There's been a lot of talk about which is the best singlestage press on the market, and the consensus seems to be that the Forster Co-Ax can't be beaten. Now I'd be interested to hear from your experiences, what are the worst, most unreliable singlestage and progressive presses still on the market.

My votes go to Lee Challenger in the singlestage category, and Lee Pro 1000 for progressives. I learned to reload with one of the Pro 1000s my shooting club owned. Talk about learning the hard way, what with the thousand plus ways the damn thing can malfunction. That was about twelve years ago, and I still get heartburn when I think about it...

Otto P.

Eddie

Jim

R-WEST

[This message has been edited by R-WEST (edited 05-04-2002).]

Fact -- Lee has 2 year unconditional warranty. If something breaks, the replacement is free, just like RCBS. After that, you pay for replacements. Not as good a deal as RCBS, but then I'd have break the links about 15 times over before I went into the red for what I pay for one Rockchucker. And at a couple thousand rounds so far, I'm pretty confident my Challenger won't blow over in the wind.

Fact -- Lee stuff is affordable. Richard Lee has done more to introduce people to reloading by providing good equipment at a very reasonable price. Equipment that works and is ingenous (case trimmer, collet die, primer seater, powder measures, etc). He wouldn't be my first choice for high volume pistol (Dillon, not RCBS) or shotgun (Pons(sp??) Warren, not RCBS), but for most applications his stuff works just fine.

Perception -- RCBS equipment is vastly superior to Lee's AND RCBS has the best customer service in the industry. I always wonder how so many people get to know first hand how superior this customer service is. Is it because everything always works perfectly and we feel an uncontrollable urge to just call RCBS up and let them know how good their stuff is, or is it perhaps because either their decapping pins break (leaving one dead in the water for that caliber, a problem that you'll never have with a Lee die) or their dies make straight cases crooked, or whatever. I'll admit, I've never heard a story of RCBS not making something right, but I've heard plenty of stories of products requiring replacement.

Fact -- Glenn Zediker, a long time HP competitor and author of a good couple of books about AR's and reloading states he uses several Lee presses set up for specific tasks, and they all produce very concentric ammo, as concentric as any other press he uses, and they don't break. He also compared Lee's Perfect Powder measure (all of $22) against a bunch of high dollar measures and using IMR 4064 (a suitable substitute for mulch in some circles), it produced the most consistent charges of any measure tested. Frank Murphy who wrote a bit for Prec Shooting ran the same test using H322, and Lee's measure stacked up very favorably against anything sold today (Redding, RCBS, Lyman). The only two measures that worked better were a Harrel's (0.1g better in extreme spread for only a $180 premium) and a discontinued Belding and Mull.

Look, there's Timex's, Seiko's and Rolex's. Craftmanship differs between all, pride of ownership differs between all, but in the end, they all keep time the same. No different with Lee's stuff. JMHO!

Martindg

[This message has been edited by Martindog (edited 05-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by downwindtracker2 (edited 05-04-2002).]

It almost sounds like you're upset over something. I haven't used Lee products other than their presses, but the negative experience I've had, I wont be "investing" my money on their equipment. And I would advise anybody starting out to avoid Lee presses.

Fact -- Of the different presses I've used (RCBS, Lee, Dillon, Lyman), Lee is with out a doubt the lowest quality.

Fact -- I never said you couldn't make accurate ammo with a Challenger. If you know what you're doing, and use quality dies, that shouldn't be too difficult. But when your press is broken, it's close to impossible.

Fact -- Lee presses DO break; mine did after only about 3000 loaded rounds. Think about it � seven replys, five broken presses. If Glenn Zediker's press didn't break, well, good for him.

Fact -- While Lees are cheap, in the long run it's more economical to buy a press that will last.

Question � In your opinion, what is the worst reloading press on the market today?

Assumption � So you must have a filled your reloading room with Lee products, and can't stand it if someone doesn't regard said equiptment as highly as you do?

Best regards,

Otto P.

IF I start reloading, I only expect to load around 300 rounds per year. When my kids get hunting age, that may triple. But I think Lee will be a good starter kit, and an avenue to reloading that I otherwise couldn't afford.

I don't know where you got those prices, but, you're shopping at the wrong place. You can get the RCBS Master kit right now from Natchez (www.natchezss.com) for $224.00. If you insist on the Lee stuff, Natchez also has the Anniversary kit, including a set of dies for around $70.00.

