Say you have two bottles of powder, one is new and you have 1/2Lb. powder left in the other (both the same type of course). You know you are going to require more than a half a pound, so in an effort to maintain consistency would mixing what's left of the half pound powder with the new one make sense? Safety? etc..

There has been a lot of discussion on this. Most agree mixing the same type of powder with diferent lot numbers is safe. If you are working up a new load I'd mix it first.

I have two containers or 2400.
The powder grains are uniquely different.

Some ball powders may be the same size, but is the density the same.

Shoot up the 1/2 pound and then work up new loads with the new container

I see no reason to mix different lots of powder. If lot A is any different than lot B then how could lot AB be the same as either?
And would A and B be mixed 1 to 1 or would 1/2 lb A be mixed with 1 lb B forming lot ABB? That is just crazy, use all of lot A and if lot B is and different then a small adjustment in the charge could be made if needed.

Wynn, it's kind of like when painters mix their different cans of paint together to maintain a uniform color. Once you do it, it becomes it's own mixture. I guess that why I like 5 gallon cans of paint and 8 pound kegs of powder.

But as far as powder is concerned, I wouldn't really worry about it unless I was using a powder know for significant variations between lots, there was a long time between when they were made, or there were other reasons to feel there would be a large variatiton between the two lots.

some good reasoning so far.....

I'd be more tempted if one had four new 1-lb containers of (example) RL-22 and he poured them all into a milk jug and mixed them thoroughly and then replaced them in the original containers and labeled them (something like this) BLENDED RL-22 July 27,2010.....this makes sense to me.....

I'm not sure the example given is a good idea but agree that it's probably quite safe

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:
Say you have two bottles of powder, one is new and you have 1/2Lb. powder left in the other (both the same type of course). You know you are going to require more than a half a pound, so in an effort to maintain consistency would mixing what's left of the half pound powder with the new one make sense? Safety? etc..

I'd just mix 'em and rock on with it. But that's just me. It would be fun to develop a load with it...

I do it with my 8 lb jugs when they run down to 2 lbs or so. Buy 1 or two more as budget allows and dump 'em in there and shake a bit.

Can't hurt and might help some.

quote:

Originally posted by WYNN:
I see no reason to mix different lots of powder. If lot A is any different than lot B then how could lot AB be the same as either?

That's the whole point. By introducing your current lot into your new one, you are effectively giving your new powder characteristics of your current powder. Therefore creating some type of consistency. I understand this to be a theory but make sense to me. But then, what do I know? I guess that's why I asked for other opinions and expertise..

In general, never mix. Some powders when marked the same are not. The Accurate powders #5 if i remember correctly, had 2 or 3 different companys making it for them over the years. Some of the powder does not ever look the same, but still marked #5. See photo in post #7 at link here > http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=514660

This is what I do as well.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
some good reasoning so far.....

I'd be more tempted if one had four new 1-lb containers of (example) RL-22 and he poured them all into a milk jug and mixed them thoroughly and then replaced them in the original containers and labeled them (something like this) BLENDED RL-22 July 27,2010.....this makes sense to me.....

I'm not sure the example given is a good idea but agree that it's probably quite safe

Been mixing for 40 years.

I'm a mixer myself but I eyeball the two powders and assure myself that they look alike. If I had two can of supposedly same powder that looked different, all sorts of alert flags would go up. And I would resolve those alerts before I did any mixing.
At least, I wouldn't mix and when I got to the can that looked different, I'd back off and work up again.

bad idea

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

I'm a mixer myself but I eyeball the two powders and assure myself that they look alike.

Appearance is no way to determine if Powder A is the same as Powder B. I only mix powders that I have already loaded into the same round, such as AA2230 and BL-C(2) in the .223Remington. I load only two or three powders into this round, so I know what charge weights I can load to avoid getting pressures that would be too high. I would never mix large amounts of a .30-caliber magnum powder with a lesser amount of powder for a small-bore caliber and then shoot that milkshake in a small-bore gun. I think a small amount of slow powder in a small-bore gun is OK as long as it is mixed with large amounts of small-bore powder. But that's just me...

