Hi all

A quick question, what cartridge hype annoys you the most?

Mine is the 22-250, all the crap I've heard about the 22-250 being the ultimate long range super duper dinosaur slayer just flat out annoys me, it's still a 224 no matter how fast it can get the bullet to move.

Personally, give me a good 243 or a 257, especially 243Win, 25-06Rem or 270Win.

My thoughts on 224 cartridges is to lean towards the 222Rem or 223Rem.

Stay Safe
JohnC

Those that hype the mega-big bores as the "only" thing suitable for game like buffalo and that if you can't handle the recoil just keep hunting plainsgame and leave the big stuff to the "real" riflemen.

aussie john,

Perhaps the reason the .22-250 is bragged on so much is that those who have had one were very satisfied with them. In answer to your question, I would have to say the garbage put out that if it isn't the lastest magnum, it is no good. Bless those who love magnums. I was one of their number for awhile. I'll admit that there are times, places and situations in which the magnums are the way to go, but not everytime. Have a good one. OH! by the way, I agree, the .222 Rem is a heck of a cartridge.

I don't know if I'd say annoy, but nothing bores me more then the new crop of WSM/RUM magnums ( or whatever the hell you call them) Just a cheap marketing ploy.

I'm really finding myself much more interested in the so called "obsolete" cartridges, .348 Win., 25-20, 38-55, etc. Also the old Sharps ( and lever ) cartridges like 45/70-45/110 and 50-110, etc.

Iv'e been using the high velocity stuff for so long that these new ones just seem like the same old same old, sure to induce a yawn.

John Its nice that you used the word "hype" as there are few flies on ANY cartridge as I see it and they all have their own story to be told. It is the people who envelope hype around certian cartridges, and so badly want to *believe*. New cartridges attract new shooters, you will see the two on these boards in a high corrolation. By "new" I also mean shooters who "have been shooting for decades"... one box at a time, and are generaly pissed off people who have little experiance but "decades of shooting".Many of these "decade" shooters are frustrated because they are not sure if the deer shot by their 7mag in 1972 droped faster than the one shot on a video at Rons Guns yesterday by a winchesterultrashortsupermagnumoftheweek. What isnt new, is ballistics, of the *new* cartridges, or the fact that deer and elk can and do travel about the same distance after being hit with cartridges ranging from .277-.375 even at *new* velocities. Of course you couldnt convince them of that, what would they have to believe in?

[ 06-16-2003, 12:29: Message edited by: smallfry ]

I don't know if I would say hype, But what annoys me is where people are very close minded to new cartridges, and think everyone should shoot what they shoot which has to be in production for at least 40 years. I figured the gun community would openly embrace new offereings to give them more options.

Mine is all the guy's out there that have magnumitus. They all seem to think the bigger the better well thats just total BS. I do admit magnum calibers have a use but not for eveything that is hunted. Besides most of them are not that much better than their non magnum counterparts. But I guess to each thier own. I have just seen to many of these guy's that have RUM's and the like that just have them because of the macho thing. I just don't think you need a magnum to hunt whitetail. This is just one man's opinion and I could be wrong.

[ 06-16-2003, 18:36: Message edited by: Handloader ]

The 270Win Hype, because one gunwriter hyped it 50 years ago it achieved legendary super powers. For some reason the .277 diameter bullet shoots flatter, hits harder and kills better than any .280, .264 or 7mm.

Leftoverdj: I have to disagree with you somewhat on the "no good new cartridges" view you state. I have just been thrilled with recent developments like the 22 Remington Bench Rest, 6mm Remington Bench Rest, 260 Remington, 7mm/08, 280 Remington and 17 HMR! Fantastic and accurate cartridges each of these.
To each their own but these rounds really perform for me!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

What cartridge hype annoys me? Most of it... because it's salesmanship, and easy for professional range fatties to talk glowingly about free rifles and free ammo.

My hunting is varied enough for me to make good use of any rifle of any caliber you want to give me, from an .11 Pygmy to 1.55 Whalethumper, but if I'm buying, it's a whole different story.

Good, I want those too. Duplicates are ok with me. I like new things. I like old things. I guess I am just a gun nut.

