Newbee to pistol re-loading, Oldie at rifle reloading. What are the pressure/ignition differences between pistol primers and rifle primers? Can they be safely interchanged with a reduction or increase of powder? Hell, I've never even measured them are they the same diameters?

I think the first thing to do is look at the pressures at which pistols operate. Then compare that with the pressures at which modern rifles operate. This information leads me to think that substituting rifle primers for pistol primers, or conversely is not a real good idea.
Not saying you can't make the swap work. But I wouldn't recommend it at all!
In reloading safety comes first, right?

muck

Muck, I hear what you are saying about safety but telling a reloader to not experiment is like telling a Democrat to not spend tax payers money. I have dropped the firing pin on primed only cases. The "pop" is not nearly as significant as one from a 209 shot gun primer. I suppose this might also be a good test for pistol primers and vice versa. I was just hoping someone else might have saved me the trouble.

I`d get rifle primers. Not that hard to find.

quote:

Originally posted by muck:
I think the first thing to do is look at the pressures at which pistols operate. Then compare that with the pressures at which modern rifles operate. This information leads me to think that substituting rifle primers for pistol primers, or conversely is not a real good idea.
Not saying you can't make the swap work. But I wouldn't recommend it at all!
In reloading safety comes first, right?

muck

IU've often wondered at this, as cassul and 500 SW loads aint no 20K loads.. 45-60kpsi loads...

which leads me to thinkin...

which is NEVER a good thing

Not only pressure differences but primer wall thickness is thinner . Going to pierce a lot of primers !.

Look at the amount of powder in a rifle case as opposed too a pistol case HUGE difference !.

Insufficient primer ignition or super slowed ignition could spell BLOWN RIFLE !!!!!!!!.

Really want to take the chance ? , there's a reason they make different primers for different cases !.


It's just not worth experimenting with YOUR GUN or LIFE is it ?.

Pistols don't have enough striker force to reliably crush the priming compound between the anvil and the cup. As stated already the primer cups are thinner on pistol primers and the stronger rifle firing pns will pierce the pistol primer cup.

In fact I use small pistol primers to load my Hornet.Found they give me improved accuracy. Seems the hotter Sm Rifle primers tend to blow the bullet out of the tiny casework prematurely causing higher Std Deviation in pressure. Also give the necks light factory crimp to uniform pressure. Works.
Can't say I'd try it with much larger case tho.

quote:

often wondered at this, as cassul and 500 SW loads aint no 20K loads.. 45-60kpsi loads.

454 Casull is designed to use small rifle primers.

Large rifle and large pistol primers are the same diameter but the large rifle are about .008" taller, just enough difference to cause problems.

I had 3-4000 CCI LP primers and no longer had pistols and tried them in my 7x57 with cast loads. Many tests later I found no accuracy difference and only about 25fps difference between them and the Win LR primers I ordinarily use. Wouldn't like to think of them at normal pressures though.

Von Gruff.

Use the right primers for the round you are loading for. In general it's a very bad idea to substitute rifle for pistol primers and vice versa. Pistol primers in rifles will peirce because they are not thick enough to contain rifle pressures. Rifle primers in pistols will stick out too far, give inconsistant ignition, and cause excess pressures because of their higher brisance.

Rifle primers in the 454 Casull and 500 S&W as well as pistol primers in a low pressure round like the 22 Hornet are the exceptions that prove the rule..................................DJ

I pretty much follow the rules such as the right primers for the job, most of the time. Some months ago a friend of mine came over to load some 45 acps. Well, he knew the procedure so I did not pay that much attention to what he was doing. Light load, using 230 ball. After he had started I went into the room, he had about 25 or so loaded, when I noticed a empty box of CCI rifle primers next to the press! I stopped him immediately to investigate! Sure enough instead of large pistol--he had loaded large rifle!

So I got all the rifle primers out of the tube, scolded him just a little (it ain't like I never done anything stupid) and got him started back with large pistol primers. After he had loaded a few, my curiosity got the best of me! I took a hand full of the 45 acp Rifle primer loads, and a hand full of the large pistol primer loads to the range and the chrono. I used one of my 45s in case it did damage. What I found was about 10-15 fps difference!! Or basically no difference at all between the two!

I don't think I would want to try Fed 215s this way, but there was no harm done, and not any real difference. I shot the 25 or so he had loaded without any issues.

This does not prove much, and I really would not do it intentionally. But it is one case to add in the fray!

Michael

I am always suspicious of marketing schemes. I have often wondered if the primer market was in that category. Just by watching the few post here, the few people who admit to actually having experience in crossing primers have had no mishaps. I am not saying that we all should go and load a bunch of pistol primers in our rifle cases and vice versa, but it is good to know what, if anything, would occur if one was to do so. I think a simple test of loading rifle primers in EMPTY pistol cases and then firing them would be a good start. Years ago, when shotgun ignition on blackpowder rifles was starting out, we would test the difference between the 209 primers and the percussion caps by placing a U.S. quarter on top of the muzzle with the BP rifle held vertically in the air. The percussion caps would just barely make the quarter jump while the 209 primers would make the quarter hit the ceiling. Pressure is pressure. This was a simple and safe test and anyone who knows about modern black powder hunting knows the rest of the story.

I have never tried pistol primers in rifle cartridges because, as others have alluded to, I thought rifle pressures might be excessive for them.

I have, however, used rifle primers (even the CCI 250 Large Rifle Magnum) in a 44 Rem. Mag. Their use required me to lower my charge of H110/Win. 296 by 1.5 to 2 grains.

Not safe by any means--pistol primers have a thinner cup. That will mean big problems with the higher pressures.

I've gotten pressure swings enough to show signs in just switching from std to magnum primers.......................DJ

Hey Rae, Just read and reread each post. This is one thread where I agree with everything posted.