Powder companys make powder by batches . These units are then blended as each is not exactly the same. The blend or lot is then tested/adjusted as to burning rate and other factors, so all lots sold to the public is exactly the same. IMR powders will be the same, year after year after year.

It's what I do to aleviate lot variations to a certain extent. Seems to have worked well for the last 30yrs or so. I would never mix powders of diff brand/manuf though, or short cut w/ std cut.

Forensic Science Communications April 2002 — Volume 4 — Number 2


red bar graphic Research and Technology


The Manufacture of Smokeless Powders and their Forensic Analysis: A Brief Review

Robert M. Heramb
Graduate Student
Bruce R. McCord
Associate Professor of Analytical and Forensic Chemistry
Department of Chemistry
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio

Introduction.......Composition and Manufacturing.......Distribution.......Improvised Explosive Devices.......Analysis.......Conclusions.......References

Introduction

Smokeless powders are a class of propellants that were developed in the late 19th century to replace black powder. The term smokeless refers to the minimal residue left in the gun barrel following the use of smokeless powder. In forensic analysis, smokeless powders are often encountered as organic gunshot residue or as the explosive charge in improvised explosive devices.

All smokeless powders can be placed into one of three different classes according to the chemical composition of their primary energetic ingredients. A single-base powder contains nitrocellulose, whereas a double-base powder contains nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine. The energetic ingredients in triple-base powders are nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine, and nitroguanidine, but because triple-base powders are primarily used in large caliber munitions, they are difficult to obtain on the open market.

Composition and Manufacturing

The major classes of compounds in smokeless propellants include energetics, stabilizers, plasticizers, flash suppressants, deterrents, opacifiers, and dyes (Bender 1998; Radford Army Ammunition Plant 1987).

* Energetics facilitate the explosion. The base charge is nitrocellulose, a polymer that gives body to the powder and allows extrudability. The addition of nitroglycerine softens the propellant, raises the energy content, and reduces hygroscopicity. Adding nitroguanidine reduces flame temperature, embrittles the mixture at high concentration, and improves energy-flame temperature relationship.

* Stabilizers prevent the nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine from decomposing by neutralizing nitric and nitrous acids that are produced during decomposition. If the acids are not neutralized, they can catalyze further decomposition. Some of the more common stabilizers used to extend the safe life of the energetics are diphenylamine, methyl centralite, and ethyl centralite.

* Plasticizers reduce the need for volatile solvents necessary to colloid nitrocellulose, soften the propellant, and reduce hygroscopicity. Examples of plasticizers include nitroglycerine, dibutyl phthalate, dinitrotoluene, ethyl centralite, and triacetin.

* Flash suppressants interrupt free-radical chain reaction in muzzle gases and work against secondary flash. They are typically alkali or alkaline earth salts that either are contained in the formulation of the propellant or exist as separate granules.

* Deterrents coat the exterior of the propellant granules to reduce the initial burning rate on the surface as well as to reduce initial flame temperature and ignitability. The coating also broadens the pressure peak and increases efficiency. Deterrents may be a penetrating type such as Herkoteâ, dibutyl phthalate, dinitrotoluene, ethyl centralite, methyl centralite, or dioctyl phthalate; or an inhibitor type such as Vinsolâ resin.

* Opacifiers enhance reproducibility primarily in large grains and keep radiant heat from penetrating the surface. They may also enhance the burning rate. The most common opacifier is carbon black.

* Dyes are added mainly for identification purposes.

* Other ingredients may be one of the following:
o A graphite glaze used to coat the powder to improve flow and packing density as well as to reduce static sensitivity and increase conductivity
o Bore erosion coatings applied as a glaze to reduce heat transfer to the barrel, but uncommon in small-arms propellants
o Ignition aid coatings that are most commonly used in ball powders to improve surface oxygen balance

FIGURE 1: Image showing drawings of 6 shapes--a perforated disk, a disc, a tube, a rod, a ball, and a lamel.
Figure 1 Common smokeless powder morphologies Click to enlarge image.
Chemical composition is one important
characteristic defining smokeless propellants; however, another important characteristic is its morphology. Shape and size have a profound effect on the burning rate and power generation of a
powder (Meyer 1987). Common particle shapes of smokeless propellants include balls, discs, perforated discs, tubes, perforated tubes, and aggregates (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 1994; Selavka et al. 1989). A few common types of smokeless powder morphologies can be seen in Figure 1 (Bender 1998).

