for hunting as you said. I would stay with the "listed" OAL. I would think that reliability is #1. This means all cartridges must feed into and out of the rifle's mag. Chamber with out any problem. And unload from chamber and/or mag ,again without any problem. The exercise of how close or how far from the lands is one for the Nth degree of fine target loading. You have already settled on a case, bullet, powder, charge weight, primer. Just my thoughts muck | |||
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And one other thing. Loading to the lands might cause a bullet to stick in the lands which would fill your action with loose powder when extracting a live round. Back to the still. Spelling, I don't need no stinkin spelling The older I get, the better I was. | |||
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I load Barnes Triple Shocks in all calibers and they do not seem to be sensitive to how far off the lands they are seated. Barnes recommends .05" so that's where I start every load and haven't had to change it yet. Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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With other than barnes bullets I load 10/1000 off the lands. I measure using the dowl technique. I find this to be generally the best starting point for accuracy and still provides reliable feeding. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I've gone to a fair bit of trouble to measure distance to the lands, and then usually have to seat way back to fit into the mag. The difference with single loading and the short ones was minimal, and for hunting, negligible. JL. | |||
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Thanks Bill, but I'm still wondering how they work. You seem to be measuring distance to the lands, Plus the length of a big red blob of metal. Is there a "constant" to be deducted?? John L. | |||
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JAL, The "red blob" is the Stoney Point "comparator" tool, the "red rod" works with a empty tapped casing to find the lands. You can measure the "blob" and use all that higher math you learned in school to get the real COL lenght, or do as I do and leave it in the figure, useing the total of the tool and cartridge as my COL. Remember we`re just looking for a referance point relating to that cartridge and that chamber. The number we give it has no other real meaning. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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What you are measuring is the distance from the "ogive of the bullet" which is the first part of the bullet to hit the lands to the end of the case. You write that figure down after measuring it several times to get a consistant number. That will be "real close" to seating to the lands. You can also use that number to figure out how much erosion to the throat or leade is occuring. When you using your seating die to seat your bullet, that number minus ever how far you want to be off the lands becomes your new target to measure. Measuring from the tip of the bullet is not consistent. Measure from the ogive is. There are all kinds of methods to do this but I find that the Stoney Point along with a digital caliper is the easiest. Well, to me anyway. Back to the still. Spelling, I don't need no stinkin spelling The older I get, the better I was. | |||
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Load for your magazine lenght, where as this is a gun you use for hunting. Then work your load up or down from there. If your magazine is longer the you chamber then load it for your chamber lenght. Most of all, go and get some Stoney Point tools. This will help you down the road. | |||
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I've been working on loads for a couple of .270's and a .25-06. On the .270s, I measured from the muzzle to the bolt face, then dropped a bullet through the chamber and lightly held it in position with a wooden dowel and measured from the muzzle to the tip of the bullet. On both the .270's the measured max OAL is something like 0.2" longer than factory specs-- but there is no way to load a bullet to that length in the magazine. IIRC I end up with a max length of about .030 or so longer than the spec'd length as being about all I can stuff in the magazine with a little clearance. | |||
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I finally went back to the smokey bullet method (although I use marker) because the Stoney Point was giving me readings from where the Stoney Point thought the case should start instead of where the case actually is with the bolt installed. Then I went "duh" that is why go and no-go guages use the bolt. Anyway, if the OAL is greater than the mag length, just go as long as you can and go from there. If not I do the smokey bullet thing several times to eliminate as much of my error as possible. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I'm w/ bm-3 here, I start w/ the OAL to fit my mag. unless I'm loading for one of my Ruger #1s. I still use the "put the bullet in a fired case & chamber methode" for determining max. OAL & then back off 0.01" LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Explain please, cause there are a lot of us here who use Stoney Points.  Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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woods, let me see if I can explain. When you put the modified case on the plunger and push it in the chamber, the case shoulder certainly makes contact with the front of the chamber. What about the base of the case? Is the plunger the exact distance from the case shoulder (front of the chamber) as it would be if the bolt was used instead of the plunger? I will guarantee it is not. It may be very close, or not, but not the same. In the real world of the chamber, the bullet headspaces on the shoulder and the bolt face. The Stoney Point simply does not take in to account sloppy, or in some cases excessive, headspace. If every chamber was the exact length of the provided cartridge, life would be perfect, but they are not. If the closed bolt sits .01 shorter than the cartridge you stuffed in the chamber, then the calculations you carefully made are all .01" off. Like I said, not much probably, but if you are spending all this time, I think it is because you want almost exact. Don't get me wrong, and before I get really flamed, I think the Stoney Point can be mdae to be more exact by sending them a case that has been fired in your chamber so the effect of headspacing in your specific rifle is taken into account. Belted mags are not exactly the same issue since they supposedly headspace on the belt. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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For those of us who use Stoney Point chamber-all gauges, I found that the curved model works better. The cable it uses does not give the false readings as the straight one does.  | |||
