I am messing around with using H414 for 30-06 and 300 Win mag loads. One load I took to the range recently, 300 Win mag, 150 grain bullets, Tula LRM primers, 61, 63, 65 and 67 grains of H414 were all erratic and produced hangfires. They also had a poor loading density, about 67% to 74%. I am wondering if improving the load density will help matters. Many of you know that using cream of wheat to occupy the excess volume in a case is almost as old a trick as cartridge reloading. The references to the use of cream of wheat I remember are all with reduced loads and mostly cast bullets. I would like to try this method with full charge loads with jacketed bullets. Also, I would like to try the cream of wheat not only on the top of the powder charge but also under the powder charge next to the primer in which case I think the primer would shoot it's fire right through the COW and ignite the powder. The purpose of putting the COW on the bottom is to keep the fine grained H414 from infiltrating the space between the primer and the case which is a topic for another discussion I plan to start in a few days.

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They also had a poor loading density, about 67% to 74%

Stay away from those high density spherical powders that are too fast for the application.
Using fillers at high pressure in a bottle neck round is dangerous.

Your newbieness is very apparent by your thoughts about putting COW next to the primer.
No one and I mean no one has every had that thought before. Forget about COW.
If you want a partial/light charge of powder use an easily ignited extruded powder with an adequate primer.

BPCR shooters use a circle of newsprint paper to keep powder out of the flash hole. However they are working with a case full of black powder to keep the circle of paper in place.

I'm not sure putting the COW under the powder charge is a good idea. You may have a delayed ignition as the mass of COW absorbs some of the brisance and heat of the primer.
I have placed it on top of a charge with a separator of ESTES Model Rocket wadding.( does not burn)This has worked very well.
This wadding is very thin,as in tissue if you pull the layers apart. A single layer on the bottom of the case will prevent the migration of powder grains into the flash hole or primer cavity.
I have used this with other small grained powders to prevent the shock spike that can occur. I look forward to your post on 414.

If you use cream of wheat between the primer and powder, you will almost certainly get misfires or hangfires.

That is really something one needs to avoid.

Also, there are many powders that are more suitable for your purpose than loading H414 with such low density.

If you do wish to use fillers, then my recommendation is to use kapok - pillow filler - between the powder and bullet.

Good one, Tim! You had everyone going for a minute there. I usually save posts like yours for April Fools Day, but Halloween is also appropriate I suppose.

Please don't do the this.

If you use a granular inert filler, at all, it will blend with the powder causing erratic burn. Which could lead to an explosion, especially if you put in the base of the case. Forcing the powder forward, compressing it, then raising the temp to cause detonation rather than burn

The nitro express cases use dacron, or foam, or even eat plugs as fillers

Negatif Stone, no joke. The use of COW as a filler was common and well known in years past though I do admit, not next to the primer. Thinking up that little gem was not my best and brightest moment.

The reason I am doing this experiment is to find a way to use H414 in 300 Win mag. According to Hodgdon H414 is useful in 300 mag but that is contrary with my limited experience. I had hangfires. I have almost 20 pounds of H414 that I want to get rid of and a 300 mag is my best candidate rifle for burning up this powder which is why I want to come up with a load. I took a few rounds to the range this AM. You all are right, the COW on the bottom of the case caused a misfire, click, no bang. I had four of them prepared and only tried one. Bad idea but no harm done. The other four rounds with the COW on top of the H414 were a success. I anticipated adding 20 grains of COW so I substituted a 130 grain bullet for the 150 I had planned on using. Figuring that a 130 grain bullet plus 20 grains of COW might not behave exactly like a 150 grain bullet I also reduced my starting load from 67 grains of powder to 60 grains of H414. Good idea. I fired two rounds of 60 grains and two rounds of 62 grains, none hangfired, the primer shows evidence of acceptable high pressure but not dangerously high. No hard extraction. The powder will not mix with the COW because I loaded it to be lightly compressed preventing movement and the cartridges will not be subject to rough handling. I want to use the COW because it can be metered through a powder measure and is readily available. It does stink pretty bad though. Anyway, the odor notwithstanding I think I have enough success to load 20 rounds, I think I will stick with the 60 grain load or maybe drop back to 58 grains.

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Originally posted by Saeed:.....Also, there are many powders that are more suitable for your purpose than loading H414 with such low density.....

I firmly agree. It is a mystery to me why Hodgdon lists several loads for H414. All with a low loading density.