If you don't intend to load 1,000 rounds a year, the Lee may work okay. I use some of their dies, and their hand priming tool, all of which work well.

If given the choice, I'd just as soon not have to use the manufacturer's warranty. I'd rather have a quality piece that doesn't need repaired/replaced.

R-WEST

------------------
Doug Humbarger
NRA Life member

FACT- I sent it back and they returned it to me saying nothing was wrong. I sent it back and demanded a new one which they sent. Down time of two weeks.

FACT-my linkage broke not too long ago and I was just neck sizing 22-250 brass. That put me down for over a week.

If you put a value on your down time you can clearly see you'd been better off in the long run buying a better press.

I've found the case chamfer is about useless, I can't use Federal primers in the autoprime, the powder measure is flimsy enough to cause added fatigue(compared to a rock solid measure) and the powder scale's tenths slide isn't the most user friendly arangemnet in the world.

I can't complain about the dies and the case trimmers but the rest of the stuff is like using a socket set from the grocery store to overhaul a small block.

MHO,
Chris

[This message has been edited by CISCO (edited 05-04-2002).]

Their full length sizing dies frequently have a burr at the base of the neck that scratches the necks of rifle brass. Of the five Lee rifle dies I own, three have had this problem. It's an annoyance, easily fixed with a Dremel tool buffer.

So I have to agree that Lee has a design problem on the Challenger, and cosmetic defects on their dies. However, I still say it is by far the best value around. Having fixed the problems, I expect another few decades of use from my press. If it works for as long as I can imagine using it, does everything I ask of it, and produces ammo that is just like everyone else's, then exactly what would I gain by spending triple the price? Pride of ownership of something that is functionally indistinguishable, but costs a lot more money? Is spending more money supposed to make me feel better??

If I had known in advance that fixing the toggle links would cost me $8, and that I would have to buff out three burrs, I would still have chosen Lee. I wish they'd do better on some points, but all things considered, I can't even come close to beating the value.

First off, I am not knocking RCBS or ANY manufacturer out there. From my standpoint, there really aren't any "bad" presses out there. It just depends what your requirements are. If those requirements include case forming or bullet swaging, I would recommend something beefier than the Lee Challenger, and honestly I probably would go with a Rockchucker or maybe even an Ultramag. But if all you are going to do is deprime, resize cases, and seat bullets (which I believe is about where 95% stop in our reloading endevours), the Challenger works great.

It does have a single weakness -- the zinc toggle links. I myself have written about how mine cracked and required replacement. Lee sent them to me free of charge. Since I was coming up near the end of my 2 year warranty I ordered a spare set for all of $5 to have on hand in case I had a repeat occurrence. The Lee tech advised that the links are prone to breaking when the bolt which clamps them together loosens and the handle slides down in the links. Since receiving that bit of advice, I just check to make sure everything sets up correctly, and I haven't had a problem since (3 years now). I also have a spare set of links in case I do ever have a problem so my downtime would be about all of 5 minutes.

Every other part of that press is steel -- the ram, the pins, the connecting link. I wouldn't expect any of these to ever require replacement. The frame is an aircraft grade aluminum alloy, similar I believe to RCBS's Partner press. Maybe if you jammed an unlubed case in a die you could bend the frame trying to unstick it, but I doubt it (I think you'd rip the casehead off first). I have never heard of a frame breaking, maybe someone else has.

My total investment in my Challenger was about $35 initial cost plus the $5 bucks I spent on spare links. I think the least expensive cast iron single stage is Redding's Boss (about $90) followed by the Rockchucker (about $100-110 mailorder). That $50-60 saved can go towards other reloading stuff -- scales, measures, powder, bullets, or premium dies which are probably the most important reloading component.

I am not trying to dissuade anyone from going with a Rockchucker (or any other product) if that's where you're leaning. I'm convinced you'll be satisfied with your purchase. But what I would like folks to consider (especially if you were on a budget like I was) is Lee's Challenger.

It takes conviction to go with Lee. Initially you'll find yourself reloading only late at night with just a flashlight so the neighbors won't see you. Some require intensive psychotherapy to deal with their perceived inadequacies. One afternnon, Oprah had a whole show dedicated to reloaders who used only Lee equipment -- there faces were blacked out and there voices were altered, but they got through it OK. Once you get over your initial shame I think you will too

Martindog

quote:

---

I always wonder how so many people get to know first hand how superior this customer service is.

