I've been seeing a trend lately at my local shooting club.
That being where a lot of fellows with chronographs are just looking for the top velocity load in their rifle and not the least bit concerned with the fact that their rifle is printing some horrible sized group.
One fellow in particular was just appaled that his favorite long standing load in his 7mm Rem Mag, was only driving 160gr. bullets at 2850fps. He procceded to buy a host of other powders with the quest of hopping up the velocities in his rifle. The fact that he has had lots of success with the old load and while it's accuracy in his rifle was outstanding. He was not concerned that when he got anywhere over 2900fps with the same bullet his accuracy suffered big time.
This alarms me to a great degree since this fellow is a hunter and I can only imagine what may be the end result of a load that prints 5" groups at 100yds, when applied in a field situation.

A bad decision for sure on your friends part, but I see nothing wrong w/ using a chrono to "better" your laods. I can get 2850fps from my 23"bbl. .280 w/o the weight & recoil of a 7mag. Accuracy is certainly the goal but why not try to get another 100-150fps by switching powders? When I work up a load for a hunting round I look for the highest vel. w/ the best accuracy. I'm willing to give alittle both ways, but I don't think you have to compromise. If you are handloading you can find "perfect" loads w/ a bit of effort. I'll bet your budy was using IMR4350 under his pet 160gr bullet?

I would agree that accuracy is more important than all out speed. I normally look for top speed with a given bullet then adjust to the most accurate load as long as its within reason. I wouldn't be happy with 2850 out of a 7 mag. it should be good for 200 fps more and shoot good there. My hunting loads normally shoot inch or so in all calibers. No reason why you can't have accuracy and speed. I chrono all my hunting loads.

Agreed that his loads are a tad slow, but of course if the accuracy can be maintained go for the speed.
But he's working into the situation in reverse, he's trying for fast and giving no heed to accuracy.

After I accidently shot my chrono I found that I was relieved and never bothered to fix or replace it. I found shooting was more fun and I concentrated on accuracy as opposed to wondering what the machine thought about my load.

I have often found that there are nodes of accuracy, probably has something to do with barrel vibration. It seems that accuracy if often related to specific velocities. For example if you find an accurate load at 2900 fps for 200 gr bullets in 300 win mag with RL22, you can find similar accuracy at 2900 fps with other powders.

For example, in my Mato 300 win mag, 72 gr RL22 shoots pretty good and averages 2900 fps and 78.5 gr of H1000 gets the same velocity and shoots with about the same accuracy. I have pushed the 200 gr bullet to 2975 fps but accuracy was not as good approaching max.

A chronograph only ruins accuracy if you use it to max out velocity. It is necessary if might have to take a shot at 350 + yards so that you will know the ballistics of your load.

Speed before accuracy! I've never seen a load that wasn't accurate enough for biggame, but I have seen loads that were too underpowered! The most common mistake I see are people worried so much about accuracy!

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Speed before accuracy! I've never seen a load that wasn't accurate enough for biggame, but I have seen loads that were too underpowered! The most common mistake I see are people worried so much about accuracy!

Dude! Ya' keep talking like that and the ATF is gonna come knockin on your front door for dealin' crack! What are you smokin', anyway, bro?

friar

Accuracy is king! I have never seen any animal snicker at the shot because it was too slow to hurt. What is gained by pushing the limit? An inch or so in mid range trajectory?
Some guys like to gut, skin and grind the deer to save butchering I guess.
It must be a macho thing, bragging about how fast a gun shoots. Old 30-30 and a muzzle loader has been taking game forever, maybe the game has gotten tough---reactive armor. Deer die the same from an 850 fps .45 Colt as they do from a .460 Weatherby!

quote:

The most common mistake I see are people worried so much about accuracy!

Well, to a point I agree. If my favorite hunting rifle was giving me 1/2 inch groups at 2,800 feet/sec and I was able to up the speed to 3,000 safely and the groups opened to 1", I'd keep the new speed. It not important to shoot 1/2" groups at all.

If the groups opened to 3", I'd go back to the slower speed.

In short, I fully concurr that a level of accuracy is necessary but to be better is a exercise in futility.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Accuracy is king!QUOTE]
Well, yes & no. I would not call a 160gr bullet @ 2850fps from a 7mag a "good load" even if it was printing one jole groups, IF I could get 1/2" groups moving 3100fps. Like I said, it just takes patience & trial & error to find really "good" loads.