My 25th edition Hodgdon manual lists 71 grains of H414 as a maximum load in the 300 WM with a 150 grain bullet with a pressure of 49800 cup and a starting load of 65 grains.

A quick look at their website and they list 65 - 68 grains there. The pressure listed on the 68 grain load is 52000.

I wonder what has changed.

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Originally posted by PaulS:.......I wonder what has changed.

My Hodgdon #22 lists the same load but none of the Hodgdon sources I see list a primer type. That may be the difference. This is not the first time I have had problems with a load from a "reputable" source. The same Hodgdon manual recommends 90 grains of H870 behind a 150 grain bullet in 300 Win mag. Based on that info I bought a quantity of H870. Well, you can't get 90 grains of H870 in a 300 Win mag case, the most that can be crammed in is 88 grains and with a 150 grain bullet you get hangfires. I wound up using 200 grain bullets and the powder was compressed to an insane degree. H870 is really too slow for 300 Win mag bug Hodgdon listed several loads for it. I loaded some 357 and 44 magnum loads from the Speer number 8 manual circa 1970, the starting loads were so hot I considered them maximum loads. I have had other loads with questionable performance from "reputable" sources over the years. Just because a load is printed by a "reputable" source does not make it a good load though I think the quality of data has improved in the 40 years I have been doing this. I think the real reason some of this stuff was published was just to fill the pages of the book.

Where did you get your data? The loads appear to be extremely light for the 300 Win mag, and likely that is where the problem lies. Too little of a charge doesn`t allow pressure to build as it normally would and ball powders especially need pressure to burn properly.

According to the Nosler #7 manual they recommend 67gr - 71gr of H414 with a 150gr bullet in the 300 win mag for a load density of 85%-91%, a very acceptable fill IMHO.
Keep in mind the density is measured with a bullet seated, not how much it fills an empty case.

Tim,

Stay away from fillers as you are flirting with disaster IMO. There are better powder choices out there to suit your application. Fillers will increase the density of the load and can dramatically increase pressures often spontaneously. Your statement about fillers being used a lot in the past is a bit misleading…it is true that they were common in the 1960-70s and recommended by a number of writers but generally only for cast bullet (aka low pressure)loads. With the selection of powders out there and the vast amount of data you would be better served to avoid any filler. Plus it is extra work in the loading procedure.

Paul

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Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
Where did you get your data? The loads appear to be extremely light for the 300 Win mag, and likely that is where the problem lies......

Hodgdon's web site. 300 Win mag, 150 grain bullet, H414, 67 grains starting, 71 maximum, all hangfired.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Reed:
Tim,

Stay away from fillers as you are flirting with disaster IMO. There are better powder choices out there to suit your application. Fillers will increase the density of the load and can dramatically increase pressures often spontaneously. Your statement about fillers being used a lot in the past is a bit misleading…it is true that they were common in the 1960-70s and recommended by a number of writers but generally only for cast bullet (aka low pressure)loads. With the selection of powders out there and the vast amount of data you would be better served to avoid any filler. Plus it is extra work in the loading procedure.

Paul

How well I know there are better choices for 30-06 and 300 magnum than H414. In fact, the more I use H414 the more convinced I become that it is not good for anything. Too bad I got 20 pounds of it huh? I got the latest Hornady manual from Amazon a couple of days ago and paging through it I can find very few loads using H414. What's more I see most Hornady data is for extruded powders which seem to outnumber ball powders 3/1, 4/1 something like that. Ball powders vs extruded powders, that's a topic for another thread. According to Hodgdon H414 is good for almost everything and fabulous for 30-06. Then they would of course, they had tons and tons and tons of the stuff they needed to sell.

Like I said, I have almost 20 pounds of this H414 stuff and I hate to throw it away though I have read that nitrocellulose makes a dandy if expensive fertilizer for your lawn.

As far as adding a loading step, I planned to load this stuff on a Dillon press with two powder measures set up, one with H414, the other with the COW which is no big deal.

As far as increasing the pressure, that's the whole point of a filler, to increase the pressure and load density of a load.

I got started reloading 40 years ago and a lot of the material I learned from was dated even then, example, Phil Sharpe, Col. Hatcher and P.O. Ackley. Back in the day fillers were used extensively.

You can also use the loads that are listed for WW760. They are the same powder, made by St. Marks. See the Hod website and note the same loads and pressures listed for both powders.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
My 25th edition Hodgdon manual lists 71 grains of H414 as a maximum load in the 300 WM with a 150 grain bullet with a pressure of 49800 cup and a starting load of 65 grains.