One of the gun hacks writing about the .300 WSM actually made the comment that if you already had a .300 Win. mag. or .300 Wby., you really did not need the .300 WSM.Total honesty for a change. he did say that if you were new to shooting and wanted a magnum, the .300 WSM would be a good one to start with. More honesty. (Wonder if he still has his job?)
I think that what really gripes my gut more than anything else though, is John Q. Gunwriter telling me that the newest rifle from Winington or Remcherster is the most accurate rifle ever made and how he got .2" groups at ten thousand yards with the thing. So, I dutifully run out, but this latest wonder gun and guess what? Nowhere near .2" groups with 2.5" being more like it. Complain to the gun rag and of course, old J.Q. has much more experience wringing accuracy from a rifle than I'll ever have. Considering I was shooting long before any of those jackasses were twinkles in their daddy's eyes, I don't think so. As my gun rag subscription run out, they're not getting renewed. I'll be damned if I'll subsidize infomercial that I have no interest in reading.
Paul B.

The over rated short super mags. It is a good concept(big case/short powder column)in a varmint rig, but throw it in a short barreled hunting rifle and the point becomes moot. I believe it is aimed at the wrong customer.

The only new cartridge family I like(as of late)is the RUM series, and only in .338, or larger. It filled the gap between the Winchester and the Lapua.

It is a little off the subject, but I for one have never been inconvenienced by the extra length of a magnum action either.

packrat

RUMs and WSMs. No redeeming social value. jorge

This .300 whisper - what is it good for?
When I am not allowed to use a silencer, it does not whisper.
I should have gone for a 7,62x39.

The 270 and 30-06 are made up to mythical standings by some people.A long history does not make them perform any better.

Easy there Stubble, think we are the minority in here

i guess, in a free enterprise system, we have to put up with stuff like ultra/short/supershort magnums(and that God awful rem 710) or whatever else the marketing section dreams up to call them. i actually like that they are finally getting away from the whole "belted" thing, except where it serves a purpose(458 win, 375 H&H, etc). but i think that money would be better spent improving the existing rifles. mainly, better QC but also maybe replacing some pot metal with real steel, better bedding, better stock design, and engineering a new trigger for rem guns that is less likely to "surprise" a guy. sadly, none of the gun companies have called me and asked me how they should run the business cheers...bud

I hate the anti short-magnum, ant-RUM, anti-anything new hype. I think some people feel that they are demonstrating a superior knowledge of firearms by stating that short magnums and RUMS have no place. Give me a break folks! If I'm in the market for a particular caliber you can bet your reloading press I'm going to give the new and improved a shot. How blind or ignorant can you be, shooting down any cartridge that's not 50 years old? And come on guys, don't you get bored shooting the vanilla 30'06 and 270s. I doubt you're coming up with any new loads for these two cartridges. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the old cartridges. I shoot the ones I have. By why the hell would you spend your money on a new one when there are so many more interesting cartridges available. Or maybe these anti new cartrige folks are just newbies who haven't got bored with the old cartridges yet.

Paul B, I couldn't agree more about john q gunwriter.

I know I'll probably get something started.... but my biggest gripe is anything that has the name Weatherby on it.

What really annoys me is the hype about the WSM "shorter powder column, more efficient powder burn..." thing.

Well...I guess that if one wants to believe "that" hype, then it all means that the .300WSM kills deader than the .300WM.

OK, let's have some fun, my gripe are people who profess to be American patriots, belittle three quarters of America, then run all over these boards bragging about their European cheepie rifles they can get at Wally World real cheap, or Billy Bob's Gas Station.

Guys, I may be wrong. But I haven't read any gunwriters telling us we have to have these new rounds. They just do what they have always done. When something new, comes out, they test it. Then give the results. Then you make your own decisions based on that. They give velocity, accuracy and a few loads. I read Rifle, American Rifleman, and handloader. Recently the Petersons Rifle mag. I figured they would think the shooting communty was smart enough to make thier own assumptions. What do you want them to do? Write about the 300Win Mag? They wrote there selfs silly about it in the last 40 years. Write more about the 270Win. Damn, I would hate to know how many words have been put down for that round. Don't ya get tired of reading about the same caliber?

bigcountry -- You said it well. I have never found a chambering I didn't like, you can make a case for them all, with a particular purpose in mind. They have all been hyped. Imagine if you will "the first article ever written about the 30-06". The old timers were saying "the 30-30 was good enough for grandpa, and it is good enough for me". Remember, they all had to start somewhere. With todays improved advertising skills plus the internet, gun shows, magazines, T.V. etc, we all get the information instantly. This sometimes can be intimidating. Good shooting.

