I'm new to reloading and have just shot some of my first batch of reloads. The rifle is a Blaser R93 in 308Win.

I'm looking for some general advice as to what is normal and just trying to fix a baseline in my head. First I will post some pictures of factory loads shot in my rifle. These are 150 grain Winchester and 150 grain Federal factory loads. As you can see the primers in the factory loads are quite flattened:





Below are my home loads. As you can see I colour code the primer so I know what the load was. The cases are Lapua with CCI primers shooting a 150 grain Hornady Spire Point and the green load was 41.5gr of Reloader 15 with the red load 42gr of Reloader 15. These are pretty close to the starting load (I did actually start at 41gr but the cases look the same) of 41gr according to my Lyman manual:





So, should I be concerned about how much the factory loads flatten the primers? I've shot lots of them with no problem but thought it would be interesting to get the views here. Also, as you can see it looks like the primers in my home reloads have "backed out" a little. The unfired loads definately have the primers seated just below the level of the bottom of the case but the fired primers look to be sitting a little higher. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

As ever all thoughts gratefully received.

your headspace is probably long, it appears even the factory loads are also backed out

If you are having problems with head space I suggest you get a headspace gage like the one Wilson makes. If used properly it will help you keep from pushing the shoulder back to far while sizing the cartridges causing the primers to pop out then be reset flattening them. This has been my experience in the past with a 30-06 and a set of Hornady New Dimension dies that made the trash.

Another possible cause of flat primers it to hot a load but if you are using a starting charge that shouldn’t be the problem.

Most of the reloading data I have read cautions about loading less than the recommended starting charge.

Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
your headspace is probably long, it appears even the factory loads are also backed out

possibly but I didn't notice that....maybe optical illusion

The reloads seem to be considerable less pressure.

I see nothing wrong or of concern about the factory loads.

Obviously with nothing to judge except appearance of the primer.....but it's one of the possible indicators.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. The rifle is a Blaser R93 and I'm not at all sure how the headspace is set on it but the bolt effectively locks into the rear of the chamber. The cases were once fired, in my rifle, but full length resized

It must be said that the primers on the factory cases don't look like they are backed out when you have them in your hand but I admit they look a bit backed out in the photos. Are you suggesting, jeffeosso, that the primers have backed out and then the pressure of the expanding case has flattened them against the bolt? Sorry if I'm missing something but this is the best way I can imagine things happening.

Also, based on this if I work my reloads up and they start looking like the primers in the factory ammo should I reduce the load or does the degree of flattening look reasonable? I know you can find no cause for concern with the factory loads vapodog but would you reload to that same level of flattening?

Once more thanks for all the info, I'm sort of trying to establish just what is normal here so all the comments are most useful.

Resize to the point of no more then 0.002"-0.003" shoulder set-back for optimum fit and case life. If you push the shoulder back much more when sizeing, some flattening will often occure no matter if pressures are too high or not.
The factory brass, and this goes for component and factory loaded ammo, is sized to fit any chamber within SAAMI spec and is usually quite sloppy in headspace. This allows the primer to back out a bit and flatten from set back when fired. I wouldn`t worry about factory or new brass primer appearance, wait until the 2nd fireing to for that.
This doesn`t mean ignore a "ironed out" or blown primer in a new case.

Looks to me like your full length resize set the shoulder back a tuch to much for your chamber. Like Ol' Joe said set it for your chamber. You load is a very low pressure so the firing pin moved the case forward. Pressure moved the primer back but there was not enough to stretch the brass.

quote:

...that the primers have backed out and then the pressure of the expanding case has flattened them against the bolt?

The Primers get flattened on the edges when the case head moves back against the bolt face, reseating the primer.

second picture, second case, silver, looks like it is standing off, perhaps.

the factory loads scare me ALOT, but, then again, i don't shoot factory ammo!

I'm with vapor...I think they look normal. The Blazer is a pretty quality rifle. When you resize your brass back off the sizer die so there is just a tad of space between the die and shellholder. Then keep trying resized empty brass until the bolt just locks up. Rarely do you ever have to run the shell holder up against the die mouth.

Joe

Someone told you that you could judge pressure by comparing the primers of previously unfired cases to those of previously fired cases? Sorry, they misled you.

"Flattening" is a poor way to guesstimate pressure. The amount of flattening is more related to the fit of the cartridge in the chamber than to absolute chamber pressure.

Also, comparing the appearance of one brand/type of primer to another is pointless. Primers vary in cup thickness and hardness, so the difference in appearance between different fired primers could mean nothing.

