The WSM and SAUM Cartridges

Stick with what you know works. The trendy types will allways throw the latest marketing jiz in your face. The majority of stuff between .24 and and .45 rifle (IMHO) performs between 2400fps and 3100fps. The shape of the case may change the amount of powder used, but that's about it. So just relax and use what you love.

"Short, fat and sassy" description of new cartridges reminds me of an old girlfriend and the funny part of this story is she turned out to be very good in the sack.

Have a good one!!!

Optimistic reloading velocity data.

I don't care for any sort of advertising BS which attempts to claim that some new cartridge will make everything which came before totally obsolete.

On the good side, I do se where the manufacturers seem to be packaging rifles with suitable caliber choices in a more focused way. The initial release of the lightweight hunting rifles in the short magnum calibers does a good job of complimenting each portion of the package.

To me, the big bobble in the water is Winchester packaging the 223 WSSM in a light carry rifle and sponsering a gathering to show how well it works on deer. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. Oh well, maybe they already knew something that is just now getting some press. Namely, that the 223 WSSM is perhaps the barrel burner of all time and would trash a barrel in only one or two days of shooting at varmints. Under those circumstances it is easy to see where the Winchester guys would put their heads together and push the round towards a low volume arena.

I do have one wish. I really want a 6.5mm WSSM with a nice long neck on the brass. Not sure how they would market it but it sure would cover the bases real well. 107 Matchking for varmints. 123 Scenar for target shooting. 140 A-max for deer. 155 partition for bigger game. Set it up in lightweight hunting rifles with fast twist for the heavy bullets and set up varmint rifles to shoot the 123 and lighter bullets.

Though it seems to have died off a good bit in recent years, I would have to say the .280 Rem hype annoys me a good bit. Before I get started, I have to admit I'm a huge .280 fan. I just see more illogical/rationalizations/biased comparisons as to why the .280 is better than this round or that round (usually .270/06) than any other cartridge. People really do love their underdogs...

All that being said, being a gun nut, I usually enjoy those type of arguments

-Lou

I have been only slightly annoyed with reading the 22-250 is good to 400 yards, but the .223 is only good to 275.

My problem with that is that the 22-250 slows down to .223 velocities in 75 yards.

The numbers don't add up.

For me it's people that make remarks like "don't like the Weatherby shoulder" without giving valid reasons why. If you got a bitch then give the reason and supporting data. Lawdog

I could care less about all the hype of the RUM and the SAUM/WSM catridges. I am not close minded, they just don't appeal to me in any way.

Aggiedog,
Try this for a real world wakeup call, no bridges just fact...

A 175 gr. 7 mag at 2900 FPS or a 180 gr. 30-06 at 2800 FPS, now tell me the 7 mag is all that much more and if you hand load the 7 mag to 3000 FPS, then I'm gonna give you that 200 FPS as opposed to shooting Enhanced Federals in the 06 at 2900 FPS plus, and state that 200 FPS and 5 grains less bullet is zilch in killing power on game....

I'll have to go one step further and state that there isn't much difference in any of these calibers from 7-08, 308, 30-06, 270 to 7 magnum and very little more when you go to the 300's....But of course that is only my opine on the subject! but given a proper heart/lung shot one will kill as well as the other.

I'd have to vote for the Hype they give the "new" 45/70 cast ammo.

I don't mind the hype, it's just marketing. What I really like about the new(er) developments is all the research and development in terms of newer powders, better bullets. Because of the newer cartridges we have newer rifles and newer scopes, not a bad thing. If we didn't have these newer developments we'd all be shooting 30-06's with 4X scopes. And when you think about it, it's no different than wildcatting. Do we need it? Of course not but the wildcatting hobby is fun and gives pleasure for an awful lot of shooters. As Ray pointed out there is not a lot of difference between the cartridges he mentions but what it does give us is variety so that we can make our own choices for our own reasons.

I guess what bugs me the most is the failure of some companies to give credit for what went before. A few examples

6mm Remington - Very much the same as the much earlier 6x57 Mauser

.280 Remington - 7x64 Brenneke, except the .280 was about 70 years later

7 m/m Rem Mag- .275 H&H, except the 7 m/m Rem was about 50 years later

.284 Win - Identical for all practical purposes to the 7.5x55 Suisse case, except 70+ years later and necked down to .284"

.338 Win - try the .330 BSA, except the BSA came out in 1920

.22 Hornet - the .22 WCF by any other name, 40 years later

.225 Winchester - Anybody ever hear of the .219 Improved Zipper which came out in the late 30's?
Reduce the rim diameter to match the '06 bolt face and you've got the .225...

.280 Halgar/.280 Kynoch - pre-war and post-war copies of the .280 Ross

,500 Jeffrey - look up the dimensions of the 12.7 m/m Schuler sometime

.30 M-1 Carbine - Anybody ever hear of the .32 Win Self-Loading?

The list goes on almost forever.

I like 'em all, but fair is fair. A little historical credit where credit is due would be nice.

AC

[ 06-28-2003, 03:50: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

It really dose not matter what your bullet launcher is these days. You take any reasonable weight bullet, from Hornaday, Nosler Speer TBBC, Swift A Frame, Failsafes, Northfork Barnes Woodleigh and a bunch more. Launch it from 2,400 to 3000 fps and place said bullet were its suppose to go, and write a check for the trophy fee. I could take a 7 x 57 load it with 175 gr Nosler Partitions, launch them at 2400 to 2500 fps. And go shoot just about every thing I can afford to shoot. Its the bullet, not the launcher.