I've used Pistol Primers in Rifle cartridge "Down Loads" as a Safety Valve just in case the Load became Erratic. Most of the time it is easy to see with CHE/PRE, but having a Primer let go is normally an indicator of some kind of a Pressure Issue.

As some mentioned, the Pistol Primer Cups are not designed to hold the same amount of Pressure as a Rifle Primer. thinner and or softer depending on the manufacturer.

It would seem logical to think it would be OK to use Pistol Primers in anything that has Pressures at or below the MAX Pressure in a 357Mag or 44Mag. However, the Burn Duration is also shorter in Pistol/Revolver cartridges which means the Higher Pressure is not being held back as long as it is in a Rifle cartridge. So, that can be misleading.

When working with my old 22Hornets, Pistol Primers provided better accuracy than most Rifle Primers. And working with "some" Down Loads they can work to an advantage. But it is always best to stick with what the Manuals recommend, from a pure Safety standpoint.

Best of luck to you.

Large pistol primers are a slight bit shorter in the overall length. I used many of them in my 45-70 loads with no problems whatever. Small pistol and small rifle primers are the same length.

I've run pistol primers in rifle cases and rifle primers in pistol cases - IN SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS ONLY!

Case #1 - When fireforming cases w/o bullets. Load up Fed 150's + Unique + TP wad + COW filler + wax plug. Just did it this weekend to fireform some .375-338 cases. This method was indicated by Mr./Dr. Ken Howell.

Cae #2 - Loading up .357 Supermag and .445 Supermag in my T/C Contender. Rifle primers are indicated in many loading manuals.

I was going to post a thread just on this topic, Thanks!!

We have no Sm rifle primers available and I was wondering if a Sm pistol primer could be substituted for the .223 Remington with W748 and a 55gr V-Max.

In the Lyman Manual it says Federal 200 sm rifle primers can be used in magnum sm pistol loads. I am guessing it is safe to use a magnum sm pistol primer in a sm rifle load like a .223 Remington but maybe not.... .

It may be safe to use the rifle primer in a pistol, but not the pistol primer in a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I was going to post a thread just on this topic, Thanks!!

We have no Sm rifle primers available and I was wondering if a Sm pistol primer could be substituted for the .223 Remington with W748 and a 55gr V-Max.

In the Lyman Manual it says Federal 200 sm rifle primers can be used in magnum sm pistol loads. I am guessing it is safe to use a magnum sm pistol primer in a sm rifle load like a .223 Remington but maybe not.... .

It may be safe to use the rifle primer in a pistol, but not the pistol primer in a rifle.

I am using small pistol primers in my 223 loads now, based on availability... of course I am using downloaded powder charges...

the important thing is pressure... Small pistol primers have a thinner cup..and they can be pierced with higher pressure charbes.. I had one do so the other day...

using powder like W 748, I'd recommend backing off you max charge 2 or 3 grains and work back up if you feel the need to...

as for myself, I'd lower my charge weight 2 grains and feel that should compensate...

point of impact will probably be lower tho...so that will need adjustment..

Using small pistol primers in a 223 is a BAD IDEA.

Think about what might happen if you got the lighter cupped rounds accidentally in a AR-15 or other semi-automatic that occasionally taps the primer when loaded. Slam-fires ARE POSSIBLE.

Better safe than sorry. Small rifle primers are coming back into the supply system. I bought 3000 last week at normal prices, the most I paid was 32.80/1000...............................DJ

I'd like to know where you got the primers djpaintles.

I'm desperate

I believe you'll find that large rifle and large pistol primers have a slightly different depth when seated.

Small rifle and pistol primers seem to have a very similar depth when seated.

Have never substituted pistol for rifle primer applications. The thinner cup of a pistol primer would make it more sensitive to piercing due to high pressure.

I have, however, used a sh*t load of small rifle primers in pistol applications where the pressure will be high and the thicker cup is of real value ... mostly 9x21, Super, and 9x23 that will be fired in specially constructed handguns having fully supported (ramped) chambers. These loads are worked up with great care ... and even then it is not a "recommended" practice for the average reloader.

In general the recommendation for pistol primers in rifle cartridges has to be ... DON'T!!!!

(Happily, I still have plenty of primers as I've never felt comfortable without a backlog.)

always amazes me to watch someone talk themselves into psising on an electric fence....

Seafire's pzzzing on an electric fence?

i wasn't referring to seafire - more the whole idea itself, and it's not just on this topic, although it could be an excellent example.

a dozen loading books will tell a reloader not to do it, a hundred people on the interenet will tell someone not to do it, but if someone gets an idea into their head they will ignore all that and concentrate on the one or two accounts from people who got lucky (OR knew exactly what tehy were doing under controlled circumstances with a LOT of experience) and use this to rationoalize something dangerous.

is that happening here? time will tell....

Got it now.

The reason I was going to ask the question about the substitution was the unavailability of the SM rifle primer. I have a buddy also who told me that the SM Magnum pistol primer was the same as the SM rifle primer.

Thanks for the clarification

personally, i wouldn't do it, but then again, we're not having TOO much of a primer problem up here. i bought a thousand of them last month with no worries and could buy a thousand today if i needed them.

and your buddy could be right, but if it were me, i'd be asking him where he got that information from. even then, i would call or email the primer manufacturer. they are ALWAYS available to speak with people and ask quesitons and will give you the scoop straight from the horse's mouth.

i was testing some loads about 2 mounts ago.. i had bought some new blue box CCI350 primers. i already had some 250s. i picked up the wrong box and loaded some 350s in my .260 rem. when i shot the gun it sounded funny. when i opened the bolt, my firing pin had pocked a hole in the primer.