I have pulled some bullets and kept the powder.
Some where Imr-3031 and some Imr-4064.I have them separated,but noticed the start/Max powder charge data iam using in the 45-70 are the same.
If for some reason the powders got mixed by one of the rounds,will I still have the same burn rate and no pressure problems should occur since iam loading start/middle book data charges and not max?
Or
am I flirting with disaster?

I suggest you get a couple manuals and read them.

Then, sell all of your reloading equipment and supplies before you kill someone.

You Mad Bro?

Never mind what Steve said, it was not necessary.

If I were to accidently mix two powders, I'd use them as expensive lawn fertilizer. Chop it up as a mistake and move on.

Thanks Greybird!
That's what I do.I just have been reading a lot on all these other forums and came here for "Expert advice" to see what reloaders here have to say about there experiance,this is still"accuratereloading" right?
I guess some folk think they were born with all the info they will ever need in there little Perfect world!
Both powders do look alike....sorry if anyone got butt hurt

This is a job for the porcelain throne.

[QUOTE
am I flirting with disaster? [/QUOTE]

yes

If I were to mix 3031 and 4064, each with starting loads in a 45-70, there is no problem. This is not true in bottleneck cases; that is really where burning rates change. However, it is not a good idea to promote or recommend this practice because with another powder or cartridge, you might get into trouble. So, in this case ONLY; ok. NEVER do it again. Unless you are shooting a trapdoor; then no.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 458PHCAPSTICK:
I have pulled some bullets and kept the powder.
Some where Imr-3031 and some Imr-4064.I have them separated,but noticed the start/Max powder charge data iam using in the 45-70 are the same.

I could not find corroboration in the manuals and personally since the two powders have significantly different burning rates I feel there is something here that isn't quite right , no shoulder or not.
You're saying Max. charge????? Trap door, Mod 95 lever or modern high strength action? Each has different data.
To follow the advise to go ahead and use them just this once is rather wild.

Feed your ROSES. roger

a"porcelain throne " ?
That reminds me of the cop who didn't remember how to safely de-cock his loaded revolver so he fired it into the toilet !!
The NYPD has a 'rubber gun squad' for those types .

I pulled and chunked the powder,it all looked the same and I really don't think it was mixed..but Thanks friends for the kind advice

That is fine if you felt better throwing it away. . Since 3031 and 4064 are close in burning rate, as I am sure you already noticed from your loading manuals, there is about a 3 grain difference in load data for the 45-70 with of course, 3031 using the lesser amount for the same velocity. So, since you said you were using starting to medium loads, those 3 grains would have made no difference with regard to them being safe even if you used 3031 with 4064 data. In this case, the term "wild" is not germane.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
In this case, the term "wild" is not germane.

It's not Italian either. roger

quote:

Originally posted by 458PHCAPSTICK:
I guess some folk think they were born with all the info they will ever need in there little Perfect world!
Both powders do look alike....sorry if anyone got butt hurt

Pretty snyde for someone asking about mixing powder recepies..

quote:

posted 29 January 2014 08:56 Hide Post
sorry if anyone got butt hurt

Keep in mind that you asked the question. Although Steve's reply was a little strong and snippy, you were the one that mixed the powders. You received good advise from the other people that replied.

Everyone has missed the MOST IMPORTANT POINT, to me, IMHO.

Pull powder from factory ammo has NO relationship to canister powder you can buy and the data for canister powder. Any other assumption is SUICIDAL!!!.

Col. Nonte went over this in one of his books. They load the machines and turn them on without any good idea of what will come out. Yes, they will know if it will be ball or stick powder but "burn rate?" No. They test when batch is done. If it is near "canister rate" they set is aside and blend, coat, whatever to reach "canister rate" and pack for sale. 1 lb. 8 lb. etc. Otherwise they pack in commercial packages and ship to ammo makers with labs who work up a load, set their machines and turn out 100K or 500K rounds with tests every few thousand.

Just because it looks like means nothing. Working up a load is taking your life in your hands. It could look like 4350 and burn like 3031... It is full of nitrogen. Sprinkle it on the lawn or garden. Not a balanced fertilizer but better than polluting with more nitro down the crapper. Luck. Happy trails.