Morphology also lends clues to whether a powder is single- or double-base (Bender 1998). Most tube and cylindrical powders are single-base, with the exception of the Hercules Reloaderâseries. Disc powders, ball powders, and aggregates are double-base, with the exceptions being the PB and SR series powders manufactured by IMR Powder Company of Plattsburg, New York.

Except for ball powder, smokeless powder is manufactured by one of two general methods, differing in whether organic solvents are used in the process (Meyer 1987; Radford Army Ammunition Plant 1987). A single-base powder typically incorporates the use of organic solvents. Nitrocellulose of high- and low-nitrogen content are combined with volatile organic solvents, desired additives are blended with them, and the resulting mixture is shaped by extrusion and cut into specified lengths. The granules are screened to ensure consistency, and the solvents are removed. Various coatings, such as deterrents and graphite, are applied to the surface of the granules. The powder is dried and screened again, then blended to achieve homogeneity.

The manufacture of double-base powders requires the addition of nitroglycerine to the nitrocellulose. Two methods can be used. One method uses organic solvents, the other uses water. The organic solvent method mixes nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine with solvents and any desired additives to form a doughy mixture (Meyer 1987; National Research Council 1998; Radford Army Ammunition Plant 1987). The mixture is then pressed into blocks that can be fed into the extrusion press and cutting machine. The resulting granules are screened prior to solvent removal and the application of various coatings. The powder is dried, screened again, then blended to achieve homogeneity. The water method adds the nitroglycerine to a nitrocellulose water suspension to form a paste (Meyer 1987; Radford Army Ammunition Plant 1987). The water is removed by evaporation on hot rollers, then the dried powder is shaped by extrusion and cutting.

Triple-base powders use a solvent-based process similar to the double-base powder process (Meyer 1987; Radford Army Ammunition Plant 1987). Nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine are premixed with additives prior to the addition of a nitroguanidine solvent mixture. The nitroguanidine is incorporated into the overall mass without dissolving in the other materials. The final mixture is then extruded, cut, and dried.

The manufacture of smokeless ball powder requires a more specialized procedure (National Research Council 1998). Nitrocellulose, stabilizers, and solvents are blended into a dough, then extruded through a pelletizing plate and formed into spheres. The solvent is removed from the granules, and nitroglycerine is impregnated into the granules. The spheres are then coated with deterrents and flattened with rollers. Finally, an additional coating with graphite and flash suppressants is applied, and the batch is mixed to ensure homogeneity.

In the manufacturing process, smokeless powders are recycled and reworked (National Research Council 1998). When a powder within a batch is found to be unsatisfactory, it is removed and returned to the process for use in another lot. Manufacturers save money by recycling returns by distributors or the return of surplus or obsolete military powders. Hence, reworking and recycling the material assures good quality control of the final product, reduces costs by reusing materials, and reduces pollution by avoiding destruction by burning.

Distribution

The production of smokeless powders is big business in the United States, where approximately 10 million pounds of commercial smokeless powders are produced each year. Most of the powder is sold to the original-equipment manufacturers to be used for manufacturing ammunition. A large amount is sold to domestic and foreign militaries (National Research Council 1998). The rest is sold in individual canisters (ranging from ½-pound cans to 12- or 20-pound kegs) to gun stores or hunting and shooting clubs for hunters and target shooters who prefer to hand load their own ammunition.