Let me, if you would be so kind, take just a little different direction here. To me its not the new cartridges we should be admiring but the availability of new POWDERS and quality BULLETS!!!
As to cartridges--I like the 260 or the 6.5/08 Ackley version, but ONLY as special purpose cartridges. I don't like the SHORT necks of any of the .308 based cartridges. Do I have any 260's or 6.5/08s--yes! one of each. A Savage 10FP in 260 and a Rem 788 rebarreled to a 6.5/08 AI. The Savage is restocked with laminated wood and set up for long range targets with 140/142 Sierra Match Kings. The 788 has a PacNor #5 contour with a 1 in 11" twist. Set up as a long range varminter and the occasional deer/antelope up to 350yds. The 1 in 11 twist allows me only bullets up to 100grs and thats what I designed it for. For all purpose use, I prefer the 6.5 Swede, I have 3. I also have a '03 Springfield custom chambered for the 6.5/06. They all do the job thats needed. With the new powders I can achieve velocities with the 260 and 6.5/08 AI that I was obtaining with the 6.5/06 but using less powder. The 6.5 Swede or its AI version will also give similiar velocities when loaded to the same pressures as the 6.5/06. In all these cartridges, it was the ACTION which determined the cartridge used. The '03 deserved the 6.5/06, VZ-24 and CZ-550 for the 6.5x55 and the 788 and 10FP were ideal for the 260 and 6.5/08 Improved. Just my thoughts/choices for the cartridges but its the POWDER/BULLETS that make them all work and work well they do.

Ol' John

[ 06-17-2003, 21:35: Message edited by: HondoJohn6508 ]

I think the 400 H&H is stupid because it duplicates the 404 jeffery, the 416 remington, the 416 rigby, the 416 taylor and the 416 weatherby.

All we need is one more cartridge for which ammo is impossible to find.

I think the 22-250 is a fine round for what it was designed for, varmints, and it has proven itself and become very popular...I personally choose the 222 myself and sometimes my 6x45, which I also use on deer and antelope from time to time. I used the 22-250 quit a lot at one time and found it satisfactory, and deadly on coyotes and deer...Culled a bit with a borrowed one in Africa and it suited me.

In my opine, anyone who knocks the 270, or 30-06 is just running their head, making internet nonsence, and give me the impression that they have not used either cartridge and they are expounding on a subject they have had little or no hands on experience with either, since both cartridges have proven themselves many times over the years, and set a standard by which all others have been judged by...

I don't use the .270 or 30-06 much anymore but did for years, and still have my old 06..I quit because they bored me with perfect results..

As to comparing them with a 280 or 7 MM Rem mag, they are equal in every way on my chronograph, and in the field, with the 7 mag sucking hind tit, by a little.

Yea, verily, some cartridge hype annoyeth me to no end. It is weariness and vexation of soul...

The .260 Rem is a fine low-recoil varmint/antelope/deer/hog round that needs no hype. Big Green's initial lame attempt to show it as superior to the .270 was Madison Avenue bovine excrement at its odiforous finest. Remember those awful advertisements? They assumed a level of ballistic ignorance that is insulting.

The comparisons between the new short mags and the classic .300 Winnie and 7 Remmy leave the same smelly pile when they imply you get something for nothing. No gun company has yet figured out how to violate the laws of physics. The WSM's and SAUM's are great cartridges in their own right, but they aren't magic.

If the powder capacity of one cartridge is less than another, all else being equal you will get reduced velocities in the one if the pressure in both is the same. The only way to get equal velocities (with the same bullet) from 2 cartridges when one case holds less powder is to change some aspect of the comparison - higher pressure, different barrel length, different throat configuration, etc. Again, there is no magic.

BigIron

Any time someone says my caliber is better than yours. Remember when Clinton said "it depends on your definition of "is" is, what the hell does better mean. I have my grandfathers 25-20 that I love. The solor system does not rotate around the 270 Win, but it is a great round. The new rounds are "nice", but I just don't have to have them.

