Gidday Guys,

I have just come across this

http://www.shootingtimes.com/a..._081710WO/index.html

Anyone have any ideas on where to get load info for these super powders.

I would be very interested to try and use it to turn the 260 from the efficient tahr killer into a super tahr killer.

This should be interesting

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Shere marketing - and not even clever at that.

I cannot imagine that it should be possible to achive top notch performance from one single powder for all relevant calibers.

They may be special blend powders, but suitable for only a small range of cartridges.

call hornady and ask -

well, darn .. first people complain that hornady uses special powders for these loads that aren't available...

the Hodgdon brings out the powders, and people will complain about, WHAT, exactly?

lots of powder companies are moving towards the new super/extreme/supreme powders. As long as they don't take out h335, i don't mind


Here's a great FOR INSTANCE thats in lots of reloading ... in a exotic combo as 180gr 30-06 and rel22 .. supoerpowders DO make a huge difference - look it up, its likely to be the head and shoulders fastest load for 180gr and 30-06

Well y'all are gonna have to excuse a certified dumbass. All these years I thought it was pressure that sent the bullet down the tube and how much pressure determined how fast it went. If you wanted it to go faster, you increased the pressure. I understand that you can control where along the barrel the pressure peaks and heady stuff like that but still basically pressure equals veleocity. More velocity, more pressure. Unless they've repealed the laws of physics.
I certainly hope that the term "proprietary blend" doesn't set off a rash of dumbasses like me trying to create a super powder by dumping different powders together without a whole lot of knowledge.

Beeman, you are partially correct.
Think of it this way, in baseball, how fast you swing the bat (pressure) is on factor on your swing, follow through (how long that pressure is applied) is equally, if not more important. The new powders are supposed to have a much better pressure curve, and apply it over an extended period of time...

work drives the bullet down the tube .. not peak pressure.. this is why we have "fast" and "slow" powders ... how fast they build pressure.

3,000 PSI will send a 350gr slug over 1400 fps. .. in a purpose built air gun ... bc it exerts pressure the whole time

3,000 PSI in a rifle means a jammed bullet -- bs the pressure is shorter

slow vs fast powders

and EVERY reloading book reinforces this with variable velocities from different powders, at more or less the same peak pressure

rel22+180gr in a 3006 gives 300hh vels.. at the same pressure that i4895 gives much slower vels

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
work drives the bullet down the tube .. not peak pressure.. this is why we have "fast" and "slow" powders ... how fast they build pressure.

and how long the pressure is applied.....

Fast burning powders may build the required pressure but fail to hold the pressure very long while a slow burning powder may keep the pressure against the bullet a lot longer.....

Pressure is not the key ingredient in velocity.....it's time....how long we can keep the pressure on the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I understand that you can control where along the barrel the pressure peaks and heady stuff like that but still basically pressure equals veleocity. More velocity, more pressure. Unless they've repealed the laws of physics..

Hey Beeman, A lot of folks believe that same thing, but that concept is wrong. Many believe you can look at a Velocity on a Chronograph and tell what the Pressure is - but that is bad wrong - and leads to other misconceptions.

It does in fact deal with the Physics, and nothing has changed with the Physics portion. The problem is a misunderstanding of how the "Energy" is transfered by the Powder(expanding Gas) to the Bullet.

Though Peak Pressure is involved, the major factor is retaining the Pressure near MAX over a longer time period. And the "trick" is that during this longer time period, the Volume of the Chamber/Barrel aft of the Bullet Base continues to increase at a rapid rate, whihc would normally Lower the Peak Pressure. However, due to the ingenious new Powders(not a "blend" of current Powders), the controlled Burn allows more Gas to be generated(to fill the increasing Volume as the Bullet moves forward) and yet the Pressure remains at a SAFE MAX(or near a SAFE MAX) level.

Thus, more "Work"(more energy is transfered to the Bullet Base) is done with these new Powders and we are still able to maintain a SAFE Pressure.