There are several ways smokeless powders are distributed within the United States (National Research Council 1998). Some manufacturers, foreign or domestic, produce, package, and sell their own powders commercially. They may also sell in bulk to resellers and to original-equipment manufacturers that repackage and sell it under their own labels. The powder manufacturers and repackagers may disburse large quantities of canister powders to distributors who later sell to smaller distributors and wholesalers, who in turn, supply cans to dealers, gun shops, shooting clubs, and other retailers. At this point, consumers can purchase a 1-pound canister of powder for approximately $15 to $20 from a retailer, though the cost per pound can be cheaper if bought by the keg or acquired through a gun club (National Research Council 1998).

Manufacturers who produce smokeless powders for the U.S. military can distribute it either by selling the powder directly to the military or by selling them the preloaded ammunition. Powders can also be shipped to U.S. military subcontractors, foreign governments, or foreign loading companies for loading into military ammunition (National Research Council 1998).

Improvised Explosive Devices

An explosion is the result of energy-releasing reactions, generally accompanied by the creation of heat and gases (a notable exception is thermites). A distinguishing characteristic of an explosion is the rate at which the reaction proceeds. There are low-order and high-order explosives, based on the speed at which the explosives decompose. In low-order explosives, the process of decomposition, called the speed of deflagration or burning, produces heat, light, and a subsonic pressure wave. (The reaction speed of the deflagrating material is less than the speed of sound.) In high-order explosives, decomposition occurs at the speed of detonation, creating a supersonic shock wave that causes a virtually instantaneous buildup of heat and gases. Table 1 shows some differences in low-order and high-order explosives (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms 1994; National Research Council 1998; Saferstein 1998).

For low-order explosives, rapid deflagration causes the production of large volumes of expanding gases at the origin of the explosion. The heat energy from the explosion also causes the gases to expand. When the explosive charge is confined in a closed container, the sudden buildup of expanding pressure exerts high pressure on the container walls causing the container to stretch, balloon, then burst, releasing fragments of debris to nearby surroundings. It is this fragmented debris that produces the fatal result following the deflagration of an improvised explosive device (Saferstein 1998).

The safest and most powerful low-order explosive is smokeless powder. These powders decompose at rates up to 1,000 meters per second and produce a propelling action that makes them suitable for use in ammunition. However, the slower burning rate of smokeless powder should not be underestimated. The explosive power of smokeless powder is extremely dangerous when confined to a small container. In addition, certain smokeless powders with a high-nitroglycerine concentration can be induced to detonate. On the other hand, high-order explosives do not need containment to demonstrate their explosive effects (Saferstein 1998). These materials detonate at rates from 1,000 to 8,500 meters per second, producing a shock wave with an outward rush of gases at supersonic speeds. This effect proves to be more destructive than the fragmented debris.

The typical smokeless powder improvised explosive device, a pipe bomb, is roughly 10 inches long and 1 inch wide and contains approximately ½ pound of powder. The materials used for these devices are cheap and readily obtainable at commercial establishments. Smokeless powder is attractive for use in improvised explosive devices, because it is readily available and has the potential for a powerful explosion when the powder is placed in a closed container (National Research Council 1998). Larger explosive devices usually use bulk materials such as ammonium nitrate and fuel oil, typically purchased in greater quantity at an even cheaper price.

Many types of containers are used in the construction of smokeless powder bombs (National Research Council 1998). Whereas metal pipes are most common, plastic pipes, cans, CO2 cartridges, and glass or plastic bottles have been used. These containers are often placed within larger packages for ease of transport and concealment.
FIGURE 2: Drawing of a tube of powder with screw-on end caps and a fuse.
Figure 2 Pipe Bomb Click to enlarge image.

Another important part of the powder bomb is the initiation system, which provides the impetus to start the powder burning within its container (National Research Council 1998). A few examples include cigarettes, matches, and safety fuses (Scott 1994; Stoffel 1972). Improvised explosive devices utilizing smokeless powders within a robust container often include an initiation system, as shown in Figure 2 (Scott 1994).