My main gripe is we're producing rifles chambered for cartridges for which the animals do not exist. Most of us are not likely to encounter the big bears in our hunts. I take moose in Canada with my 6.5x55 , and it does the job nicely. I don't think an elk will survive my 7mmRem. Mag. unless I hit it badly. Caribou and deer aren't that hard to kill. Why in hell would I need or want anything larger or more potent? I simply can't see it unless we have some deep desire to become spastic cripples, and I doubt that. I see guys at the range shooting horrendous groups with these canon because it's simply too much gun to shoot accurately for most shooters. I'm not trying to stir up a hornet's nest here, but the logic escapes me. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Starting out with the 06 at age 11, I can tell you one thing, it aint no 7 mag, nor will it ever be. Ray I love you baby, but dont sell me that bridge.

Handloader:

My Hype "pet peve": Magnumitis!!

Can't agree with you more! Got a kick the other day, listening to two women talking. One asked the other what did she expect her husband to get her for her birthday. Her response had me laughing so hard. " Honey, I got you a new Winchester 400 Magnum to replace the Winchester 300 MAGNUM I got you for Christmas."

My other " pet peve" is all the hype on the 17 HRM. I own a Ruger, and a New England Arms one, as well as a Marlin. The cartridge is all it is touted to be, however, it sure would be nice to be able to get some friggin ammo for it somewhere easily and secondly, at a price that is not double of what I can handload a 223 for!!

I dont have an issue with any of the new cartridges being developed nor the new rifles. In fact I really like the looks of the Remington 673 guide gun. I like the idea of a 300 wsm. I dont own either and am not really likely to.

The only thing about the new guns or new cartridges that bother me is the concept of the arrow being more important than the indian.

Take any whitetail deer in America and put a 100 grain or larger bullet thru both lungs and see how many are not harvested. Not many.

Who cares whether the bullet is launched from a .243 a .260 or a .300 WSM or a .338 or a .375?

The deer dont.

I would be much more impressed with a new gun or new cartridge that came out with the marketing approach of "Hey everybody, this .264 WhizBang is guarantied to be a 1 MOA shooter out of the box." And then live up to the claim. The supposition then would be we need to help the shooter insure that the bullet goes to where the bullet would do the most efficient work.

That would impress me.

Jim

Actually I find the 260, 7-08 and even the WSM's to be rather refreshing. At least its not the same old MORE POWDER, MORE POWDER hysteria, just something a little different. It occurs to me that maybe MORE POWDER hysteria has finally reached critical mass (ie;getting REALLY stupid) and the WSMs are just an attempt to move in another direction.

Recently an aquaintance who shoots a 7mm mag was talked into getting a 300 mag because he has intentions of going elk hunting this year and was told that it (the 7mm) might not be enough. That conversation either consisted of one asshole and a sucker or two fools.

What kind of hype bugs me? the "it isnt enough, you need more" hype. Sometimes a bit more power is prudent, but more often than not its just BS deeply rooted in personal bias.

Fat women will never be appealing and STWs and Ultra mags will never be well proportioned.

For me, it would have to be without a doubt all this jazz about belts. This day and age, there is only two cartridges that actually need them, but that doesn't mean that any cartridge with one is suddenly obsolete. For most, it is easy enough to headspace off the shoulder and for-go the belt, thus improving accuracy and case life.
I am also still warming up to the whole Short Mag thing, and doubt if I will ever embrace the WSSMs as I feel that they may be a little overboard, perhaps a good thing taken too far, nearly to the point of absurdity.

That's not to say ya'll can't have em if you want them.

Forgoing the belts on cartridges would be a good one. You are right, they arent needed except on cartidges that dont have much angle between the main cartidge body and neck. OK, I like some of the mags, but really not the cannons. I just like fast bullets. Art, you are right, there isnt much difference in the 06 and 7 mag, but I like that extra velocity I can get with the 140 to 160 grain loads in the 7 mag. Probably just got bored with the 06 also. It is a great cartridge, and a classic.

Imagine re-doing current mags without the belt. Now that really would confuse the issue. I saw a 223 WSSM today. I'm going to have to just pass on that one I think.

"The new Winchester Super Short Magnum (WSSM) will rewrite the books on short action, high velocity, precision accuracy, small calibers with magnum performance!"

The above is from the 2003 Winchester ammunition brochure.

Now Babe Ruth is quoted as saying "It ain't bragging if you can do it" but if I were in Winchester manufacturing I would be under a lot of pressure to back up that "hype" above.

I am all for new things. New things are interesting and promote the shooting sports. I also rever the old things that we have. I have two WSM's already and they are good cartridges and fun. I am not kidding myself about them. I just enjoy shooting and loading them.