One of the news channels said our troops were doing some super long range sniping out to 2 miles. I thought this possible with a 50 cal or some other new high tech weapon and announced this at the bowling alley tonight. People looked at me like I had about 6 too many beers. Can anyone tell me how this is done----or was I another victim of the typical news media bafooonism"???? Thanks Kraky

I haven't heard of 2 mile shots, Carlos H of the Vietnam era used to pull off 1 mile shots, and I do know they often use the 50 at 1-1.5 miles. It would probably be possible for some of those guys but at big targets, not individuals.

That's my guess anyway.

Don't know if its possible or not but if our snipers can make called head shots at a mile, one would think they could make a body mass shot at two miles. I hope so. Keep those iraqis nervous.

Possable? Barely! Probable? Doubtfull. With the 308? Most likely not. With the 300 or the Brits 338s. Yep. Sure is possable. Is it happening? If it is it's on the rare side not the common side. With the 50 Hell yeah!

But it can be done. Sure it can, Just not by me!!!!

[ 04-02-2003, 08:24: Message edited by: Embalmer ]

Probably 50 cal or 20mm if it's done at all. No way with .308 or anything of that ilk.

jmart

Well here's how our guy's go about it - but they aren't claiming 2 miles. I believe that using the 14.5 mm barrel & ammo they consider 2 400 m to be about the extreme limit of useful accuracy. Using explosive ammunition makes a "near-miss" quite lethal.

It's main purpose is to make life miserable for the driver of a fuel truck and the like.

cheers edi

Sure snipers can shoot people close to 2 miles, its skill and odds, I almost said luck. If you shoot a 50 cal at people all day, sooner or later your bound to get a hit.

Actually, I saw the report and they did say 2 miles.

Sorry guys - I somehow forgot to add the reference - here it is.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn55-e.htm

cheers edi

There was an article in Precision Shooting mag. awhile back about the .408 Cheytac, which i think is the 50 cal wildcatted, and necked down to accept a .408" bullet. i think they were reaching out to around 2500 with it. Of course this is nothing like those 20 mm types, but the .408 was designed as the supreme anti-personnel round where the bullet must be accurately delivered to those ranges relative to the anti-materiel types. The .408 was designed to best the ballistics of the .50 cal.

Under the rules of warfare and engagement as I understand it, .50 cal and larger are deemed to be anti-materiel weapons.

Therefore, hitting a LAV or Missle laucher, or other equipment at 3000 yards is eminently doable.

Funny thing about a SCUD, it doesn't work that well with big holes in its fuel tanks or rocket motor.

The other rumor I heard is that if you knock out the radios, they can't lauch because they can't get the word from Saddam! Clever

[ 04-02-2003, 13:22: Message edited by: DMCI* ]

For any interested in more about the .408 Cheytac, there's some current talk about it on www.longrangehunting.com If you're interested in technical, that's where it's at right now. The case, as it turns out, is based on the 505 Gibbs, not .50 BMG, as i had originally posted.

This incident from Afganistan should prove the possibility:

A world-record shot by a Canadian sniper detachment could never have been made with the ammunition they were issued when they left Edmonton last winter, the triggerman said in a recent interview.

The Canadian .50-calibre rounds have a maximum range of between 2,200 and 2,300 metres. The U.S. rounds, they discovered, "fly farther, faster," said Cpl. "Bill", a 26-year-old native of Fogo Island, Nfld.

The two-man Canadian team, coupled with American Sgt. Zevon Durham of Greenville, S.C., made the kill from 2,430 metres on the second shot.

The first blew a bag from the hand of their target, an al-Qaeda fighter walking on a road.

"He didn't even flinch," said Bill, who spoke to The Canadian Press on condition that his real name not be used.

"We made a correction and the next round hit exactly where we wanted it to. Well, a bit to the right."

The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley, beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.

Soldier of Fortune magazine estimated the number of kills made by the Canadians after talking to several U.S. soldiers in Kandahar for a cover story in its August edition.

Hey Canada, look at all the fun you are missing out in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A US citizen killed a prairie dog at 3125 yards (took 3 shots) so, while it would be his unlucky day, a man size target 400 yards farther out, which would be 2 miles, is certainly doable. Probably using 50s, some variation of the .338, or the .400 Cheytac. Remember sniping at those ranges is not necessarily a one shot affair. The "subject" is often unaware that he is a specific target.

The main problem would be the atmospheric conditions to see the target and get feedback on missed shots for corrections.

Back in the old days when I was being trained up on the Bowning .50 cal M-2 machinegun at Ft. Benning (what a wonderful weapon!) we were told that the maximum range was 5 miles and "if you can see it, you can hit it." To hit long-range objects we "walked" the rounds up to the target watching our tracers. When we started getting single shot hits then we opened up full auto. This works great on vehicles and materiel but would give enemy soldiers time to high-tail it out of the field of fire. As I recall, during the American Civil War a Union sharpshooter nailed a Confederate general at about a mile with a slug gun. They had determined the distance by triangulation and took test shots in the opposite direction. The general had a habit of standing in the same spot every morning when he shaved.

