The European CIP with higher firearms inspection standards than the U.S. has a max chamber pressure of 57,000 psi which is approximately 55,000 psi using SAAMI pressure taking methods.

The real question is who of you wants to load to 60,000 psi with American made cases made for a much lower pressure?

Below is a factory loaded once fired Winchester .303 British case that was fired in a military Enfield rifle with the headspace set within SAAMI limits. This case is not designed to military standards and stretched .009 on it first firing.

Bottom line the European CIP set the maximum chamber at 55,000 psi. And American commercial cartridge cases are not designed for that much chamber pressure. So the weakest link isn't the rifle but the American made cases we use to reload with. So if you want to load hot you better use European made cases with the hardest Rockwell rating like Lapua.

quote:

Originally posted by bigrdp51:
The European CIP with higher firearms inspection standards than the U.S. has a max chamber pressure of 57,000 psi which is approximately 55,000 psi using SAAMI pressure taking methods.

The real question is who of you wants to load to 60,000 psi with American made cases made for a much lower pressure?

Below is a factory loaded once fired Winchester .303 British case that was fired in a military Enfield rifle with the headspace set within SAAMI limits. This case is not designed to military standards and stretched .009 on it first firing.

Bottom line the European CIP set the maximum chamber at 55,000 psi. And American commercial cartridge cases are not designed for that much chamber pressure. So the weakest link isn't the rifle but the American made cases we use to reload with. So if you want to load hot you better use European made cases with the hardest Rockwell rating like Lapua.

Years ago I picked up about 1000 once fired Lake City 30-06 GI brass when I was in the CMP. It was free for the scooping up from the ground. I shorten them & form my 8X57 cases from those.

No signs of impending incipient case head separation after several 60K loads. Besides, I think that's more a result of excess resizing rather that case design. I doubt that American manufacturers keep different case head forming dies for the various .473 head cartridges. Why would they go to that unnecessary added expense?

wildcat junkie

Military cases are made Ford Truck Tough and are either thicker or harder than commercial cases. As I was trying to show with the winchester case above, and the vary reason you could shoot hotter loads in your LC 8mm cases.

And added expense comes from making quality cases able to withstand higher pressures. Example Lake City 5.56 cases are harder and stronger than any commercial .223 cartridge case. "BUT" Lapua .223 cases are just slightly softer than Lake City abd very tough cases and Federal .223 cases come in last place being the softest.

Bottom line American ammunition manufactures are not going to make their 8mm cases as hard and to the same quality standards as Lake City or Lapua when our 8mm ammunition is only rated for 35,000 psi.

Part of the M16 jamming problems was found to be soft brass during the Congressional hearings.



So you were able to load your 8mm hotter because you were using the highest quality brass made to withstand higher pressures.

And you will not find a American commercial 8mm case made to the oridgnal military specifications.

Example below, both cases below were fired in the same Enfield rifle that the Winchester case was above. The Prvi Partizan case is .010 thicker in the base, its base is larger in diameter and it has thicker rims. Bottom line, neither of these European cases stretched and thinned in the base web area when fired the first time. And I have gotten over 32 reloadings out of the Prvi cases and they only die of split necks.



Therefore the European CIP sets higher pressure standards for the 8x57 and higher standards for the cases being used in them.

After messing with two modern actioned 8x57's for a few years, I don't feel a need to run to an estimated 60k. Holding around an estimated 48k- 52k has worked out fairly well accuracy and velocity wise. The estimated hottest load below is the cfe223 175grain Sierra load.
Favorite loads are with the 175,with the now defunct IMR 4007, and Pro 2000MR (not listed below). Both run about the upper side of 2600 ft/sec. Here's some for comparison.

Comparisons
Messing with Quickload. Here's some comparisons with actual data from confirmed loads.

Remington M700 Classic

Cartridge: 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet: .323, 170, Hornady RN 3235
Useable Case Capaci: 58.965 grain H2O = 3.829 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.897 inch = 73.58 mm
Barrel Length: 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder: IMR 3031

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
89 45.00 2577 2507 40837 99.8%

170gr Hornady RN, IMR-3031, 2.897 OAL, CCI-200 Primer, PPU Case.
45gr 2508fps .71"


Cartridge: 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet: .323, 170, Hornady RN 3235
Useable Case Capaci: 58.305 grain H2O = 3.786 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.865 inch = 72.77 mm
Barrel Length: 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder: IMR 4064

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
95 48.00 2580 2514 44782 95.8%

170gr Hornandy RN, IMR4064, CCI 200 Primer, OAL 2.86, PPU case.
48gr 2541fps .81"



Cartridge : 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet : .323, 175, Sierra SP 2410
Useable Case Capaci: 57.211 grain H2O = 3.715 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.070 inch = 77.98 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : IMR 4007 SSC

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
97% 52.00 2645 2718 48722 92.5%
99% 53.00 2697 2827 51769 93.3%

175gr Sierra, IMR4007SSC, 3.07 OAL, WLR Primer, Win Case.
52gr 2619fps .82"
53gr 2670fps .63"



Cartridge : 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet : .323, 200, Nosler PART SP 35277
Useable Case Capaci: 54.310 grain H2O = 3.526 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.050 inch = 77.47 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : IMR 4064

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
95% 45.00 2468 2704 48273 98.4%

200gr Parts, IMR4064, 3.05 OAL, WLR Primer, Win case.
45gr 2428fps .61"



Cartridge : 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet : .323, 175, Sierra SP 2410
Useable Case Capaci: 57.211 grain H2O = 3.715 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.070 inch = 77.98 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
93% 54.5 2838 3130 54836 99.2%

175gr Sierra, CFE223, 3.07 OAL, WLR Primer, Win Case.