Using data from the National Research Council on reported actual and attempted bombings using propellants during the five-year period from 1992-1996, Table 2 illustrates an average of 653 incidents per year involving the use of black and smokeless powders. Bombs containing black or smokeless powders were responsible for an average yearly count of about 10 deaths, 83 injuries, and almost $1 million in property damage for each of the five years. Using the National Research Council's data involving devices filled with black and smokeless powders, Table 3 illustrates the number of actual bombings that caused at least one death, one injury, or a minimum of $1,000 in property damage, as well as attempted bombings aimed at significant targets (National Research Council 1998).

Analysis
FIGURE 3: A line graph with two prominent upward spikes.
Figure 3 Gradient HPLC analysis of an IMR 700X smokeless powder. Conditions Restek C-8 Column, 36-80% methanol/water gradient, 1 ml/min, UV detection at 230 nm. Figure courtesy of Chad Wissinger, Ohio University Click to enlarge image.

Many methods for the analysis of smokeless powders have appeared over the years. These procedures have been extensively reviewed in a number of recent texts (Beveridge 1998; National Research Council 1998; Yinon and Zitrin 1993). The initial characterization of the powders is assessed using powder morphology and spot tests. Various instrumental analytical techniques allow organic additives such as nitroglycerine, diphenylamine,
ethyl centralite, dinitrotoluene, and various phthalates to be detected and quantitated. These materials are usually analyzed using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry (Martz and Lasswell 1983) and liquid chromatography (Bender 1983; McCord and Bender 1998). Figure 3 illustrates the analysis of an IMR 700X powder using gradient high performance liquid chromatography (Wissinger and McCord 2002). More recently, methods involving capillary electrophoresis have also been shown to be effective (Northrop et al. 1991; Smith et al. 1999). Fourier transform infrared microscopy can be used for the identification of nitrocellulose (Zitrin 1998).
FIGURE 4: A line graph with 1 prominent downward spike.
Figure 4 IC Analysis of H414 smokeless powder by Hodgdon. Conditions Nucleosil Anion IIÒ Column, 1mM DCTA pH 5.2, 1.5 ml/min, UV detection at 205 nm. Click to enlarge image.

The process of manufacturing smokeless powders provides sources of inorganic ions that are present in postblast residue. These can be analyzed by ion chromatography. Although not unique to propellants, the presence of these ions can be used
in forensic analysis to aid in the identification of the unknown powder. Potassium sulfate, sodium sulfate, potassium nitrate, barium nitrate, and other salts
may be added during the processing of the powder. Nitrate, sulfate, hydrogen sulfide, chloride, and nitrite may appear as a result of the reactions for treating
the cellulose to obtain nitrocellulose (Radford Army Ammunition Plant 1987). Figure 4 illustrates the analysis of H414 smokeless powder using ion chromatography. Also documented has been the presence of various cations found in the residue of smokeless powders after deflagration (Hall and McCord 1993; Miyauchi et al. 1998).

Conclusions

The wide variety of chemical components and the different morphologies of smokeless powders present a challenge for the forensic investigator. Physical characteristics of partially burned and unburned powder as well as the organic and inorganic materials that remain must be considered in the analysis of postblast residue. Although there are many techniques available for the determination of components in smokeless powder residue, the various formulations of powders make it necessary to continue the advancement of existing analyses and to develop new methods for testing the full range of available smokeless powders.

quote:

In the manufacturing process, smokeless powders are recycled and reworked (National Research Council 1998). When a powder within a batch is found to be unsatisfactory, it is removed and returned to the process for use in another lot. Manufacturers save money by recycling returns by distributors or the return of surplus or obsolete military powders. Hence, reworking and recycling the material assures good quality control of the final product, reduces costs by reusing materials, and reduces pollution by avoiding destruction by burning.

I'm not a scholar, but it appears that mixing is an accepted practice to reduce waste, pollution and maintain consistency.

Am I getting this right?

If you don't ever mix powders, whether the same lot or not, you will never have to wonder what will happen when you pull the trigger. I had a buddy that mixed, until he blew up a rifle. Good shooting.

I try to buy my powder--in 1lb cans--w/ the same lot #s. If say I have 2 lbs of RL15---of the same lot, I would have no problem mixing them and then going thru the load workup process. Different lots, not so sure a/b that.

