Hi folk,

I have a WIn 92 in 218Bee...

I want to try soft point projectiles but have read all sorts of dire warnings about recoil setting off the rounds in the magazine.

My question - given that there's bugger all recoil with the 218Bee, does anyone have any knowledge of any of these rifles ACTUALLY setting off another cartridge in the magazine with a 'pointy' bullet?

I saw pic's of a Marlin in 30 - 30 that had the tube blown up by using pointed bullets .

Do you rely want to chance messing up your hand or worse ??

Johnch

Hornady makes a bullet just for that,.....it's a 45 grain bee they call it.

5th one down

I used to do this with a 94 in 30-30, back in my youth when I thought pointy bullets were the best style you could get. I solved the problem by just keeping 1 round in the magazine, 2 shots was plenty for walking in the woods. I'd say use whatever you want. You could experiment by putting a primed case in the magazine behind a pointy bullet, but then you'll have to experiment whether it should be at the front of the column or the back of the column. And also realize that if this ever does happen in real life, ALL of the bullets in the tube are going to go off!

But as I said, nothing wrong with keeping just 1 pointy round in the magazine.

Ruger, when the KBs can be documented, they have involved rifles of substantial recoil and/or bullets with jackets all the way to the tip. Inertia is also a factor, and .218 rounds are so light that they would have little tendency to compress the magazine spring under what recoil there is.

In the .218, a bullet with a substantial amount of exposed lead would be safe, but you'd batter the tips. I'd be perfectly willing to use a bullet with a polycarbonate tip although I might cut a bit of the tip off.

You can use any bullet if you load as a two shooter.

Recoil is one way that the tube of bullets might be set off but the other way is when a shell is chambered the shells left in the tube move/slam back depending upon how fast the action is worked.

Thanks guys,

Here's my thoughts, and the reason I asked the question...

yeah, there's no way I'd do it with a 30/30 or anything that has substantial recoil, but the bee has so little recoil, I can't for the life of me see how a lead soft point could indent a primer enough to fire it...

As to flattening the tips, that happens in my 270 (integral box mag) and has never created any issues with accuracy, so I'm not worried by that.

Spring pressure? Maybe, but again, it's not like the blow from the hammer, feeding the little 'Bee'stie doesn't take much effort, so the mag spring can't be all that strong... ??

Does anyone know of any actual discharges in a light calibre magazine?

I guess the next step is to try it and see what happens..

There have been reports and pictures over the years, one by Elmer Keith. Go ahead and do it you will still have a thumb (maybe) and five good fingers on your other hand. You can still shoot a pistol.
Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
...I guess the next step is to try it and see what happens..

Hey Rugeruser, Having read a few of your other posts, I'm a bit surprised at your thoughts.

I seem to remember you having a young boy that you were getting a rifle fixed up for, maybe a 22LR Rimfire.

Seems like that would be sending the wrong message to the boy - just because other rifles have exploded from doing this, it will be OK if I do it, because....
---

What do you believe you will "gain" by using a Spire Point over using the actual Flat Nose Bullet designed for the .218Bee?

is the sky falling again?....what kind of horse are we riding this time?

Rugeruser, The factory Bees ive used were HP
and I have about 60 Hornady HP/Bee projectiles I could send you if you want to try them.

Droping the rifle on it's end prob would be the worse case I'd reckon.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
Hi folk,

I have a WIn 92 in 218Bee...

I want to try soft point projectiles but have read all sorts of dire warnings about recoil setting off the rounds in the magazine.

My question - given that there's bugger all recoil with the 218Bee, does anyone have any knowledge of any of these rifles ACTUALLY setting off another cartridge in the magazine with a 'pointy' bullet?

There was a good article about this subject in the Gun Digest several years back, in which an attempt was made to get the points of bullets to set off cartyridges in the tubular magazines of a couple of rifles. I believe the test calibers were .35 Remington and/or .30/30.

The results were mixed, but basically, a bullet like the Remington Bronze Point, which has a hard metal point was considered a hazard for this effect. However, they were unable to get the soft lead point of a pointed softnose bullet to set off a primer UNTIL THAT SOFT POINT HAD BEEN HAMMERED DOWN TO WHERE THE EDGE OF THE BULLET JACKET WAS CONTACTING THE PRIMER. The lead of a bullet core was too soft to set off a primer no matter how hard a blow was struck with the lead point! The lead spread out but did not indent the primer!

IMO, it would not be possible for the sharp lead point of a pointed .22 spitzer bullet to set off a .218 Bee cartridge in a tubular magazine from the recoil force of a .218 Bee round alone (or even if more force was applied from some other source) as long as there was some lead remaining between the primer and the copper sides of the bullet jacket nose.

I once owned a Browning M65 in .218 Bee, but never got around to testing this idea. One could test it by loading up a bunch of the lead softpoint spitzer bullets into empty, primed cases, load the "dummy" rounds into the magazine, then fire the rifle a number of times by loading the chamber only, leaving the "dummies" in the magazine for say ten shots. (Use CCI SR primers.)