A well designed 160 grain bullet , be it .270 or .324 diameter, or anything in between will, and has, killed cleanly every type of game in the lower 48. Sensible long range included.

Just because the name includes the word Magnum doesn't mean we really gain anything by squeezing the last fps. out of it.

Just so happens that the energy you are getting out of that load is in the 30-06 energy range and the tajectory is slighty better than the 06.

Maybe rethinking accuracy vs. velocity and what you really need to get the job done would be helpfull at this point in your friend's firearms maturation. No foul intended. roger

I've always been more interested in accuracy than velocity, but I then found (after I bought a chronograph) that my most consistently accurate loads are at the higher end of the velocity spectrum for the powder I'm using anyway.

Having said that, we don't have nearly the variety of powders to choose from that our US / European counterparts do, so we tend to use the one or two powders that are 'in the ballpark', and work with them. I suppose it saves us a lot of cash experimenting with different powders

quote:

Originally posted by Rikkie:
I've always been more interested in accuracy than velocity, but I then found (after I bought a chronograph) that my most consistently accurate loads are at the higher end of the velocity spectrum for the powder I'm using anyway.

Having said that, we don't have nearly the variety of powders to choose from that our US / European counterparts do, so we tend to use the one or two powders that are 'in the ballpark', and work with them. I suppose it saves us a lot of cash experimenting with different powders

oh yes. but look at all the fun your missing.

seems like every week we get a new bullet or powder. and each new one is supposed to be better than it's predecessor.

I don't use a chronograph to work up loads. I work up an accurate load and then, if I happen to get my chronography set up, I see how fast the bullets are going. Most of the time the bullets are going about like my loading manual says they will and at times 100 to 200 fps faster or slower.

Another pitfall to trying to get a particular velocity besides worse accuracy is that the pressure may be excessive in some guns. I believe it's just as likely that the decreased accuracy as powder charges are increased is from erratic powder burning as from being outside of a particular velocity "node."

A group of 5 inches at 100 yards should be good enough to take a big game animal but I want my rifles to be rabbit guns at 200 yards. I really work for groups in the 1 -1½ MOA range or better. If you confine yourself to 50 - 100 yard shots, 5 MOA may be OK on a deer; if you're going to take the shot at 300 - 400 yards your gun really should do better.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...It is necessary if might have to take a shot at 350 + yards so that you will know the ballistics of your load.

Hey Woods, Don't take this as picking on you, cause it isn't intended that way.

The only way to know the Point-of-Impact of a specific Load at 350+ yards is to actually shoot that Load onto paper at that distance in your specific rifle.

Granted some of the Ballistic Tables and Ballistic Software can get you onto a Refrigerator box. But the same Variables that require everyone to Develop their own Accuracy Loads, plus the inconsistancy in Published B.C.s vs. Actual B.C.s are enough to alter the Trajectory to a significant degree.

If a person has not actually shot their specific "Hunting Load" at a specific l-o-n-g distance on paper, then they really should not be shooting at Game with it.

On the other hand, if a person is only shooting Benchrest, it really doesn't matter - unless he wants to actually hit the Target.
---

Hey SouthpawDV, Your original Topic (Many a good load ruined by a chronograph) is absolutely true.
---

For all the Rookies out there, Grumulkin is using his chronograph in the best way possible:

quote:

I work up an accurate load and then, if I happen to get my chronography set up, I see how fast the bullets are going.

This prevents the chronograph from "misleading" you.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

The only way to know the Point-of-Impact of a n the other hand, if a person is only shooting Benchrest, it really doesn't matter - unless he wants to actually hit the Target.
---

Hey SouthpawDV, Your original Topic (Many a good load ruined by a chronograspecific Load at 350+ yards is to actually shoot that Load onto paper at that distance in your specific rifle.

.......

If a person has not actually shot their specific "Hunting Load" at a specific l-o-n-g distance on paper, then they really should not be shooting at Game with it.

well, I'll be...... I actually whole-heartedly agree with Hot-Core. The end must be near....... LOL! Dutch.

quote:

One fellow in particular was just appaled (sic) that his favorite long standing load in his 7mm Rem Mag, was only driving 160gr. bullets at 2850fps.