Come on, guys. We're not talking about duplex loads or mixing two or more dissimilar powders to try and come up with a different powder, we're talking about taking a partial can of IMR4350 and topping off another can of IMR4350 and rolling it about to mix the two amounts of IMR4350. The results may be slightly different but I haven't found that to be remarkable in over 40 years of mixing. AND in those over 40 years of mixing, when I switch cans of the same powder, I don't rework the load. I just keep on loading and shooting. To appease the chicken littles, I'll say I don't recommend that but it's what I do.

Aside to homebrewer: We are not talking about powder A and powder B. We are talking about two cans labeled the same. Whilst you can't properly identify a unknown powder by appearance, You can certainly look into a new can of IMR4350 that is labeled IMR4350 and say, "Wow, the little logs are the same length, the little logs are the same diameter and the same colour as my old can labeled IMR4350. Ergo, there is a strong possibility that this is the same stuff." If one can has ball powder in it instead of little logs, or there is a descrepancy between the size of the logs, ie, IMR4350 and IMR3031, then you would naturally have a reason for concern. Neat huh? (I don't know how I got hung up on IMR4350)

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Come on, guys. We're not talking about duplex loads or mixing two or more dissimilar powders to try and come up with a different powder, we're talking about taking a partial can of IMR4350 and topping off another can of IMR4350 and rolling it about to mix the two amounts of IMR4350. The results may be slightly different but I haven't found that to be remarkable in over 40 years of mixing. AND in those over 40 years of mixing, when I switch cans of the same powder, I don't rework the load. I just keep on loading and shooting. To appease the chicken littles, I'll say I don't recommend that but it's what I do.

Aside to homebrewer: We are not talking about powder A and powder B. We are talking about two cans labeled the same. Whilst you can't properly identify a unknown powder by appearance, You can certainly look into a new can of IMR4350 that is labeled IMR4350 and say, "Wow, the little logs are the same length, the little logs are the same diameter and the same colour as my old can labeled IMR4350. Ergo, there is a strong possibility that this is the same stuff." If one can has ball powder in it instead of little logs, or there is a descrepancy between the size of the logs, ie, IMR4350 and IMR3031, then you would naturally have a reason for concern. Neat huh? (I don't know how I got hung up on IMR4350)

I would hope all here would be above the level of mixing two different powders! If it's an issue, how do you know what powder you are using to begin with? Someone here said his buddy blew up his rifle doing this. What if he used the dissimilar and guilty powder and didn't mix it, it would have blown anyway because he obviously didn't know what it was..? I understand that chemicals react and interact like ammonia and bleach, but were talking about the same thing with the wide exception of minutely different quantities of the same chemicals.

Interesting discussion in any event!

quote:

I see no reason to mix different lots of powder. If lot A is any different than lot B then how could lot AB be the same as either?
And would A and B be mixed 1 to 1 or would 1/2 lb A be mixed with 1 lb B forming lot ABB? That is just crazy, use all of lot A and if lot B is and different then a small adjustment in the charge could be made if needed.

AN neither do I ; It's not about safety or anything like that . It's simply a matter of practicality !.

WHAT FOR ?. Powder and primers are TWO components none of us have any control over except their proper

storage PERIOD !. Making Powder is pretty much an exacting science ( Manufacturing however isn't ! )

I suppose none of you has ever wondered what makes the Chrony show 87 or 26 FPS differences in the EXACT

same meticulously Handloaded cartridges , we're all so proud of !?.

Check out a particular powder manufacturer and then another and so on look at where they list a

particular powders burn rate . SURPRISE they vary don't they !. Welcome to planet earth

where not everything is always as it seems to be !.

The only reason I mix powders ,is if I need to load more rounds than the container I have can load .

I then take the smallest container pour it into a separate non metallic container and open a new

container and either eye ball or weigh out what I'll be using . Without contaminating my NEW Powder !.

The older you get the wiser you become or at least look like you have intelligence

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Been mixing for 40 years.