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just a point of correction.. aol is an internet service provider, bullets have OAL .. over all length touching -.0275 is my rule of thumb. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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A way to use the Stoney Point and remove that "slop" is to send a fired case to Stoney Point and have them thread it. Or you can special order the die and cut your own threads. I don't think the slop amount to that much but I'm not "bench rest" competing. In my Ruger # 1s, I don't have to worry about a magazine length. but in my CZ550 Varmint, yep, it must fit unless I want a single shot. I think the main thing is, when you find a "sweet spot" and have measured it, it's easier to duplicate it later. We're not shooting bullets to the moon.  Back to the still. Spelling, I don't need no stinkin spelling The older I get, the better I was. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Mc: I think the main thing is, when you find a "sweet spot" and have measured it, it's easier to duplicate it later. QUOTE] Not wanting to buy a Stoney after what I'd read somewhere, and the rod down the barrel trick the only way I've got definite measurements, I then used that same bullet to make a dummy cartridge to adjust the seating stem down to. And seeing as I was loading from 50gr to 80gr projectiles for different rifles I soon got tired of stuffing around and bought a Hornady Mic. adjusting seater. Now for a particular bullet I just dial in (say) 352 in a matter of seconds. John L. | |||
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Buy the Sinclair tool instead. It utilizes a FIRED CASE FROM YOUR CHAMBER to obtain measurements. That accompanied by a bullet dropped into your throat, and you have a REPEATABLE measurement. I looked at the stoney point, but after considering how much it wil cost to have that many cases sent in and modified for all my calibers, I went to the Sinclair tool and never looked back. Takes about 3 minutes and it's spot on every time. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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Dan, you`re right "slop" isn`t real important as long as the measurement is repetable. The idea is once you get the lenght you want and can return to it accurately it doesn`t matter if the cartridge is really .002" longer or shorter than you read off your caliper, as long as you get the same lenght everytime. You can do this without a case that has been fireformed. The only problem I see with this is you can`t use another modified case of different headspace and measure to the same lenght and have it the same as the original. You don`t have to send in your cases for modification, you can simply drill and tap a fireformed case your self and have the same thing you`ll get from Stoney Point. The tap size has been brought up on the boards often enough it should be easy to find. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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A few weeks ago I picked up two tap's and they are 5/16 x 36. These had to be ordered in. These are something that I could not find within 100 mile of here. They run around ten dollars each. | |||
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Well If I use the Stoney Point "Head & Shoulders" gauge on a fired 30-06 case ( 4.0445" ) and then on the modified case ( 4.039" ) then doesn't this give me a correction factor? Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citzens ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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You can correct if you wish but I don`t feel it really matters. Think about it. You measure and find the distance to the lands is say, 4.570" with the Stoney Point tool and case. You subtract .005" to load off the lands to start and make up a few rounds at .010", .015" and find the rifle likes the bullet at .010" off -4.060". Now, when you made these loads up you used a case of your own, fired in your rifle, not the Stoney Point case. The tool will repetedly show this same measurement every time you use these cases and bullet if you set your die to load to this lengh. If the TRUE lenght is .006" off the lands doesn`t really matter the relationship of the bullet to the lands is all we really care about. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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Ol`Joe Good point and I understand that repeatability is the primary concern. Like the old Loran sytem for positioning, very good at returning to the same spot but not good at telling you where you were. But let's see if we can move on to GPS. The above example for 30-06 tells me I need to allow 4.0445-4.039=.0055 to adjust my Stoney Point OAL gauge to my chamber. Not enough to matter. Prompted me to measure my 270 and my 300: 270 fired case measures 4.0335, modified case measures 4.0325 for a difference of only .001. Still not enough to matter. But now get this 300 fired case 4.267, modified case 4.252 for a difference of .015. Now if I were trying to seat my bullets .01 off the lands then I would actually be seating them .025, which is better than seating them too close. I suspect that each rifle and each modified case will have it's own correction factor. Looks like another use for the "Head & Shoulders" gauge. Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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