I'd bet he wouldn't be as alarmed at the speed if the caliber marking on his barrel was just "7mm Remington." But this poor guy has been indoctrinated since 1962 with, what I like to call, 'magnum-itis." 7mm Rem mags are supposed to be FAST. Everyone knows it. After all, that's why Remington stuck on that 'magnum' moniker. The only thing faster than a speeding bullet was...Superman!!!

Until he actually sent a few 160gr bullets across the skyscreens and they only clocked 2850fps. That's not what he was promised. I'll bet he was hoping for 3100fps.

Welcome to the real world, fella! Short barrels, burned out throats and inflated factory ballistics for this caliber yield less than expected results faster than your sucked-in beer gut flops over your belt after the pretty girl walks by.

I'd suggest he rebarrel to 7mm STW. Maybe burning more powder will make him happy.

I shoot across my chronograph a lot in the early morning at a public range. I offer to let other people shoot across it all the time.

You should see the differences between people's claimed velocity and the actual. I've actually had to set up two chrono's in line because people are almost hysterical claiming that my chronograph is wrong.

Powder choice in the 7rm and 270win for that matter seem to have more of a extreme effect on velocity than any other carts I've loaded for.

I've seen 270s only move bullets in the 140 range to speeds of 2800 or so w/ max charges of powders around the 4831 class but, the same rifles would safely go over 3100 w/ a different powders such as R22. Same holds true for the 7RMs, Most all factory ammo I've run across screens has been ridiculously low on velocity as well as when handloading 160s w/ powders recommended in several manuals but, in the same rifles when switching to R22 or 7828 and some others 3100 was quite easy to safely achieve w/ 160s. For those reasons I've found there is often a big variance and misconception in what the 7RM and 270Win are actually capable of safely achieving.

Reloader

Onefunzr2, very well said! Bullet selection for the game hunted and the ability to place the shot at any range is way more important then the speed of the bullet.
I have had many rifles that DID require a load just over max book figures to get 1/2" groups but I have had a lot more that needed LESS powder. If I had to contend with 5" groups from ANY gun, it would be sold. My revolvers shoot close to an inch at 100 yd's, be damned if I could accept worse then that from a rifle because it SHOOTS FAST.
I would take that nice 7 mag load and shoot it at every range to 500 yd's and learn how to aim and shoot it for each 50 yd change from here to there. I would then have the confidence to hunt with it. Oh, I'm sorry, maybe it just won't shoot that far unless it is going 3200 fps! Too darn many book learned hunters anymore.

I have another question! Magnums were designed to shoot either very large game with heavy bullets going a little faster then a standard caliber or a lighter bullet for much longer ranges. How many of you are using them for deer at 100 yd's or less and WHY? Is it the extreme meat damage that turns you on or the fact you want the deer to drop in place?
More deer are lost around here each season from magnum-itis then any other reason. I help find deer every year shot with the cannons and there are a lot not found until I hunt mushrooms in the spring. I found 10 this spring. Last one we recovered from a 7 mag had a hole in it big enough to stick your head in, no meat left and blood shot to high heaven, but he got the rack. It quit bleeding in 100 yd's and went a mile. All shots here are under 100 and closer to 50 yd's but NOBODY uses a 30-30 and I am the only revolver hunter around here. I get all of the deer I hit and eat right to the hole.

I hate to hunt in an area that some other Idiots are hunting that have the philosophy, that MV and a Big bullet are the only thing needed to bring down game....

Aww to hell with shot placement when you shoot a 4000 fps Bazooka....

well where is the bullet going when YOU miss Einstein????

People who think that velocity over accuracy is king, have too much spare testosterone they have no outlet for... or a major inferiority complex they are hiding and trying dilligently to overcome... which is probably the average 30/378 Weatherby customer...

Seafire,

The funniest thing to me is when someone comes up to me at the range and says "Can I shoot my load over your chrony?, It's supposed to be going 3500fps etc etc" Then they shoot across the screens to find out it only read about 3100. Sure dulls em' out in a hurry.

I look for accuracy first and spread second. I prefer to have great accuracy w/ a very low spread but, If she'll do a 1/2" or better, I can handle upto a 50fps or so spread comfortably. Great accuracy w/ huge spreads don't sit too well w/ me, starts to show when you get out there a piece.