If one let go, all that could happen would be to pop the bullet out of the case mouth.

But I'll bet this would not happen..........

If I still had access to a lever-action .218 Bee, I'd do the test myself just out of curiousity.

When I ask Hornady last year about using their Round Nose bullets in the .450 Marlin… they said they were too pointy. Unless the manufacturer will recommend it I would not do it.

quote:

Originally posted by temmi:
When I ask Hornady last year about using their Round Nose bullets in the .450 Marlin… they said they were too pointy. Unless the manufacturer will recommend it I would not do it.

Do we suppose there is a difference in a 450 Marlin and a 218 Bee?

Thanks for that info El Deguello, it seems to back my premise...

I'll try your idea of using primed cases with seated bullets, and see what happens.

I know manufacturers don't recommend it, but they're run by bean counters and lawyers... not hunters...

I can see why it might not be advisable in a heavy recoil rifle, but a 'Bee'?

Whats wrong with the 2 shooter option? you couls allways bload flatt tips behind the 2?
A 92 in .218 bee is almost as hard to replace as your hand ! ...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
Thanks for that info El Deguello, it seems to back my premise...

I'll try your idea of using primed cases with seated bullets, and see what happens.

I know manufacturers don't recommend it, but they're run by bean counters and lawyers... not hunters...

I can see why it might not be advisable in a heavy recoil rifle, but a 'Bee'?

I agree. Let us know what you learn from the experiment, please!

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
Whats wrong with the 2 shooter option? you couls allways bload flatt tips behind the 2?
A 92 in .218 bee is almost as hard to replace as your hand ! ...tj3006

True! But there's nothing wrong with trying it with empty, primed cases. I'd be interested to see if anyone could pop a primer with a pointed punch made of pure soft lead..... I guess I'll try this myself with an empty, primed .45/70 case in a vise, if I can get the lead punch shaped right.......

I blame the public schools.

Thanks again guys,

I look at things this way - as far as risk is concerned, in trying the primed case idea, the risk of damage to me or the rifle would be negligible. I'm probably more at risk of death or injury from:

a) making an error while handloading,
b) being injured by some clown at the range who's done 'a)' above,
c) being accidentally shot in the field,
c) being injured or maimed while driving to or from the range...

Can't see how discharging a primer is going to do any damage...

Cheers

You takes your chances and you pays your dues ....

If spitzers and firepower are that important, get a bolt action. My 2c worth

To those who are mimicking the 'dire warnings' of the manufacturers... I hear you, but at the same time, I've been shooting/hunting/reloading for some 48 years... and I've had my share of 'incidents' as a result... I'm not unaware of potential issues (hence my post) and was hoping for some responses based on real world, practical experience(s). Not responses based on 'book' theory, or parroting the stuff regarding heavy calibres.... teh 218 ISN'T a heavy calibre...

Fortunately, some of you have provided some good insights and practical suggestions to 'test' my hypothesis... for that I thank you.

Why do I want to try it? Because I'm curious... and because I have a farm where feral dogs are a serious problem - it's coming up to lambing time here, two shots simply won't do the job... range can be from 10 feet to 200 yards. Yes, I could use any of my bolt guns, but when there are dogs around, they don't wait for a written invitation to be shot!!

Semi auto's are illegal, pumps don't come in small (ie quiet) calibres....

In adition, I don't reload as a hobby - to me, reloading serves a purpose - I get to make ammo that does the job I want it to do... nothing more, nothing less.

quote:

Originally posted by rugeruser:
...was hoping for some responses based on real world, practical experience(s). Not responses based on 'book' theory, or parroting the stuff regarding heavy calibres.... teh 218 ISN'T a heavy calibre...

Fortunately, some of you have provided some good insights and practical suggestions to 'test' my hypothesis...

Why do I want to try it? Because I'm curious... ...

The problem is a person can Test all they want and the only thing it will prove is that it did or did not create a problem the way it was done at that point in time.

Using different Primers from the same bunch, Seating them a bit differently so the "stress" on the Priming Compound is a bit higher, having the Bullet Tip make contact somewhat differently, dropping the rifle so the Recoil Pad gets a more severe jolt than what normal Testing will do, etc. - all will be different from whatever Testing a person dreams up.
---

It is a wise man who can learn from those who have gone before, and who can assess a situation and recognize the "potential" for a problem exists with a specific set of circumstances.

The thing that worries me most about this is
I find myself agreeing with Hot Core.
Good Luck!

FWIW IMO one would be for more likely to be injured in an auto accident while driving to a place to shoot than from the detonation of spitzer cartridges in a tubular magazine of a 218 Bee.

Even at that I'd still load the "Bee" flat points from Hornady than the spitzers as the tradjectory difference in the 218 Bee is pretty much nothing.

It's a 200 yard gun!

change the idea of a boomstick doesn't it?

to be nice, it's a bad idea, with a high risk profile
jeffe