About the only thing you can tell from primer appearance is when you are approaching the failure point of the primer cup itself. This will manifest itself in ridging around the firing pin indentation, or a shallowing of the indentation, or both; these are precursors to pierced (failed) primers. But don't confuse ridging from excessive pressure with ridging from a poor fit of the firing pin in its hole. A sloppy hole will make a ridge in the primer cup even with modest pressures.

Sticky bolt lift, bright spots on the case head, and primer pockets that are noticeably loosened are much more dependable indicators that your are exceeding the sustainable pressure capacity of your cases.

Thats what I was thinking Stonecreek. Who knows what primers were used in those factory loads. I find it hard to beleive a Blazer would have a headspace problem.

Thanks to everyone for the replies as it has given me lots to consider and work on. As ever with something new it is a case of expanding knowledge and of getting a sort of baseline of what is acceptable.

My Blaser was recently checked over by the UK agent and was pronounced in fine shape (due to something slightly odd that happened which it now seems was not related to the rifle) so I don't think it has a headspace problem, though you never can be sure. However, I hadn't considered that I may be bumping the shoulder back too far with my reloads and I will experiment by screwing my die up just a fraction. A screw up on my part seems the most likely explaination.

I can't explain the flattening of the factory primers and it was certainly something I was aware of and had considered as perhaps a little strange. However it is only in the photos that they appear to be "backed out." When you have them in your hand they are at least flush with the case head, though I see what jeffeosso is saying about one particular one that really does look backed out in the photo.

In keeping with what stonecreek says the bolt "lift" (if you can say such a thing with Blaser) is not sticky in any way and that I can see there are no marks on the heads of the cases.

Once again thanks for all your time and knowledge folks and I hope you will bear with me when I come back with more questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Someone told you that you could judge pressure by comparing the primers of previously unfired cases to those of previously fired cases? Sorry, they misled you.

"Flattening" is a poor way to guesstimate pressure. The amount of flattening is more related to the fit of the cartridge in the chamber than to absolute chamber pressure.

Also, comparing the appearance of one brand/type of primer to another is pointless. Primers vary in cup thickness and hardness, so the difference in appearance between different fired primers could mean nothing.

About the only thing you can tell from primer appearance is when you are approaching the failure point of the primer cup itself. This will manifest itself in ridging around the firing pin indentation, or a shallowing of the indentation, or both; these are precursors to pierced (failed) primers. But don't confuse ridging from excessive pressure with ridging from a poor fit of the firing pin in its hole. A sloppy hole will make a ridge in the primer cup even with modest pressures.

Sticky bolt lift, bright spots on the case head, and primer pockets that are noticeably loosened are much more dependable indicators that your are exceeding the sustainable pressure capacity of your cases.

Wow! Thanks for that info, I was going to start asking about some of my cases. You and as well as MR 303, solved some issues I was going to start a thread on. A friend of mine has a Rem-700 in 30-06 and I use a 1903A3 Springfield. His rifle will completely flatten the primers it fires. 303 answered that one for me, then there were other issues I wanted to ask about the ridging of the primer and more.
I m shooting mostly lead out of my rifles now a days and I had not even made it to max loads in the new Lyman book. I think that powder is destined to blow up a old beaver dam at about 110 120yds.

+1 to all posting helpful info!

Clearly this was useful to James as well as me and I know that similar questions get asked a lot, I've read them myself but thought that I would get some "personal" reaction to my cases.

Would there be any value in compiling some of the photos and comments on this subject into a "sticky" thread on the subject? I don't just mean my photos but a selection from the loads of photos of cases we see posted here plus the very valuable comments. It might be quite a long thread but it's a complex subject and so worth a thorough treatment.

Caorach:

Do a search and read up on P-FLR. Those posts will give you the techniques you need to custom fit your ammo to your chamber and reduce or eliminate headspace problems (as long as your chamber is not "way out".

Those are damned nice pictures. What camera do you use? Are those macro shots, or taken from a distance, enlarged and cropped? They are very sharp in focus; I am envious...

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you homebrewer but unfortunately sometimes I have to go to work to make money to shoot :-)

They were taken with my little Canon G9, so nothing too fancy, and they are macro shots though I cropped them back a little to get rid of the surroundings and resized them to make them small enough for photobucket. Out of the camera they are quite large as you might imagine. The following is a "full size" section of one of the photos, though it is quite heavily jpeg compressed:



They were done with the auto-focus at 100ASA and the flash off but basically everything was automatic.