Been mixing for 20 and will continue to do so. Vapo gave good info. I do that very thing sometimes. And I've done it with Re22. It was 6 one pound containers with 3 different lot #s. No problem and I shot that up in about 3 years.

doc224 Regardless of whether you are mixing a greater and lesser amount or whether you are mixing the same amount of each, it's the same thing.
As far as the variation amongst lots of powder, I think we are blest with the consistancy of our components. As I said, over the years I've learned that you can indeed go from one lot to another w/o significant effects.
Addressing your scenerio of factory screw ups, if you have been using one can of powder w/o a problem and then mixed it with another can of obstenively the same powder, and you failed to note that there was a large descrepency in the appearence of the powder, and you blew your rifle up, the fault is entirely in the second can of powder. It would have blown up your rifle regardless of any mixing that was done.
I'm not a powder expert (not even near) but I understand that ALL IMR powder is the same stuff. The different burn rates are acchieved by the diameter of the logs and surface deterents.

As an aside, I went out this evening and popped off five rounds of my mystery powder in mil-surp cases, with crimped bullets. No flattened primers. Looks like a good .223 load .

Just did it last with some RL 19. Mixed about a quarter pound with a new pound.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
If you don't ever mix powders, whether the same lot or not, you will never have to wonder what will happen when you pull the trigger. I had a buddy that mixed, until he blew up a rifle. Good shooting.

The question wasn't can you mix different powders but same powders of diff. lots. I doubt your friend blew his rifle up mixing same powders of diff lots.

quote:

I'm not a powder expert (not even near) but I understand that ALL IMR powder is the same stuff. The different burn rates are acchieved by the diameter of the logs and surface deterents.

Not sure I agree w/ that though. Yes, they are alls stick powders, but that is where the ism ends. My modest collection of IMR powders shows they all vary in color (caating), length & diameter, thus not all the same.

WAIT a Minute ; Who said blowing up anything ?.

My point simply was ,what advantage does mixing two powders of same Brand an burn rate different batch lot #'s

do for anyone ?. Powder is held at approximately 3% variable , while Primers even match at 2% variation .

So as I've previously stated on several occasions 5 % is beyond any of our control !.

I personally see NO Advantage with mixing powders of different lot #'s . Explain that too me .


The question wasn't can you mix different powders but same powders of diff. lots. I doubt your friend blew his rifle up mixing same powders of diff lots. Same brand an type powder of different lots with a previously safe known load , would be IMPOSSIBLE to blow up same said Firearm !. That's why SAAMI sets standards . An believe me powder manufactures pay CLOSE attention to that all important detail !.

I defy anyone to show a significant spike in pressure with mixing #2 different lots of same brand an Type of

powder !. Stop and simply consider if that could be a serious consideration We wouldn't be allowed to

purchase powder PERIOD !.

FredJ338, it's my understanding that the stuff that goes bang is all the same stuff and it's burn rate is acchieved by varying the log size and surface coatings. This is why you have different sized logs and colours.

doc224, did I read your post wrong? You sound like you agree with us mixers.

My buddy that blew up a rifle said he didn't mix different powders, only the same powder of differing lots. However he was constantly asking me about powders of different makes and how they looked alike. The fact is, he blew up a freaking rifle and mixed powders. Even a very careful reloader can get to much powder in a case for a number of reasons, mix different lots and make a mistake and what do you get. Once again, don't mix, be double careful and lessen your worries. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
I personally see NO Advantage with mixing powders of different lot #'s . Explain that too me .

Ok, I'll explain. I was completely out of a powder. It was Re22. I went to 2 different stores, bought 4 pounds, 2 at one store and 2 at the other. Drove to CO for a hunt, picked up 2 pounds out there. Came home and mixed all 6 pounds with different lot #s to create my "mix." I bought all that I found at each place. They were mixed thoroughly. I was able to pitch 2 of the bottles because you can fit more than one pound in a bottle. Each bottle was dated, labeled as mixed, and each lot# was placed on the label as well. Now that they are mixed, I have ONE lot# that I created and 6 pounds of it.