---

For the same reason there are more 1911 parts available than any other firearm. The only parts RCBS has ever replaced for me are a couple I've broken while "experimenting" and a few I've lost. Replaced a spring on my Projector. Got weak after entering the high six digit zone. Dillon has replaced a total of two parts on the three different presses I've owned. Haven't replaced anything on my Ponsness Warren or any of the three Lymans. The few repairs required came after doing something I shouldn't have or after loading a grrrrreat deal more than a couple of thousand rounds.

quote:

---

I'll admit, I've never heard a story of RCBS not making something right, but I've heard plenty of stories of products requiring replacement.

---

The only bad thing I've heard (and witnessed first hand on four occassions) about Lee is continual breakage and a very limited lifespan.

I don't buy Lee products for the same reason I wouldn't buy an RG firearm, or a Yugo (anyone remember those?).

Eddie

I may consider it, but am unsure how much trouble I would have importing it into Komrade Kretiens Kanada.

[This message has been edited by Johnny Ringo (edited 05-04-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny Ringo:
IF I start reloading, I only expect to load around 300 rounds per year. When my kids get hunting age, that may triple. But I think Lee will be a good starter kit, and an avenue to reloading that I otherwise couldn't afford.

---

Johnny:

Why not skip the starter kit and buy the finisher kit right out of the gate??? My first and last press is a Forster Co-Ax. If I were you I would check the different Redding Boss reloading kits available. Great equipment at a great price...be sure to check Graf & Sons for pricing: www.grafs.com .

www.redding-reloading.com

RSY

As someone suggested, it depends what you want to do with the reloading press. If you are into case forming and swagging, go with the most powerful thing you can get. If you are into light, standard reloading, probably any of them will work.

That said my first point would be it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out Lee presses are vastly less strong and heavily built. Just pick one up. But they will work for normal things and if I wanted an inexpensive press, I wouldn't be afraid to get one.

Let me get off the battle about reloading presses here and point at a few things reloaders often overlook completely...and each has a profound influence on the performance of ANY reloading press.

1. The dies. If you have a rough, poorly polished set of reloading dies, then your press is going to have to struggle with that forever. Everything you do with the press will require extra strain on you and the press to overcome this flaw. If you suspect your dies are less than perfect, polish the suckers internally with a fine diamond cloth on piece of dowel or other fine polishing compound.

2. Case Lube - Many reloaders are just flat careless about lubing their cases prior to reloading. Poorly lubed cases will cause you the same grief as poor dies.
The new spray on lubes are excellent and easy to use. There is no excuse any more for not lubing your cases good. Inside the neck as well.

3. Press Mounting - How is your reloading press mounted and what is it mounted to? The answer to this question can have far reaching consequences like you wouldn't believe. Let me give you an example: My first reloading press was a little RCBS Jr. and I simply bolted it to a wooden desk top. It worked fine for normal chores but then I started doing some DRASTIC case conversions. This task took such brute force that eventually I literally tore the top off the desk! I put the desk back together with some reinforcement here and there, but I also decided to bolt the press to a STEEL PLATE about 8 inches square to better distribute the stress and strain. The simple addition of a 1/4inch steel plate beneath my press made unbelievable difference in the ease my press would perform all functions. I have NEVER mounted a press to anything but steel plates since. My current reloading bench is built of 2 x 6 lumber and the press mounted to large chunk of 1/4 inch plate.
Needless to say I can do anything on this rig.

Anyone who pays attention to these three points can probably live happily ever after with any press on the market. Some of the bad experiences people have with the lighter weight presses probably are a result of ignoring one or all of these fundamental issues. Good dies. Good lube. Good mount. = Good Reloading Experience.

------------------
A well placed bullet is worth 1,000 ft/lbs of energy.

[This message has been edited by Pecos45 (edited 05-05-2002).]

For thos interested....www.wholesalesports.com

[This message has been edited by Johnny Ringo (edited 05-05-2002).]

For those interested....www.wholesalesports.com

[This message has been edited by stubblejumper (edited 05-05-2002).]

------------------
From my cold, dead hands!
Thanks Chuck!

OK . . .

I completely screwed up an RCBS primer tool, the bench mounted one. I got two primers stacked together and forced the lever -- galling the ram and otherwise destroying the machine work in the base of the tool.

RCBS sent me a new tool, even paid postage. My old tool was 15 yrs old and obsolete. RCBS had improved the design. I got the improved design -- upgraded for free.