Anything to do with the Chev 1/2 ton of cartridges, the do all but does nothing real good cartridge, the famous 30-06.

I hate it when I read a gun mag review of some new, just gotta have product, or the return of something old that's been discontinued, that's been hyped to the hilt as the greatest since sliced bread, and I'm all wound up into a lather chomping at the bit to buy it, but nobody's got any for sale! Case in point:

Sig trailside semiauto pistol.

Winchester 1895 in 405 Win caliber.

I had a deposit on both with two different dealers for more than a year when I finally gave up waiting and said, "screw you." (Not the dealers, the manufacturers.)
And the gun writers are just as much to blame for not telling their readers that the one they have in their hot little hands is the only one in existence and the production line isn't even up and running yet. They're all in a big rush to claim the first product review...hype, hype hype.

This goes for the new gunpowders and accubond type bullets. It's a crime, or should be, to advertize it for sale and not have any product to actually sell. I'm not talking about not enough to go around, I'm talking none to go around. Now I do realize that there is a certain lead time in publishing a monthly magazine but still not having the product on the store shelves more than one year later is unacceptable.

I just wish as part of their "marketing" information Winchester and Remington included a little barrel life info on their magnums.

wpm-Barrel life is so dependant on the shooter that accurate information would not be possible.Some people regularly overheat barrels while others are very careful in this reguard.Some people know how to clean a barrel without causing damage while some have no clue and can ruin a barrel by improper cleaning in short order.

None of the hype annoys me. Whatever their motivation, exuberant claims for products is to be expected from ad merchants in any industry. I'm just pleased as punch that manufacturers of firearms, ammunition and reloading equipment are alive and well, and continuing to crank out new stuff and old/reliable stuff.

Hi guys,

At first I was a little annoyed with the hype of the new wsm/saum cart, but after thinking it over, I came to a different conclusion. I think we should welcome the new offerings, after all, how many really different things can they really come up with? The existing callibers already only vary by a few thou. Think they should adjust the size of the bullet to say, split the difference between a .223 and .243? All hail the wonderous new .235 wizz-bang ultimate caliber! Or would you rather they didn't try the short, fat route and instead invent a new cartridge with a case capacity between a .300 savage and a .308? Give them a break.
I think with present technology it would be really hard to come up with something truely unique.
Having said that, the hype is rediculous and the only people fooled by it are the inexperienced and those that willingly allowed themselves to be.(sometimes you need some help convincing the better half why you need that new rifle!)

I still like having more choices though.

Joe

No problems with cartridge hype. Though most of the folks I know who "bite" on it are the worst shooters....

Myself, I'm a cheap bastard. I shoot .308 Win, because that's what my "hacksaw sporterized" Ishapore Enfield shoots.

I shoot .22 lr through my "free" scoped Marlin 39A "Golden Eagle" which I found after a farm sale.

I shoot 7.62 x 25mm Tokarev through my $100 CZ52 pistol.

And I shoot 20 gauge "whatever" through my Stevens single-shot duct-tape custom shotgun.

And still, I get a lot of game during hunting season. I must be doing something seriously wrong.

The WSM concept is a good one, and as ballistically proven, you CAN get something for nothing with short fat cartridges. The fact though is that the improvement you get is no big deal. You don't get full length numbers, BUT the numbers aren't as far behind as they should be. The shorty design really does work better. Heck the PPC cartridges have been doing this for almost 30 years. Is it a reason to tank your rifles with belts? Hell no.

While there are good reasons for any cartridge's introduction, some of those reasons are rather obscure, and some are simply minutiae. Case in point, the 9mm Federal.

It's gone too far though when long action guns like the Browning BAR are being chambered in the WSM series. That's utterly pointless and purposeless. It's all marketing, however that is unfortunately about the only thing to drive a mature industry, as this one is. In the end, anything that drives our industry is something to embrace........with a whince if needed.

Gabe

Every single cartridge out there has been subjected to marketing hype. C'mon guys. It's one of the things America does best.
To paraphrase Bush, "It has never been more American to shop!"
Watch tv some time, if you don't, and find a commercial that has no hype, and you're probably watching an ad for a non-profit get-out-of-debt organization, helping people who've spent too much on their credit cards!!
The folks that respect quality and customer service are NOT the ones keeping industry going, gun or otherwise. Those folks already have their rifle and load and are out bagging dinner! It's folks with too much money in their pockets and not enough warmth in their house, desperately grasping for the newest sense-stimulae. The market has been so thoroughly explored that we'll see stranger and stranger attempts at the ultimate mousetrap. There's nothing stimulating about the 30-06, though it will forever be among the greats (right under the 280, Lou270 ).
Big business demands that Brand X distract you away from any supposed positive features of Brand Y. Remington brought out the RUM because everyone was buying the Win Mags. Winchester countered with the WSM. And you better believe they'll both do everything they can to "explain" how you NEED their's and the other guy's is just not going to cut it. Add to that the fact that less and less a percentage of the population is actually hunting, and you see selling points are more "factual" than actual.
It repeatedly amazes me that we allow companies to assault our sensibilities with insults to our intelligence, and as far as their accountants can tell them, it works!
Whose fault is it?
{The worst part is that it is often a viable product, but the manufacturer knows not to trust their rent check on the general public's ability to figure that out.)
I leave you with this:
"The new Triple-Shock X� three-ringed bullet provides significantly greater velocities, lower pressures and less fouling, without requiring an external coating. The bullet delivers a triple impact-one when it first strikes game, another as the bullet begins opening, and a third devastating impact when the specially engineered cavity fully expands to deliver extra shock with maximum transferred energy."