A quick look at their website and they list 65 - 68 grains there. The pressure listed on the 68 grain load is 52000.

I wonder what has changed.

As far as I know, what has changed is the measuring device. The new method of measuring pressure is supposed to be more precise, also it returns higher pressure values. This is the best explanation I've found so far for why old data is hotter than old data. I wish I could cite a source on that one.

I know that was off topic, but I thouht I'd throw it out there.

Hodgdon Number 26 does list H414 with loads for the 300 Winchester Magnum with bullet from 110 grains to 180 grains.

I have no trouble remembering how the story went.

"IT must have been a double load, All I have ever feed this 257 Weatherby is a stead diet of reduced loads"

Then the pictures. The rifle was rendered scrap. I believe reduced loads are cute with cereal and toilet paper and wax.

I am not a fan of putting stuff between the powder and bullet that does not turn to gas when ignited.

F. Guffey

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You can also use the loads that are listed for WW760. They are the same powder, made by St. Marks. See the Hod website and note the same loads and pressures listed for both powders.

I've seen that myself, and have no reason to doubt it, but my own experience with 760 and H414 in 7-08, 7x57 and 30-06 has produced totally different results. Typically, 760 shines and H414 doesn't. Dunno if it's a case of different lots or what..

In any event, most of what I've read indicates that fillers seem to work better in straight-walled cases, and not so well in bottle-necked ones. I sure wouldn't do it.

Tim: IIRC, you started a thread a short time ago about experiencing misfires and hang-fires with certain primers. Now you are experiencing misfires and hang-fires with a particular powder.

This is unusual, to say the least, and as everyone here can tell you, misfires and hang-fires with modern components are very rare. I suspect that many here have never even experienced such; and in 50 years of handloading for about that many rifle calibers, plus a dozen more handgun calibers and shotgun gauges, fired in literally hundreds of different guns, I have only experienced misfires or hang-fires about as many times as can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

I think you can understand that this leads me to believe that there may be something about your loading methodology which is contributing to your unusually high rate of misfire/hangfire experience. Perhaps you might review your methods to see if there is something going on which is inadvertently causing your results. For instance, you might want to check to see if you are failing to adequately lubricate the primers before you seat them. Some people take the shortcut and simply spray them en masse with a can of WD-40 or the equivalent. It is slower but much better to hand lubricate each one individually as you seat it with a good moly grease. You'll find they go in much slicker and therefore will work more dependably.

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Originally posted by Suwannee Tim:

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
Where did you get your data? The loads appear to be extremely light for the 300 Win mag, and likely that is where the problem lies......

Hodgdon's web site. 300 Win mag, 150 grain bullet, H414, 67 grains starting, 71 maximum, all hangfired.

Did you load from 67gr through 71gr or start at 61 and stop at 67gr as you stated in your 1st post?

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Originally posted by Suwannee Tim:
I am messing around with using H414 for 30-06 and 300 Win mag loads. One load I took to the range recently, 300 Win mag, 150 grain bullets, Tula LRM primers, 61, 63, 65 and 67 grains of H414 were all erratic and produced hangfires. They also had a poor loading density, about 67% to 74%. .

I agree the 67gr load should not have been a problem but the lighter ones very well could. The starting loads with some powders are pretty well set as a lower limit. The powders need to have enough gas production at the onset to reliably keep the fire going and pressures rising. Too little powder can slow down the process.

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Originally posted by Stonecreek:.......For instance, you might want to check to see if you are failing to adequately lubricate the primers before you seat them. Some people take the shortcut and simply spray them en masse with a can of WD-40 or the equivalent. It is slower but much better to hand lubricate each one individually as you seat it with a good moly grease. You'll find they go in much slicker and therefore will work more dependably.

Well damn Stone I wisht I had a known that 40 years ago. Not lubing my primers you say? Would a grease gun work good? Do you know who makes a good primer lube die?

And yes, I have had more than my fair share of hangfires. I attribute this not to incorrect handloading techniques but to the Infinite Monkey Theorem. Given thousands and thousands of handloaders, a few will experience few or no hangfires in their career, that's you. A few will also experience an unusually large number of hangfires. That's me.

Anyway, thanks again for the primer lube advice. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that.

For the rest of you, thank you for your thoughts and advice, even the thoughts and advice I disagree with.