The Uniflow Powder Measure has a machined die in the works. This is what measures the powder. It's an expensive part. RCBS started making a smaller "pistol" die for the Uniflow measure that is more accurate with smaller powder volumes. RCBS sent me one, free. They paid postage too.

RCBS has changed the cap on the Uniflow measure. If you want the new rubber cap, they'll send you one. I got one when I asked for a new plastic tip for the powder measure. The tip I had dropped on the floor and got crunched under the leg of my stool. My fault, ooooooops . . .

RCBS replaces the item, "NO QUESTIONS" . . . none. I asked a rep. how they could do this. He says that their best "test lab" is their consumer. If their consumer can break it, RCBS wants to see the damage so they can engineer around it.

So . . . a few extra bucks on the bench. And I know that when RCBS comes out with an improved version, I'll get the new parts, and RCBS even pays the postage.

Such a deal!

------------------
.223 Ackley Improved Wildcat Forum:
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=223ackleyimproved

I do have a few small items by Lee and they work great, but i would not buy one of there presses if they are still made of that cheap white "monkey metal". I would however be happy to try some Lee dies as they seem well made...

[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 05-06-2002).]

griff

Lee press PRO 1000 and Lee press LOAD MASTER.
Very bad copy of Dillon press.

The rest of Lee press (hand press and turret press) work just fine for the price.

------------------
BER007
Keep the faith in any circumstances
------------------------
BBER007@HOTMAIL.COM

(I'll break the code on that smiley thing yet!)

[This message has been edited by Matt Norman (edited 05-06-2002).]

quote:

---

I have reloaded more than 30,000 rounds on it...haven't broken a damn thing on any of it

---

I think that's the ticket. Low numbers - no problem, the Lee works fine. When you shoot 30,000 in a six month period, it's time to upgrade. I don't shoot that much these days, but when I did I wanted equipment that was up to the challenge.

Eddie

The only Lee product I have ever used was a set of .44 spl/mag dies...(I've never used their presses or powder measures, so I speak only about the dies)...I considered them a steaming load of excrement compared to a set of Dillon pistol dies. Plastic seating stem with crude depth control, cheap pot metal or aluminum die body (don't remember which-definately NOT steel), crappy crimp, and the sizer die wouldn't reduce the case size enough to give me a good bullet grip, meaning I had to crimp the sh*t out of the round, and it still didn't run through my levergun without the bullet working it's way back into the case. Gave them away (litterally) and got a set of Dillon pistol dies, with the seperate crimp die and reversable seat stem, what a difference! Now if I need a pistol die, and Dillon makes it, that's the one I get. I have 4 sets now.

I have only broken one RCBS decapping pin, in 30-06, about 10 years ago and I hadn't set the die up properly, haven't done it since. It was my error, I believe.

I understand the point about starting out and looking at cost. It makes sense from one standpoint...I just don't like buying things twice, or having to upgrade later. You could buy a used press for the cost of the new Lee, and have a superior product, in my opinion. Also, if you decide NOT to stay in reloading...you will have an easier time selling a used RCBS or Dillon product than a used Lee product, also my opinion.

"Quality is remembered long after price is forgotten." I don't remember what I paid for my Dillon...I think $150-165 (if that much)? Worth every penny to me.

Mike

------------------
Victory Through Superior Firepower!

-> If they decide loading is not for them, they haven't spent a fortune on something that sits in the closet. You can still recoup about the same percentage if you wish to resell it.

-> For the limited outlay, you have the extra funds to get a tumbler, pocket chamfer, decapper dies, crimp dies, more than one die set, several powders, safety glasses that don't scratch just by sitting on the bench, ammo boxes, cleaners, whatever. Start off with a full bench for the same price as a bare-bones setup in another brand and your ammo will in fact be better.

-> Should you decide to move up to something else, you will undoubtedly find a use for all the Lee stuff anyhow. And you will have recieved a cheap introduction to loading to make a good decision on your next setup. That also frees it up to be given to a young reloader with limited funds (have them wash your car and mow your lawn), or lend it to a freind (about the same risk as lending out a set of sockets), mount it to a board and clamp it on the tailgate at the range, or at the deer lease (if it gets damaged, so what?).

I personally don't see the logic in a rockchucker if you aren't going to size cast bullets; a cheap lee O-press is about as good and a Dillon progressive is better. And I can't stand RCBS dies. I'll trade my RCBS carbide 9mm dies with shellholder for a carbide Lee set right now. Any takers?