Hi folks. I've been spending my time over on Cast Boolits. A question now arises on the issue of case fillers - those that actually take up the excess case volume.

Let me explain - I have a short barreled 303 Brit with a rough bore for which I am using heavy paper patched bullets. I need a gentle push on the boolit and substancial velocity. To this end I have ben trying a slow powder (AR2209/4350) under a 205gr bullet. BUT, to get the performance I am seeking, I'm loading 30grs powder which is only 43% load density and filling the remainder of the case with 'Grits'. This works. Pressure is mild and velocity is not too shabby.

The question is; will it always work or will it one day, when all the plannets and the moon are in the correct alignment, blow up on me?

Comments? Anecdotal evidence? Ideas?

In my large Nitro Express cases I use Dacron Polifil (pillow filling) or I use a Kynoch type soft foam plug. I cut the plugs with a bridge punch and hammer. Pillow filling you can get at any fabric store.

One alternative might be 5744 powder. I use it for reduced loads in my 375 and 404 Jeffery. Very gentle. Never use filler with 5744 (manufacturer recommendation).

If you go to Accurate Powders site and send them a request for a load for your rifle. They are very helpful!

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Originally posted by Rusty:
In my large Nitro Express cases I use Dacron Polifil (pillow filling) or I use a Kynoch type soft foam plug. I cut the plugs with a bridge punch and hammer. Pillow filling you can get at any fabric store.

One alternative might be 5744 powder. I use it for reduced loads in my 375 and 404 Jeffery. Very gentle. Never use filler with 5744 (manufacturer recommendation).

If you go to Accurate Powders site and send them a request for a load for your rifle. They are very helpful!

The problem withing the that filler is you need to weigh each ball of pillow filler. I tossed my targets yesterday I tried it on. It made my groups 6"+ due to difference in chamber pressures.
I am unsure if you need to weighing the grits/cream of wheat. But I would do is fill the case like normal and find out with that, you now could figure out how much you would need and stay consistent.
Let me know how it works out for you.

Back in the `50's the NRA used to publish a good bit of information about using Paper Patched and Cast Bullets. "Fillers" were a lively discussion topic at that time. Some used them and were very happy, opposed to those who used them and ended up with "Ringed" Chambers.

A "Ringed" Chamber is as close as you can come to a Ka-Boom and yet end up with perhaps only needing a new barrel. Then again, the Action and Bolt Lugs had to experience a HUGE Pressure spike to produce the Ring. So, that is one of the reasons I do not buy "unknown used rifles". You just never know what they have been subjected to.

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Originally posted by Rusty:
One alternative might be 5744 powder. ... Very gentle. Never use filler with 5744 (manufacturer recommendation). ...

This is an excellent suggestion.

And either of the IMR "SR" Powders are designed to be Bulky for taking a lot of Case Volume and allow operation at lower Pressures. Both of which would be better than a small amount of "4350".

i use a product called "puflon" have had great sucess with it.

How about Trail Boss? It's very bulky so you won't need a filler.

I agree with Leo. I would change powders. Maybe Trail Boss or AA5744. AA5744 is not sensitive to position in the case and a filler is not needed. I have used it in all kinds of cartridges including reduced loads in my .450 Dakota and .500 Jeffery. Drop an e-mail to Johan Loubser at Accurate Powder. I am sure that he can help you come up with a load that will work for you. The only downside to AA5744 is that it leaves a lot of unburned powder in the bore so regular cleaning is a must.

Butch Searcy recommended that I use 3/8" thick styrofoam in my 470. It can be bought at Hobby Lobby, Michael's, and other places in sheets measuring ~12" x 36". After the powder charge is dropped, simply press the styrofoam over the case mouth and it cuts a perfect plug. Then seat the bullet.

I used this for ~300 rounds and never had a problem. Some, though, don't like the idea of sending that foam down the barrel. $0.02

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Originally posted by Leo L.:
How about Trail Boss? It's very bulky so you won't need a filler.

there was a article in the mag. Handloader here a few months or so ago about trailboss. Guy said he called Hodgton Powder co. and said how you figure out how much powder is easy. fill it up, Max, poor some out to 75% min. Done.
I can look it up again if you wish, or hell I may call them my self.
James

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Originally posted by 303Guy:
Hi folks. I've been spending my time over on Cast Boolits. A question now arises on the issue of case fillers - those that actually take up the excess case volume.

Let me explain - I have a short barreled 303 Brit with a rough bore for which I am using heavy paper patched bullets. I need a gentle push on the boolit and substancial velocity. To this end I have ben trying a slow powder (AR2209/4350) under a 205gr bullet. BUT, to get the performance I am seeking, I'm loading 30grs powder which is only 43% load density and filling the remainder of the case with 'Grits'. This works. Pressure is mild and velocity is not too shabby.