I don't think it's reasonable to be happy w/ slow loads just because they are accurate. If you have a 7RM and your only getting 7mm08 velocity, you need to hunt a different powder. A powder that gives great accuracy, Low spread, and normal velocity for said cart should be the goal IMO.

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Powder choice in the 7rm and 270win for that matter seem to have more of a extreme effect on velocity than any other carts I've loaded for.

Throw the .280 into that as well.

"I don't think it's reasonable to be happy w/ slow loads just because they are accurate. If you have a 7RM and your only getting 7mm08 velocity, you need to hunt a different powder. A powder that gives great accuracy, Low spread, and normal velocity for said cart should be the goal IMO".

My point exactly. You may be happy w/ the accuracy but why carry & hunt w/ a 9# 7mag when you could hunt w/ a 7# .280. I know it's all just a numbers game but I guess for some, ignorance is bliss, for other a search for perfection.

What I have been saying all along! If it shoots fast AND is accurate, fine. If it shoots fast and you can't hit sh#* with it but a slower load shoots good, why in the world would you keep loading for faster bullets? Get over the phobia of speed and shoot what hits where aimed. Throw the Chrony in a drawer. Amazing how many guys have killed a zillion animals with a load and then find it is not as fast as they thought and all of a sudden it is not good enough to hunt with. Well, duuuuh, didn't it work before? Did your brain turn to mush because the bullet is 200 fps slower then you thought? Damned animals have radar guns to check up on you dudes, not fast enough and they laugh at you.
Reminds me of my varmint hunting days with a 220 Swift. I used a 60 gr Hornady. No, it could not EVER reach over 4000 fps but I head shot a few thousand chucks out WAY past 600 yd's with the load. Some of you would not be happy with my velocity but it shot 5 shots into 1/4" at 350 yd's and I never missed with it unless I shot at something too close. I used another gun (.222) for shots from 100 to 300 yd's. Up to 100 yd's, I used a .44 mag revolver. Kind of stupid to shoot close with a 220 swift! Kind of stupid to use a 7mm or 300 mag under 200 yd's for anything unless it is big, tough, dangerous and you have a heavy tough bullet.
The 270 and 280 are the best rifles for all around use from close to out of sight ranges for most hunters.
I killed several deer with my 6.5 Swedish and it was very, very impressive for being as slow as it is. But it was way too easy so I keep it in the safe now. It is just not needed, I could never imagine needing some magnum rifle.

A friend of mine hunts with a 8mm Mauser and factory ammo. The rifle is quite accurate. He brags that it is the best deer rifle he ever used. I never told him that he is really shooting a 32 Special.
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
A friend of mine hunts with a 8mm Mauser and factory ammo. The rifle is quite accurate. He brags that it is the best deer rifle he ever used. I never told him that he is really shooting a 32 Special.
Good Luck!

I like the 8x57, it's a good killer, much better than a .308 win.

An example for some of you. Years ago I had to lap a friends mould for a Minie ball for his .58. I finally got the boolit to fit the bore good but could not remove it. I pushed it all the way down and removed the nipple to trickle in a small amount of powder so I could blow out the boolit. Could not have added more then a gr or so. I held the rifle in line with the 2x4 bench leg and pulled the trigger. I felt the boolit go under my hand and it pooped out of the muzzle. The darned thing penetrated it's full depth into the 2x4. No, not a good hunting load but at short range, that boolit would have killed a person. Most guys under estimate the effect of a bullet and just HAVE to go the limits. Extreme power is just not needed except for long range or very dangerous game.

I agree. It's sad to hear that some people are so concerned with velocity. Does the shot "placement" not mean as much now?

Yes, his load might have been a little on the slow side, but then again, so are mine. In my .338 WM, I'm loading 225gr SST's in front of 70.2gr of RL-22, yielding 2613fps, and .5 MOA @ 100 yds. (that's about 3-4 hundred fps slower than most people shoot .338 WM at)

But personally, I'd rather have the bullet go where I want it to, than have a few hundred fps more. And yes, while my trajectories will suffer a bit more, I'm still shooting a better group, so that actually increases my long range effectiveness.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that each bullet/ barrel combination will have about 2 excellent accuracy velocities. I found the low end velocity in my .338, and I might be able to find the upper end velocity, I might not.

mike

Many years ago, I had lunch with Jim Carmichael, and he said, "Never chonograph your favorite load".