Well, some may be shooting at things at that range, but it sure would be an accident if they hit it (unless it is a very BIG target!!!)

so what is the velocity, and energy of the .50 cal at 2 miles?

Here's the link to the 408 CheyTac.
there's some other really interesting rifles there too!

WWW.cheyennetactical.com

Take a look at the thread "Military sniper cartridges" in the Military Surplus forum (this web site).

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000483

[ 04-03-2003, 08:13: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

2 km... Easy, 2 miles?

Ken

Canada is only missing out on a fire work display. The boys are helping out just fine in a legetimate cause like Afghanistan. And our boys are making those shots there to cover you out of breath ass.

I just received my April issue of "ARMY" (put out by the Association of the United States Army) and in it is an article about the Army's adaptation of the semi-auto Barrett M82A1M 50BMG. Quote from the article, "We plan to engage personnel targets out to 1,500 meters and vehicle targets out to 2,000 meters. But we have some anecdotal information that this weapon has actually engaged targets out past 2,000 meters and eliminated them." They have been used in Afghanistan and I'm sure that they are also being used in Iraq. Also, sniper targets are not alway personnel so with larger targets, 2 miles are possible.

One MOA at 2 miles means 35", mirage and wind deflection: you need a bit of luck, I guess.

Waitaminit:

No question you would need some luck, or put another way, it would be the targets unlucky day, but most of the sniper set ups shoot substantially better than MOA. Remember, the ammunition is free and it doesn't matter how many shots you shoot if one of them connects.

I think the average in Viet Nam was something on the order of 200,000 shots fired per enemy KIA. Obviously this counts machine gun, aircraft, etc. but compared to that, firing a dozen or so at a distant target even with a 5% probability of a hit is chicken feed. And, I can tell you this, I wouldn't want to be the target standing there, even for the first shot. I'm real unlucky.

THEY'LL ALWAYS TELL YOU ABOUT THE HITS THEY MADE, BUT NOT ABOUT THE OTHER TIMES WHEN THEY MISSED.

Here is a link which provides trajectory and ballistics for the .50 cal.
Tom Miller's Extreme Firearms -Ballistics for the Windrunner.htm

The link doesn't seem to work so here is the ballistic info.


Ballistics for the .50 BMG
The following information was given to Tom S. Miller by Mr. Skip Talbot, FCSA consultant, regarding the ballistics of the .50 BMG cartridge. This information reprinted with permission from Sierra Bullets Infinity Exterior Ballistics Software. Copyright 1999 Sierra Bullets LLC All Rights Reserved.
Atmospheric Conditions
Humidity=50%
Temperature=45 degrees Fahrenheit
Wind Velocity=1 mph @ 3:00 (full value wind)
Elevation=5000 feet above sea level

Cartridge
.50 BMG
800 grain LRS solid projectile (Similar to Barnes 800 grain borerider)
ballistic coefficient=1.095
muzzle velocity=2650 fps
rifle zeroed @ 200 yards

@ 1000 yards
velocity=2015 fps
energy=7200 ft. lbs.
drop=236 inches
wind drift=2.93 inches
time of flight=1.298 seconds

@1750 yards
velocity=1630 fps
energy=4720 ft. lbs.
drop=892 inches
wind drift=9.39 inches
time of flight=2.458 seconds

@2000 yards
velocity=1482 fps
energy=3900 ft. lbs.
drop=1355 inches
wind drift=13.6 inches
time of flight=3.037 seconds

@2500 yards
velocity=1266 fps
energy=2849 ft. lbs.
drop=2460 inches
wind drift=23 inches
time of flight=4.135 seconds

@2800 yards
velocity=1159 fps (projectile becomes sub-sonic)
energy=2387 ft. lbs.
drop=3375 inches
wind drift=30.15 inches
time of flight=4.88 seconds

Information about the Velocity of Sound at different air temperatures

32 degrees F.=1088 fps

68 degrees F.=1129 fps

212 degrees F.=1266 fps

932 degrees F.=1814 fps


Home of the Windrunner XM107 .50 BMG Tactical Take Down Rifle.

Copyright � 2001 Hyacinth Software

[ 04-04-2003, 05:24: Message edited by: JerryM ]

saw a photo in the local paper of one of ours (US) using a Barret 50. Caption (which may or may not be accurate) said he was sniping at enemy troops.

...thought that was a war crime unless they were in vehicles...but not enough info was given.

So possible? - Yep.