The question is; will it always work or will it one day, when all the plannets and the moon are in the correct alignment, blow up on me?

Comments? Anecdotal evidence? Ideas?

Just see if you can find a slower bulkier powder.

Thanks for all replies, folks.

OK - Trailboss would be a sub-sonic load. I'm not sure it's available in my parts but I have considered that one.

Lightweight fibre fillers are good for holding the powder in place but I wouldn't dare use it with such a reduced load of a slow powder like 4350. I would use it with faster powder like 4227 and Bullseye - both of which I have done. Trouble is, these powders produce a spiky pressure curve with heavy for caliber bullets and that causes problems with bullet base distortion in the throat area. Worse still, the faster the powder, the lower the attainable velocity.

Styrofoam is something I looked at a while ago but deemed it not useable in a bottleneck case. It's also low density.

Bulky slow powders - those sound like the ticket. My question would be are they suitable for a short barrel? Too much muzzle blast from a slow burn powder will defeat the suppressor. Even the 30gr 4350 under a 205gr bullet is pretty loud.

What I have achieved successfully is getting the 4350 to actually burn at those low levels and develope a moderate pressure which does not damage the bullet base. Two problems though; one is it's a pain to have to meter the grits and two, I just don't know how safe it is or isn't! I just don't know how safe it is or isn't! It's not like the case is half empty - it isn't. The grits forms a wad and plug which has to resist being pushed out the case so it will raise the pressure which is what we want. It also makes the case behave like a smaller case.

On the plus side, the grits scrubs the bore. One down side it it cups the bullet base and leaves a wad of itselve imbedded there. I'm not sure that would be consistant.

Chamber ringing is something I've grappled with. I've never found a definitive explanation for it but it has been suggested that it's caused by a wad over powder with an air space between it and the bullet?

Here one can see the sort of pressure range I'm working in.


At those pressures, powder combustion is complete in the short barrel.

303, I've know 2 reloader who's blown their pistols up with loads that included fillers. I'm not able to say the filler was the direct cause,but it's enough to make me prefer different methods. I also prefer going with a slower powder. In the past I've used some very slow powders with good effect. An example would be using wc860 (ball power with a burn rate close to 5010) in a 6.5 sweed. Great consistant groups at cast bullet speeds.

Overall, it sounds like you have alot going on with this rig. Rough bore, short barrel, cast bullets, and a supressor? Can't exactly say I have alot of experience with your specific situation, but it sure sounds fun.

Here is the "Pig Gun". It m ight not look like much it's real nice to carry around. It's intended for seriously wet conditions and fits under my poncho.

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... but it sure sounds fun.

Oh yes, it's fun allright!

It's not finished yet as you can see - work gets in the way!

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I've know 2 reloader who's blown their pistols up with loads that included fillers.

That's my point.

I've made the observation that if a rifle blows and the shooter is using a fast pistol powder, the cause is fast pistol powder. If a rifle blows and the shooter is using reduced loads of slow powders, the cause is reduced loads of slow powders, if fillers were involved then it's caused by fillers .... !? I narrowly avoided a SEE simply because I checked the powder measure against the scale. It was the first throw after filling the measure which had been kept empty - and found a discrepency! At some point I had been using Bullseye from my smaller pistol measure and had distrusted a throw and so tipped it back into the measure - but I got the wrong measure! Had I not checked the weight, I would have had a reduced load of half Bullseye and 4350. I would then have said I had had a SEE when my gy gun blew. But I would have been wrong!

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Originally posted by 303Guy:


Here one can see the sort of pressure range I'm working in.


At those pressures, powder combustion is complete in the short barrel.

What pressures? What pressure range? A pic of spent primers and shredded lead don't tell me squat. Do you have some sort of chart at hand where you compare your spent components to that of known pressure standards...sort of like a chip chart of house paint colors?

I've been informed that good old CHE & PREare the time tested way to measure metallic cartridge pressures. Only measuring the fired case with good old CHE & PREwill yield accurate psi numbers. Have you used this time-tested, mother-approved method? If not, you don't know what you're dealing with.

303guy, Thanks for sharing the Pic, I like what you are doing with it.

In each of the cases I'm aware of, the guys were also distracted at some point it the reloading process. I don't know if this lead to a mutliple charged round, or omission of the filler and a flash over, but in any event: Complicated technique + distraction = trouble.

I think you are on the right track with H4350, a clean burning, single base stick power. But I was thinking maybe something slower, H4831, or even H1000. This could help fill up the case, and keep your velocity down in the cast bullet range. If you know someone who could run it for you in quick load, it might give you some valuable insite.