Because the sensor in the G9 is so small it can get quite noisey especially at higher ASA settings. If I can I will try to get a few shots at a higher ASA setting just for your reference, though my jpeg compression is always going to be a factor. The G9 can produce a raw output but I've just used the jpeg for these shots.

However, I've been quite impressed with the macro from this camera, getting the focus etc. can be a bit hit and miss sometimes but generally it is perfect.

Here are a few pictures showing the effect of bumping up the ASA setting. These are full size crops of a much larger frame so they fit photobucket etc. and they are also jpeg out of the camera and then further jpeg compressed for posting, however you'll get the idea:


200ASA


400ASA


800ASA



1600ASA

Resurrecting this thread. I have a Blaser R93 in .416 Rem Mag. I have noticed that my primers do the same thing. The load I am shooting is not particularly hot and in fact chronos at just under 2300 fps with a 400 grain bullet. The only odd sign on fired brass is the flattened primer, extraction is fine, etc. I have shot the identical load in other .416 Rem Mags and the primers come out looking fine. I am thinking this may have more to do with the lock up system on the R93 than it does with load pressure. Unlike a traditional bolt where the bolt face and lugs can be more or less matched to the chamber, the R93, with interchangeable barrels may not lock up such that the primer cannot move back at all under pressure. Just a guess, but it is interesting that the rifle that started this thread was an R93 too.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Resurrecting this thread. I have a Blaser R93 in .416 Rem Mag. I have noticed that my primers do the same thing. The load I am shooting is not particularly hot and in fact chronos at just under 2300 fps with a 400 grain bullet. The only odd sign on fired brass is the flattened primer, extraction is fine, etc. I have shot the identical load in other .416 Rem Mags and the primers come out looking fine. I am thinking this may have more to do with the lock up system on the R93 than it does with load pressure. Unlike a traditional bolt where the bolt face and lugs can be more or less matched to the chamber, the R93, with interchangeable barrels may not lock up such that the primer cannot move back at all under pressure. Just a guess, but it is interesting that the rifle that started this thread was an R93 too.

You might have a really tight chamber.Are the cases shot in the Blaser much easier to resize than your cases shot from the other 416's? I think pressure alone would be responsible for the degree in which primers are flattened.

Those super-macro pictures are awesome, caorach. That's what I want to do with my S3. I have no idea what RAW is, although I have heard the term. My best macro shot to date is in the Reloading Pictures to Share thread. It's the one of the brass washer and captive toothed-washer picture on my RCBS die. Took that one from maybe 18 inches...

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
your headspace is probably long, it appears even the factory loads are also backed out

possibly but I didn't notice that....maybe optical illusion

The reloads seem to be considerable less pressure.

I see nothing wrong or of concern about the factory loads.

Obviously with nothing to judge except appearance of the primer.....but it's one of the possible indicators.

Same here nothing wrong from my POV.

Another very OLD post See photos when things go wrong here Kaboom Photos

I too didn't see a whole lot wrong with any of the primers unless a guy was being super anal. Then too, the primer, by itself, is the worst sign to use to read for pressure.
If the poster will FQA "partial full length resizing" and set his dies up accordingly, his problems will go away. Without, I might add, buying anymore "stuff".

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

Sticky bolt lift, bright spots on the case head, and primer pockets that are noticeably loosened are much more dependable indicators that your are exceeding the sustainable pressure capacity of your cases.

+1

I don't see anything like a flattened primer (by what I look for). I consider mine flattened to concern when there is NO bevel left on the primer and it is smeared across the entire primer pocket and I need a rubber mallet to open the bolt, THEN, I consider it flattened. (Well, maybe a little before the mallet.)
I agree with the previous two posters, I see no extracter flow, I see no bolt face engraving, I see no flattening of the primer.
That said, if you feel it is unsafe, then, stop. Ask if you are unsure. Never guess.

my 2 cents.
rc

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

Sticky bolt lift, bright spots on the case head, and primer pockets that are noticeably loosened are much more dependable indicators that your are exceeding the sustainable pressure capacity of your cases.

+1

+2

Stonecreek hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't waste too much time looking at primers. Don't ignore them, but not the best indicators in my experience. I have experienced pressure problems and the primers looked fine. However the bolt was difficult to lift and there were shiny marks on the cases. I backed off on the powder and no more problems.

Good to see this thread pop up again now that it is almost a year old as I have a few things to add that might be of interest.