Really getting more Bang for the Buck "if" they do not charge more for the new Powders.
-----

Just saw Vapo's post. That would be "dv/dt" in the Physics.

Vapodog

I would think it would be both. A certain amount of pressure for a certain amount of time.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Vapodog

I would think it would be both. A certain amount of pressure for a certain amount of time.

It definitely is.....however one can raise the pressure with a small amount of bullseye.....but one won't get much velocity.....Time plays a greater factor than pressure.....but certainly both are components of velocity.

As an example.....lets say there was a powder that was able to instantly create 40,000 PSI of pressure in a .30-06 case and keep that pressure on the bullet the entire time of travel down the barrel.....I'll wager that it'll have greater velocity than any powder known to man today....even if we raise the pressure to 65,000 PSI with the existing powder.......

Time is that important.....it's how folks like Hornady create their hi-performance ammo....not with higher pressures.....with slower burning powders!!!!

allow me to restate

work is the area under the pressure/time curve ..

shesh ...

quote:

work is the area under the pressure/time curve ..

precisely!

quote:

Time is that important.....it's how folks like Hornady create their hi-performance ammo....not with higher pressures.....with slower burning powders!!!!

And that's why you will not see blue dot in the manuals for rifles.

I understand that you want to have the powder burning as long as possible whilst still in the barrel so as to keep pushing on the bullet; I also understand that if you use a quick powder, it will burn in a short period of time and then the contact between the bullet and the bore becomes drag. Actually it's drag in either case but the slower powder better overcomes the drag by a longer push. Also, I think Mr Newton said something about a body at rest, and a body in motion, etc,etc. So once the bullet is kicked in the ass and started moving, it would take less pressure to keep it moving.
My point is that there are powders that will burn slow enough to handle any length barrel so I am very skeptical about any sort of "new and improved" powder.
The blurb about the powder called it a "proprietary blend", is that incorrect? Has Hornady invented a new powder?

Aside to HC: BTW, I may reload with a rock and a rusty nail but I'm still smart enough to know that a Chrony is one of the very best first "nice to have" items to put on your loading bench. Like someone smarter than me posted: it's like driving without a speedometer nor a gas gauge.

Beeman.
Can you do me a favor? Pick up ANY reloading manual, and turn to the 30-06 for rifle charts.

Please do understand that all those max loads, for "normal" loads (not reduced) are at about the same pressure... by about, let's say they are all within the liability limits of "good load" and law suit.

every max load in the book is ABOUT the same pressure..

the only difference is burn profile ..

"drag" and inertia, are such far ends of the specturm that in a less than 6' barrel in a centerfire rifle.. don't matter

Your chrony will be prove to you.. ever blown the screens off, at 15' ? thats from the powder still expanding with force .. and nah, it's not just (well it is) hot air, as when a compresses gas goes into a larger volume container, at nil relative pressure, it expands and looses pressure, radically.

once engraved and moving, it takes VERY little force to keep it moving.. less force than it takes to move you 3500gr sky screens, AT REST, off your chrono ... and far less than 3000 psi in a big bore air gun.

just saying, pressure AINT the long pole in the tent on velocity.

quote:

Has Hornady invented a new powder?

Kind of. What's actually new are the coatings applied to the powders. Many powders will have a retardant coating to slow down the rate of burn. These retardants help control early peak pressures. As the coating is burned away, the power burn more violently, but by this time there is more volume to fill, so pressure remain contained. So, by using the coatings time under curve can be increased. The old coating did not penetrate the powder kernals very far, and were mostly a surface coating. The new coating actually penetrate deep into the powder kernals. This allows the use of a hotter base powder, that can be retarded over a longer time frame, increasing the time under the pressure curve.

Think of it like going from a cup and core bullet to a bonded bullet. You have the same components, just better chemicals holding them together.

Didn't think they could release this powder!! I have heard rumours about it, but now I am really excited and will have to buy some next year.