As for mixing powders, I try to stay away from that particlar grizzly bear.

onefunzr2, I do indeed have a comparison system. I determine chamber pressure in terms of low, mild, moderate, medium, high and excessive. Full pressure is what a normal jacketed bullet load using a powder charge that produces maximum velocity at a 'medium' pressure. 'High' is above my Lee Enfield safe range but won't actually damage the gun (mild to moderate load for a 308).

This is an example for a Federal primer in my 303 Brit.


The center primer is the pressure I am looking for with paper patched bullets because at that level the patch does not fail in the bore and with 4350, the powder burns cleanly. The L/H primer is my normal 180gr jacket bullet hunting load using 4350. The R/H primer is almost at zero powder levels and is useful only with fast powders like bullseye. A 4350 load that produces that primer appearance is waaaay too low for safety and will produce unburned and smoldering powder kernals. On the other hand, if the L/H primer were to be produced by bullseye, there would be an over-pressure condition and can cause stiff bolt lift in a Lee Enfield and CHE & PRE would show an excess pressure condition. (I didn't measure the actual before and after case dimentions - it was too late anyway - but the case expansion was quite visible and the case head will not fit my tight shell holder.

Antelope Sniper, mixing powders would be a no, as you say. There is a science to it and I don't know that science! Using a slower powder would be an acceptable approach with a longer barrel and my heavy bullets. I have no idea how they would perform in a very short barrel. I'm betting the muzzle blast would be quite something but I could upgrade the suppressor to handle it. It might even be the way to solve my two-groove No4 issue with paper patching. Mmmmm....!

I hear what you are saying about the muzzle blast. I've seen some nice fireball from ball powders and short barrels . In my experience, they are less of an issue with the single base stick, hence my thinking toward H4831/H1000. I hope you find a good solution. I'm looking forward to some good Pig stories.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
onefunzr2, I do indeed have a comparison system. I determine chamber pressure in terms of low, mild, moderate, medium, high and excessive. Full pressure is what a normal jacketed bullet load using a powder charge that produces maximum velocity at a 'medium' pressure. 'High' is above my Lee Enfield safe range but won't actually damage the gun (mild to moderate load for a 308).

This is an example for a Federal primer in my 303 Brit.


The center primer is the pressure I am looking for with paper patched bullets because at that level the patch does not fail in the bore and with 4350, the powder burns cleanly. The L/H primer is my normal 180gr jacket bullet hunting load using 4350. The R/H primer is almost at zero powder levels and is useful only with fast powders like bullseye. A 4350 load that produces that primer appearance is waaaay too low for safety and will produce unburned and smoldering powder kernals. On the other hand, if the L/H primer were to be produced by bullseye, there would be an over-pressure condition and can cause stiff bolt lift in a Lee Enfield and CHE & PRE would show an excess pressure condition. (I didn't measure the actual before and after case dimentions - it was too late anyway - but the case expansion was quite visible and the case head will not fit my tight shell holder.

Antelope Sniper, mixing powders would be a no, as you say. There is a science to it and I don't know that science! Using a slower powder would be an acceptable approach with a longer barrel and my heavy bullets. I have no idea how they would perform in a very short barrel. I'm betting the muzzle blast would be quite something but I could upgrade the suppressor to handle it. It might even be the way to solve my two-groove No4 issue with paper patching. Mmmmm....!

Hey 303! I have a friend of mine who uses a Rem. 700 and the way his rifle is, no matter what pressure is the primers come out flat. If my primers came out like that in my 1903A3 Springfield, or 96Mauser I would be backing off that load quickly!

Just goes to tell you how each gun is different!
So just be careful!

You should give a try to the H335-Varget range for burn rate. Should help cut back a little on muzzle blast. Or just add porting in your suppressor so you dont blow it out.

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Or just add porting in your suppressor so you dont blow it out.

Varget would reduce the muzzle blast so the suppressor would not be an issue. In fact, Vasrget is a pretty good choice of powder. My problem is I have a use for 4350 and Varget looks exactly the same - too much likelyhood of a fatal mix-up! Now H4831SC would look different.

Primer flattening in itself does not mean much. Well, it does but it means there is a little too much headspace i.e. the case shoulder is being set back too far during resizing. The firing pin indent is what one should be looking at - in conjunction with edge squaring. Anyway, a primer is actually rather difficult to read pressure from. Firing a bullet into sand doesn't tell up velocity either but it does give an idea of which load is faster or slower. it also tells me whether or not a particular casting alloy will hold together or not. Rough indications only!