I started out neck sizing my cases but found that some of them wouldn't chamber in my R93. Some other folks with Blaser rifles said this was to be expected and to FL size for Blasers. So, I got some Redding dies and started full length sizing with some success. I then started to screw the die up a little so I was sort of partial FL resizing and not bumping the shoulder back so much and that helped with the primers even as I worked up the load.

After hearing lots of good things about the Lee collet neck sizing die I decided to give it a try. I am on my 5th resizing of some of my brass with the Lee die and am not having any problems with primers even though I'm now loading a book max load which happens to be accurate in my rifle. I guess that at some point I'm going to have to full length size again but even so have been impressed with the easy of the neck sizing and with how successful it has been for me. If I remember I might try to get some photos of the primers. The pockets are not getting lose, even after quite a few relaods on some of the cases.

I'm going to try and put the load over the chrono at some point but depend on borrowing one and can't manage that right now.

Clearly reloading, especially for a beginner like me, is always evolving and so maybe in another year my position will be different but I thought some might be interested to see how things are progressing.

edit for spelling.

Get the lee case length cutter and keep them trimmed. You may never need to full length resize them again (as long as you stick to the same gun). Also at some point they may get hardened to the point you need to anneal them. Not for this post though. rc

That's what I did RC and so far it is working well for me, I put them all through the trimmer every firing and the majority don't need it but the occasional one gets some brass shaved off.

I've taken some more photos to show what my primers are now like and thought that some folks might be interested.

May I add a few points to this excellent thread.

Firstly factory ammo & factory new brass are not uniform. (Lapua seems to be the most uniform). They are mass produced by drawing / stamping (?) and this causes a fair amount of variations. I always full length size NEW brass before the FIRST reload. Compare the sized brass & the new brass and you will see the differences at the shoulder & neck.

Secondly - as a consequence of the above, factory ammo is often slightly undersized for most chambers. This causes the flat primer syndrome. I checked this out with various factory ammo users at the club range shoots and that relieved me of all the stress & tension I was going through, worried that I had wasted money on a bum rifle!

Your idea of partial full sizing and neck sizing is exactly what I do & it works fine.

The photos are very good & they clearly show that the lettering is not smeared. With high pressure loads, the lettering gets smeared and the primer seating is loose. These are real symptoms of HOT loads - meaning 1 to 2 grains over max - probably 10% too hot in terms of pressure. The correlation between powder charge & pressure is NOT LINEAR. So a 10% increase in powder charge could result in 20% increase in pressure - which could be about 15,000 PSI above the limit!

Have fun & be safe.

Starting load, Book max load and "a little" to much powder. That rifle has the headspace set to -.001 BTW (IOW it won't close on a GO gauge)

BTW, you started with a FLAT primer, so just how much flatter do you think it can get?
"Primer flattening" WAS a "indicator" back when we were using rounded primers (some of us are old enough to remember when press priming systems came with 4 punches, lg and sm flat AND lg and sm cupped)

Those are good pictures tailgunner, I must take a look and see what my decapped primers look like.

For information the photos above were a load of 49 grains of RL15 with a 150 grain Hornaday Spire Point and CCI primers. This is the book max load in the Speer manual for a 150 grain bullet.

I have found that my Blaser seems to like loads from manuals that publish maximums a little on the high side. I was loading close to the book max for another manual but on testing found that I was probably just about making enough velocity to be deer legal everwhere in the UK (minimum muzzle velocity 2450fps). I have also found that some book starting loads were giving me significant low pressure signs with very black cases. The Speer manual seems to publish loads on the high side compared to others but they seem to work well in my rifle with, as you can see, no obvious pressure signs.

It is certainly an interesting learning experience and although it has taken me a year to work up to my current load it has been an interesting trip.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:


Starting load, Book max load and "a little" to much powder. That rifle has the headspace set to -.001 BTW (IOW it won't close on a GO gauge)

BTW, you started with a FLAT primer, so just how much flatter do you think it can get?
"Primer flattening" WAS a "indicator" back when we were using rounded primers (some of us are old enough to remember when press priming systems came with 4 punches, lg and sm flat AND lg and sm cupped)

I used to measure the primers with a micrometer when developing loads for calibers with old data but being used in modern rifles. The third primer has a clear "hat brim" and is too hot. the second one is just starting to develop a brim and that is the max you would want to go. But I ALWAYS check if primer re-seating is tight. If the load is too hot it will always open up the primer pocket.