I agree with all the others as far as fertilizer goes. At >20 cents per round, its not worth the safety issue.
New member here BTW, this is my first post ever (woo HOO)

I think he's pulling our leg. Ain't no way this guy is this dumb.

quote:

Originally posted by 458PHCAPSTICK:
I have pulled some bullets and kept the powder.
Some where Imr-3031 and some Imr-4064.I have them separated,but noticed the start/Max powder charge data iam using in the 45-70 are the same.
If for some reason the powders got mixed by one of the rounds,will I still have the same burn rate and no pressure problems should occur since iam loading start/middle book data charges and not max?
Or
am I flirting with disaster?

Here is what we do with mixed powders - either mixed on purpose, or not intentionally.


Please remember, this is what we do, not necessarily what I am recommending that you do.

1. We have experimented with mixing powders to see if we can improve the velocity of a load.

The results were not convincing enough for us to continue to do this. Everything was perfectly safe, and we have had slight improvement in velocity.

2. WE have pulled bullets out of soiled military rounds - AK47, 5.56, 7.62 etc.

The AK47 ammo was from different manufacturers. The powders were of different types. Some were ball, some were flake, and some were small sticks.

We have always mixed these together - regardless of type. We use these for loading 223 Remington ammo for practice.

3. Same thing with powder collected from either 5.56 or 7.62.

4. Sometimes we get powder we have no knowledge of its origin.
We make a guess from how it looks.

If it is large stick, we try it in the 308 and get an idea of its performance from the velocity readings we get.

If it is small sticks, we try it in the 222 Remington and get an idea from the velocity of what it might be close to.

If it is ball powder, we try it in a 357 Magnum pistol first, and then in the 222 to get an idea of its performance.

If it is flakes, again, the 357 Magnum is the first thing we try it in.

We arrive at an idea of what these powders might be - close to - from the velocity found compared to other powders giving similar velocities.

This system has been working for us for over 40 years.

any problems at all.We have never had

At $140 for 8 pounds, plus shipping,, plus $25 hazmat fee, smokeless powder is dammed expensive fertilizer.

I agree that people who do not know what they are doing or how to pick a starting load and work up, should dump it. But, if they are well experienced, mentally sharp, and understand what they are doing, as Saeed and his aides do, or dpcd, it is no danger to use.

For those people, throwing it away would not be a highly logical thing to do. That's why God gave us brains..,to think things through and do what is safe within each of OUR individual knowledge & capabilities.

quote:

Originally posted by 458PHCAPSTICK:
Both powders do look alike....sorry if anyone got butt hurt

Listen up, new chum . mixing and mis ID of powders isn't "slangy" new speech, you have the peril of death or serious injury for your own "i dont care, yolo" self.. and anyone you might also injure...

his advice is sound, get over your ego ..

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 458PHCAPSTICK:
I have pulled some bullets and kept the powder.
Some where Imr-3031 and some Imr-4064.I have them separated,but noticed the start/Max powder charge data iam using in the 45-70 are the same.

I could not find corroboration in the manuals and personally since the two powders have significantly different burning rates I feel there is something here that isn't quite right , no shoulder or not.
You're saying Max. charge????? Trap door, Mod 95 lever or modern high strength action? Each has different data.
To follow the advise to go ahead and use them just this once is rather wild.

Feed your ROSES. roger

Roger, in a a conversation I had some years ago with the chemical engineers at DuPont when they manufactured the whole IMR line from 3031 through 7828, I was told that every one of the IMR series powders has the SAME amount of energy in it for any given weight of it.

What differs is he rate at which the energy is released, which is determined primarily by grain size, perforation size and the amount of burning deterrent added during manufacture.

So, you can use more of a slow IMR powder than of a fast one to get more total energy pushing bullets because the powder chamber effectively enlarges as the bullet moves down the bore in ferontr of the more slowly burned powder. That keeps peak pressure down, even though there is more total energy released during the total burn. And the kinetic energy of bullets strike accelerated longer by larger amounts of slower burning IMR powder will be greater because of the energy put into the bullet by that additional powder over an extended period of time. Very simple physics.


According to what those guys told me, they saw no danger whatsoever in using an amount of powder appropriate to the fastest burning powder in an accidental IMR mix, as long as all the powders in the mix are all IMR powders.


Ergo, if one uses the smaller amount of a slow burning powder dictated by treating it as if it was a faster burning IMR series propellant, the pressure would be lower than normal because there is less powder burning than normal.

I can't swear they were right, and I still don't think some folks are capable of using mixes safely, but that is what they told me.