Loads were worked up as usual in several rifles and I found excellent accuracy within a grain or even a half grain as past "pet loads." Never a problem, and mixing is and has been no big deal. I'd much rather do that than have to dicker with each new lot.

I've done the same with the following and have been doing it for 20 years and have never had a problem:

IMR 4350, 4831, 7828, 4064, 3031, Re19, 22, 25, H4831SC, 4350, 1000, Retumbo, 414, AA3100, 4350, VVN560, 160, and W760.

I've never had one issue and I keep a log book with me at the range to take notes. In fact, the Reloder powders and H4831SC and Retumbo are the ones that seem most repeatable with consistency lot to lot or mix. I've had more problems with load changes with IMR powders in general except for 4350. Going on memory, AA3100 was the most fussy lot to lot. I stopped using it.

By the way, taking into account my previous post, I do want to say that I PREFER to buy lots of powder in one lot #, like anyone else I would think.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
My buddy that blew up a rifle said he didn't mix different powders, only the same powder of differing lots. However he was constantly asking me about powders of different makes and how they looked alike. The fact is, he blew up a freaking rifle and mixed powders. Even a very careful reloader can get to much powder in a case for a number of reasons, mix different lots and make a mistake and what do you get. Once again, don't mix, be double careful and lessen your worries. Good shooting.

As described, this is an impossible occurance and therefore a meaningless anecdotal data point. Maybe your buddy did "blow up a rifle" but I can assure you it didn't happen solely because he blended powders whose only difference was lot numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
Even a very careful reloader can get to much powder in a case for a number of reasons

I'd pick this reason long before mixing powders of the same lot.

Hmmmm, a too fast powder in a large case??? Double charge??

Those of you that mix powders, tell us how you go about mixing. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
Those of you that mix powders, tell us how you go about mixing. Good shooting.

For my Re22 example, I had 6 pounds, 2 pounds each with same lot number. So, say, 2 of lot A, B, and C. I had someone help me, we opened 1 pound each from each lot number, so they were all different (one A, one B, and one C). At the same time and speed, we dumped those 3 pounds slowly into a metal mixing bowl, put a rubber lid on it and turn mixed it for about 30 seconds, even though it was mixed as it was dumped. Then we repeated the process with the remaining 3 pounds all of different lot numbers again (one A, one B, and one C). So now I have 2 batches of A-B-C. Then I mixed those 2 in a bigger bowl. I discarded 2 of the containers and the 6 pounds of powder went into 4 containers. Took about 3 minutes for the process if that.

I wound up with "ONE" lot number from the mix. Worked out just fine. In fact I'll be mixing another 5-6 pounds of Re22 soon, and mixing 2 pounds of H4350 with an 8 pound jug I just bought.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
Those of you that mix powders, tell us how you go about mixing. Good shooting.

For my Re22 example, I had 6 pounds, 2 pounds each with same lot number. So, say, 2 of lot A, B, and C. I had someone help me, we opened 1 pound each from each lot number, so they were all different (one A, one B, and one C). At the same time and speed, we dumped those 3 pounds slowly into a metal mixing bowl, put a rubber lid on it and turn mixed it for about 30 seconds, even though it was mixed as it was dumbped. Then we repeated the process with the remaining 3 pounds all of different lot numbers again (one A, one B, and one C). So now I have 2 batches of A-B-C. Then I mixed those 2 in a bigger bowl. I discarded 2 of the containers and the 6 pounds of powder went into 4 containers. Took about 3 minutes for the process if that.

I wound up with "ONE" lot number from the mix. Worked out just fine. In fact I'll be mixing another 5-6 pounds of Re22 soon, and mixing 2 pounds of H4350 with an 8 pound jug I just bought.

I'm convinced what you are doing is not only safe, but tends to be common practice even with the manufacturers. The key here I believe is not to change the shape or rather shorten the sticks or refine the powder (reduction) as it may lead to increased pressure. (That's out to debate as well). I have a rock tumbler with a 3 Qt. bottle that can go as slow as 5 RPM ensuring the powder will not get deformed and getting a complete mix in about 20 minutes.