Speaking of a new powder....2 years now new, I really like Win780 Supreme in my 7 mag.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Aside to HC: BTW, I may reload with a rock and a rusty nail but I'm still smart enough to know that a Chrony is one of the very best first "nice to have" items to put on your loading bench. ..

Good to see you still have an excellent sense of humor.

Thanks to everyone that tried to help out the resident dumbass.
Antelope sniper, what you said makes sense in an understandable way........ kinda, .....maybe.
I'll ask one of my grandkids to read it and explain it to me.

Your welcome Beeman....it took me awhile to wrap my mind around what they were doing as well! I just want to try some of these powders in my .338 WM.

Back on topic..

All one has to do is dis-assemble one of the Hornady rounds..to see this powcer

I dis -assembled a 30/06 in Hornady's Hot Load ammo..( their Light Magnmum stuff..)

with a 189 grain bullet, they used some powder that was a ball type powder like W 748- H 414- H335- BLC2.. the flake stuff...

it had 72 grains in it, and it was compressed..

did this for a friend, after pulling the bullets, he wanted Nosler Partitions on it instead so, that is what I did for him..

He shot a few to make sure that the pressures were still safe...I ended up doing 5 boxes for him, or a 100 rounds..

I also di-assembled some Leverevolution ammo for someone else, after he bought a box of the flex tip bullets when they became available..

we chronographed it, and then using the flex tip bullets, I was able to duplicate it, with both the same POI and MV by using BLC2.. like 35 to 36 grains.. pretty much the same charge weight used in the factory ammo..

things can change, but this is what I found out by dis-asembling them..Leverevoltuion is easily duplicated... and well, if you want the light magnum stuff..with a different bullet, then pull the bullets off of the factory stuff and seat the bullet of the same weight that you desire....

Or if you want to entertain yourself.. get a box of popcorn .... say you are using a load of Blue Dot.... and then watch Hot Bore go

I have read in several places that if you pulled a bullet out of a Hornady Light Magnum you could not get all the powder back in the case due to the powder being so very compressed.

I take it this was not your experience Seafire?

The Superperformance advertizing reads like Alliant's does when describing their new RL-17 powder and its uniform burn rate. Merg

quote:

I take it this was not your experience Seafire?

it was full to the brim.. when I put it back in, then there was still some left and it was to the rim...

so I just poured it back into my container ( a yogurt cup) and then poured it thru a funnel with a drop tube.. and that worked just fine..

Again, once this powder is avaliable, i will have it pressure tested in the pressure gun like i did with R17...it will be intresting how it compares to R17 and the FEDERAL H.E loads
Daniel

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
Again, once this powder is avaliable, i will have it pressure tested in the pressure gun like i did with R17...it will be intresting how it compares to R17 and the FEDERAL H.E loads
Daniel

Please do let us know. I have a gut feeling the
new Hodgdon powder is very close to RL17.
Superior? Possibly, but my results with RL17
makes it superior to heretofore anything I've
used.

M 98, I missed any post you have given of
pressure testing RL17. What were your results?
Does it, as it seems, have a pretty long
pressure curve that does not spike?

DB
The area under the pressure curve is greater than with conventional powers, the one advantage with R17 is that once you reach about 58 gns in the 06 case your close to maximum, wheras with the FEDERAL H E powder, there was 68 gns of it behind a 180 gn proj in the 06 case so things were really tight/compressed, so this gives you an advantage of useing momo type bullets like the E TIPS/TSX/TTSX with minimal compression of the powder
In the 06 with 58 gns of R17 behind a 180 gn nosler we were getting a vel of 2925 fps @ a pressure of 64,000 psi, with 57gns the vel was 2850 @a pressure of 60,000
with the 200 gn nosler and R17 we got 2700 fps in the 06 with pressures under 65,000 psi

if you want i can foward you my 06 spread sheet with R17 data
Daniel