P.S. Stone, Thanks very much for sending me the the photo of yourself at work. I'm going to have it printed and framed and hang it in a prominent place:




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Tim: Sorry for the confusion, but that's my editor pictured. He added the reference to the moly grease as I usually just spit on them to make sure they don't squeak as they go in.

I suspected it wasn't you Stone. I knows you are a Texican and the monkey ain't wearing a cowboy hat or gaudy boots so he can't be a Texican.

quote:

For the rest of you, thank you for your thoughts and advice, even the thoughts and advice I disagree with.

"... lubing primers...????

Tim, as on your other hangfire thread, I will remind you that in the Tula world a "magnum" primer just means it has a harder cup, NOT that it prodices more or hotter flame. That is the Russian interpretation of magnum.

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Originally posted by wasbeeman:
"... lubing primers...????

Stonecreek was baiting me. Didn't work.

As I mentioned above I fired four rounds of 300 Win mag with COW filler, none hangfired and none showed any evidence of excess or inadequate pressure, just what I was looking for so I am declaring a limited success. Giving this thing some thought I am abandoning the use of COW for two reasons. First, COW contains gluten, a protein so named because of it's glue like properties. I am concerned the gluten will glue the COW into a lump which will obstruct the cartridge and not flow as it should, an obvious hazard. COW is also relatively dense, about 1500 g / liter. I have some other stuff, corn cob grits which I use for tumbling media. The corncob grits are almost entirely cellulose and largely if not completely devoid of substances which might glue the granules into a lump. Also, the corncob grits have a density of only 970 g / liter or about 65% that of COW. When used as a ballistic filler this is an obvious advantage. Anyhow, I plod along with this noble, perhaps insane experiment. I am going to try the corncob grits next week. I have a couple of other applications, 450 Bushmaster and 454 Cassull both of which are very sensitive to low loading density. When, if I ever get a 458 SOCOM barrel I may find an application there as well. Anyway, I appreciate your advice and prayers.

Oh, another thing, the COW really stinks when burned. Hopefully the corncob grits will smell a little better or at least stink a little less.

I want to disclose my final results on this experiment. I loaded some rounds, 300 Win mag, 150 grain bullet, H414 powder, charges ranging from 56 grains to 68 grains in 2 grain increments. I filled the remaining air space of the charged cases with corn cob grits to the middle of the neck. I began firing and had no pressure sign, no hard extraction, no problems except for several blown primers. My conclusion is that fillers such as cream of wheat and corn cob grits should not be used in bottleneck cases. I don't have a pressure gun so I have no idea what the pressures were but pressures were evidently erratic.

To repeat and summarize, bulk fillers should not be used to improve loading density of bottleneck cases.

Glad we have that cleared up.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
Glad we have that cleared up.

I posted what I hoped would be my last post on the matter for two reasons Tex, first, I was advised by Saeed and others that my experiments were ill advised and it turns out they were right. I wanted to acknowledge the fact that Saeed et al were correct. Second, I wanted to complete the record in case someone comes along considering doing what I did, to give them the benefit of my experience and perhaps save them some time and trouble. Now I can add a third reason, giving Tex and opportunity to make a snarky remark. With a little bit of luck and Tex's kind cooperation this will be my last last post in this thread.

Tim,
My advice would be to use the COW for breakfast with some milk over it, bananas optional and the corn cob in your tumbler and keep both out of your rifle cases.

Stepchild

Pufflon

Link

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
Tim,
My advice would be to use the COW for breakfast with some milk over it, bananas optional and the corn cob in your tumbler and keep both out of your rifle cases.

Stepchild

You might have chimed in eight months ago while this subject was under active discussion but now your advice is just a waste of bandwidth.

quote:

Originally posted by Greyghost:
Pufflon

Link

Thank you Grey.

This thread would be funny if it were not for the 50k plus pressures behind the COW.

Full disclosure: When I was 15 or so, I loaded up a "reduced" load of pistol powder and filler behind a 130 sp in a Ruger M77 270 Win. I fired exactly one. I thought it recoiled and sounded like my Dad's 30/338.

I had to use a dead blow hammer to open the bolt, the case looked like a "270 win mag", belt and all, with 50 BMG primer pocket.

I used data from an old Lyman manual. I substituted a cotton ball for the stated kapok filler.

I have never attempted to use reduced loads again.

If H414 is not useful in your application, trade it off or give it away, someone will find a safe use for it.

Best;

This may be one of the great threads of the century!