How true it is, I've now found than many a great load is not a great as I thought it was.

Now I worry less and less about velocity.

Gentlemen ----- If you shoot enough, you can know exactly what your load will do, even if you do not know the speed. All you have to do is shoot it at all the distances you might be called upon to shoot game at. That takes a lot of shooting and most hunters will not take that much time and do that much shooting. That said, if you shoot over the chronograph, tweak your loads for accuracy and do both enough to achieve maximum accuracy you have the best of both worlds. Knowing ballistics and your speeds should prepare you more for varied distances. The magic word is shoot ENOUGH with and without the chronograph. The more shooting you do either way, the more second nature it becomes putting that crosshair on the target, pulling the trigger, hitting the target where you want too. Bottom line, shoot more with more knowledge of your load (ie. with chronograph), and you will become an instinctive shooter for any game aimed at. You will really be supprised how much more accurate you will become after a few hundred rounds fired, and particularly if you know your load speeds and understand the ballistics. Just my .02 worth. Good shooting.

SouthpawDV ----- The chronograph did not ruin the load, it ruined the man. When you get your first chronograph, you need to leave your ego and testerone (sp) away from the range. Pretty soon after mastering it's use, you will be very amused with others reactions and responses. Good shooting.

I crony my loads after I get the accuracy I want.

And just to make sure it's close to what the book says.
Then I run it thru a "ballistic program" to see what the drop is "supposed" to be.

Then it's shoot at that range to see if it's really true.

My 7 RM shots at about 3000 using the max load of H1000 and 150 grain bullets. And it generally shoots less than an inch at 100 yards.

But it's definately "minute of deer"

I've got a 30-06 that can shoot in the .3's with 4895 and a 165gr Hornady, the velocity is only about 2500fps. I don't use that load for hunting, I much prefer my load of H-414 and a 180gr at 2700fps, it only does 1 moa, but is a much better hunting load.

Why drive a Corvette,then expect Tercel milage?

Two 30.06 loads,one 165gr one 180gr,one "deer" one "moose".Same accuracy.Both went 2740,moose load for everything.

With the M-70 30.06,the practice load of a 165gr Hornady BTSP at 2620 has the best or very good accuracy.This is with various powders and lot #s.That one I chronyed afterwards.

When I recently bought my first chrony, I was suprised at the results. My deer load was a bit faster and a lot more consistant that I figured, and my varmit loads were a bit slower.

I used the data to help place shots at 300 yards a bit better, but none of the deer or p.dogs that i shot before every had the chance to complain that the bullet was to slow.

I love using a chrony to work up loads.

I can try a few powders and weed out the slow dogs. Why burn 10% more powder for 10% less velocity? Less powder is less recoil too.

Plus I have found some powders work poor for one bullet weight and well for another in the same calibers.

I use powder for speed and seating depth for accuracy. But none of my rifles are picky about accuracy anyway.

I see many of you agree with me. If your gun shoots an inch at 100 with very hot loads you are good to go. No problem there at all. I am only against going for speed if it ruins the accuracy of your rifle, handgun or whatever.
If a gun holds 1/2" to 1" at 100 but a hotter load goes 3" or worse, guess what has to go?
I just had two friends over today, a nice gentleman and his son. They had never shot a revolver before. Yes, I took them down with my BFR .475 Linebaugh. Guess what? After a little instruction both were shooting great right from the very first shots. The son hit my 100 yd ram first shot and both were clanging 50 yd steel with no problems. I do not load to max but the gun is extremely accurate. What was more important? Should I have added a few more gr's of powder so they could spray the range? The super accuracy allowed them to become very comfortable and to shoot way beyond my expectations of a new handgun shooter. They were both extremely impressed and very happy.
By the way, the boolit and power is enough to take any animal on earth. No, I will NOT add more powder!

I did use my chrony to work my 454 casull loads to 1350 with a 340 grain bullet. That was the speed I was wanting even though it can go 200 fps faster. The load shoots accurate and the recoil is very managable to shoot.