54.5gr 2828fps 1.13"


Cartridge : 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet : .323, 160, Barnes 'TTSX' BT 32362
Useable Case Capaci: 53.522 grain H2O = 3.475 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.050 inch = 77.47 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
89% 49.00 2683 2557 42252 95.1%

160gr TTSX, CFE223, 3.05 OAL, WLR Primer, Win Case.
49gr 2675fps .73"



Cartridge: 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet : .323, 150, Hornady SP 3232
Useable Case Capaci: 58.411 grain H2O = 3.793 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.970 inch = 75.44 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
89% 48.00 2762 2540 41808 95.2%

150gr Hornady, H4895, 2.970 OAL, WLR Primer, PMC Case.
48gr 2767fps



Cartridge: 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet : .323, 200, Nosler PART SP 35277
Useable Case Capaci: 54.727 grain H2O = 3.553 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.070 inch = 77.98 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Norma 203B

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
93 46.80 2474 2719 48523 98.5

200gr Parts, N-203b, 3.07 OAL, WLR Primer, Win case.
46.8gr 2500fps .83"



Winchester M70

Cartridge: 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet: .323, 200, Nosler PART SP 35277
Useable Case Capaci: 53.896 grain H2O = 3.499 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.030 inch = 76.96 mm
Barrel Length: 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder: IMR 4895

Fill Charge Vel Energy Pmax Prop.Burnt
93 46.00 2490 2753 49280 98.6

200gr Partition, IMR 4895, 3.03 OAL, CCI200 Primer, Nosler Case
46gr 2448fps .39"

Well I have an 8x57 enroute. It's a German sporterized military rifle. I also have a different bottom metal and double set trigger, on the way.
This will be a "true" Yuropian (European) hunting rifle.
It will be firing Nosler 180 E-Tips.
Brass is Privi virgin 8x57 with a number of different primers and powders.

Can't compare what happens to a .303 case to what happens so any 8mm case, as you are comparing apples to apricots in terms of action resistance to stretching on firing. IE, a Mauser will take far more pressure than a Lee Enfield will just because of the design.
Is US 8mm brass made weaker? I doubt it; anyone done any testing on it?
BTW, those Enfield 308s were Ishapores, made in India; they did have to improve the steel to make that work. It is not that the English used inferior steel; they used what was necessary. And the #1 bolt heads used on those, were not issued in different lengths; that was on the #4, which was not built as 308s; but some were converted.

I'd limit high pressure 8x57 loads to modern rifles like Remington 700, Mauser M03/M12, Tika, Sako, etc.

BUT - I've used my 8x57 to kill some big sh#t at moderate velocity:

200 gr Accubond 20" barrel @ 2.980"

Waterbuck - 160 yards
Red Stag - 80 yards
Elk - 60 yards
Red Stag - 250 yards

The first three were from Superior Ammo and around 2,285 fps. The last one is my load at 2,425 fps with 46 gr Varget.

I could easily get more if I wanted, but even at 250 yards, I shot the stag at an extreme quartering angle - basically in front of rear left hip (he was walking away and turned his head to the right to look back) and the bullet traveled straight through his guts and separated his heart from his lungs as I'd intended with the shot.

Now, I'm working on some Woodleigh 220 gr loads with RL-17. I want to run a higher velocity to get the same POA as the 200 gr load and decided to try RL-17 first because the calculated pressures with the cartridge full of powder are pretty moderate. I also have plenty room to play with seating depth - still at 2.980"

He too! I have a Santa Fe Mauser 98 built in 300 Winchester Magnum, and I drive a 180 at 3150+. Never had a headspace problem, but then I am a hand loader, and headspace is not a problem for a guy who does not full length size.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by plainsman456:
Darn if i only knew that those Mauser actions were junk,i would not have built that 3oo WSM on that Polish action.

Now what to do.

With the small ring types 95-96 i can see not hotrodding but with the 98,nope not a problem as long as one uses their head and don't lose it.

I load 8x57 with 196gr Norma Oryx bullet and 3.5g Alliant Reloader 17 in RWS brass for 790 m/s (2590 fps). Rifle is used by my friend to distances max. about 150 m, but mostly to 30-50 m. I tried faster loadings (3.6g of RE-17), no accuracy issue, no pressure signs, bolt easy to open, brass is fine, but big game can't recognize it and only recoil is higher. If you want fast 8mm, go for 8x68S. The same goes for cars. If you want 300 HP from 2L engine, buy 3L engine ;-). Just my two cents.
Jiri

I think the bottom line is one should be a well experienced reloader when he decides to go beyond the manuals. I have no problem with that as most manuals are playing it safe because of law suits...

If, as a reloader, you know how to work up max loads for any rifle then have at it, just be sure you do know how and what to look for, its not a guessing game altogether, but you are flying by the seat of your pants to some extent. I always use a proper firearm, not the above listed 95s, 96s, or the junk that's out there, not that I couldn't but a max load in those rifles is anemic by comparison and a waste of time IMO..

I know of no 8mm 95s or 96s, but the turks rebuilt their 93s into 8mm and even built them into the 1940s. I have also fired lots of German Ss ball in 88s too.
But for modern pressure level loads, yes, use a 98,

I agree with those who stay close to the cartridges design than hotrodding it.
If you want more than the 8 mm can give get something bigger, the 8 mm magnum comes to mind.
The same with those who want a big magnum but download it to standard velocities. Don't make much since to me.
Kinda like reduced recoil 243 loads.
Leo

But you must understand that there are at least two 8x57s; one, way underloaded by Winchester and Remington, and the other that the rest of the world uses, not being afraid of the old rifles, like the Commission 88. So, "standard velocities" in this case, vary a lot. So, it does make sense to load to the higher pressure if you want to get the performance out of your 8x57, that it was designed for, and is used, by most of the world.