@RezDog:
I found this version:

"Soon after the commencement of the action, General Arnold, knowing the military character and efficiency of General Fraser, and observing bis motions in leading and conducting the attack, said to Colonel Morgan, 'That officer upon a grey horse is of himself a host, and must be disposed of - direct the attention of some of the sharp-shooters among your riflemen to him.' Morgan nodded his assent to Arnold, repaired to bis riflemen, and made known to them the hint given by Arnold.
Immediately upon this, the crupper of the grey horse was cut by a rifle bullet, and within the next minute another passed through the horse's mane a little back of his ears.
An aide of Fraser, noticing this, observed to him, 'Sir, it is evident that you are marked out for particular aim; would it not be prudent for you to retire from this place ?', Fraser replied, 'My duty forbids me to fly from danger,' and immediately received a bullet through bis body. A few grenadiers were detached to carry him to the Smith house.

The rifleman who downed Fraser from his exposed position is thought to be Tim Murphy, a legendary Indian fighter and one of Morgan's best marksmen."
in: Gilbert "Stalk and Kill",p.6

I remember another version :
Gen. Fraser's last words: " Why do you duck ? At this distance, they will not even hit an elepha..."

@Gatogordo:

I found two figures of Vietnam statistics:

200 000 round/1 KIA and 50 000 rounds M16/KIA
but
1.3 sniper rounds/KIA (for both versions).

[ 04-04-2003, 15:23: Message edited by: waitaminit ]

Thanks for the info Jerry. That is some impressive numbers, looks like the .50 could make those really long shots. Plenty of velocity, and the winddrift is manageable. You would have to be precise in your range and windage.

...with two miles = 3500 yrds
'Load from a Disk' says for the 800 grs bullet

938 fps, 1562 ft.lbs, 7.4 sec, 7770 in drop, 61 in winddrift/1 mile/h

Excuse me! What is one going to be able to see through a scope at 2 miles? If we are shooting at buildings and vehicles I can understand it, but people?!!! According to a recent post, the 50 cal bullet drops 205 FEET (if sighted in at 500 yards) when it reaches 2500 yards. At 2800 yards it has dropped 281 FEET. Unless one has very good rangefinding one is going to be SOL. By the way, as someone has pointed out we are still not at 2 miles which, according to my calculations is 3520 yards. I have read the Carlos Hathcock biography. My inpression was that his long range shot was made with a Leupold scope "strapped" to a 50 BMG Machine gun, fired single shot. I suspect that he was as surprised as the reporters when the person dropped. Snipers are very good at what they do. Carlos was very good, but by no means the most successful marine sniper. I think we do them a disservice if we make them "supermen". Ballistics and optics are just limitations that they bump up against.
Peter.

If you're high enough up in elevation, seeing two miles is the easiest part of the equation. You'd be amazed how far you can see in the mountains. With the addition of good optics picking out a person would be do-able. I've watched game from over two miles in the mountains, using a spotting scope, and if a blind old coot like me can see a sheep, I'm pretty sure some young buck with good eyes and a technical assist wouldn't have a problem. - Dan

Just to set the record straight, I believe in what you (USA) are doing in Iraq. I believe Canada should be there, even if we don't have the equipment, or the manpower. We could send our politicians! Can't seem to be rid of 'em any other way.

Peter:

10 years ago a friend of mine bought a "used" Russian laser range finder which was about the size of a large pair of binoculars. It was accurate to =/- one meter up to 20,000 meters. As a matter of fact, he took it back to Russia and used it to kill a sheep at 560 yards. I'm sure the US has some that are at least that good. So exact ranging is not the problem.

HEY, C'MON GUYS, HAVEN'T YOU EVER HEARD OF "MAGIC" BULLETS. THE MILITARY HAS 'EM!

REALLY!

HONEST!

Here's a little wrench in the works for you. Several years ago, i went out with Bruce Artus here in Pueblo, CO when he was attempting to hit a pr. dog @ 2 miles. i'm not going to tell you guys about the equipment he was using, that would take some time, but while i was spotting through an old Bushnell Sentry spotting scope of around 20X (if i remember the X part correctly), once he and partner Kregg Slack started shooting it took a little time before i could make out the pr. dog town they were shooting at, a little longer before i could make out the mound they were shooting at, and yet a little longer still before i could resolve the pr. dog. But before i knew it, believe it or not, i could actually tell which way the dog was facing on the mound. They were hitting within 10 or so feet of the dog, before the wind started. These guys were actually able to dope it (about 10 m.p.h.) with Elmer Laitala's long-range base and ring system. Finally after about 20 shots one of their bullets hit within several inches of the dog, and spooked it off the mound. It may take them a while before they get one, but watching these guys shoot has got to be one of the most fascinating experiences of my life.

[ 04-05-2003, 10:05: Message edited by: sscoyote ]

I would think every poster on any long range board could make a two mile shot every day of the week, of course only if they were using matchkings.......

I found this today in another forum:

Look I usually shoot 100 and 200 yards. But, I compete at 3000 yards with a .50 cal BMG I was taught to snipe and spent a good number of years doing so from the short door of a huey with an FN FAL G2 Heavy Barrel.
I carried the highest marks as a shooter in the military. I have a LOT of competitions behind me.

[ 04-08-2003, 22:19: Message edited by: waitaminit ]