basically, the magazine in a gun I'm working with is forcing me well short of where I'd like to be for the length I'd like to be using and I'm probably WELL off the lands...

anything I need to know moving forward?

slower-burning powders? faster-burning? ????

a little lost and frustrated on this one.

I have a 300 WSM that has that problem and I have a load that I load first in the chamber and magazine loads in case the second shot is needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Surko:
I have a 300 WSM that has that problem and I have a load that I load first in the chamber and magazine loads in case the second shot is needed.

I thought about that... but I'm not the primary shooter for this rifle, my dad is. granted he's only 55 and has his wits full about him, but I suspect he'll view that as a "convoluted solution"

having the magazine modified is simply NOT an available option on this gun (I sooo wish it was)

First off, it may shoot just fine with a long jump to the lands. I have one Load for a rifle that is about 0.268"(I think) Off-the-Lands and shoots great.

What kind of Bullet/Weight are you trying to use?

What distance is your Father intending to take shots?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
First off, it may shoot just fine with a long jump to the lands. I have one Load for a rifle that is about 0.268"(I think) Off-the-Lands and shoots great.

What kind of Bullet/Weight are you trying to use?

What distance is your Father intending to take shots?

working with 150gr .308s right now in a 30-06 (Mauser 98 conversion). currently using the Hornady GMX, but will likely be scrapping that for either the Barnes TSX or CT E-tip...

shooting distances vary from 30 FEET to 400yds...

This specific load-development-project is intended for general use (whitetail, coyotes, cow elk)right now, but also because I plan to borrow the gun for a sheep hunt in the next year or so... and I am comfortable taking any shot that the terminal ballistics will justify. (insert disclaimer on conditions, light, etc... not taking a dumb shot, but I don't want to have to pass up a shot because I can't trust the guns accuracy.

Different factories are all over the place with chambers so the bullet jump is all over the place with factory ammo.

Load your ammo to function through the magazine and let the targets tell you if there is a problem.

I have a Tikka T-3 .270 WSM that has such a long freebore that one would have to load most spitzer bullets 0.900 longer than the magazine to even reach the lands. Factory velocities are as much as 390 fps lower than factory spec. velocities. Example: Federal .270 WSM 140gr Nosler Accubond lists vel. at 3200fps. Actual chronographed vel. is 2810. Very dissapointing, 'til I see the accuracy. most groups with this factory ammo are around .300" or better.
I started to look for bullets with a "shorter" ogive and found the 160 gr. Nosler semi spitzer loaded to fit my magazine to be somewhat closer to the lands, but still WAY much freebore!!
I noticed something of very low pressure signs with the factory Federals. The loads were compressed, so, I pulled the bullets and found they contained a flattend ball type powder in a quite a heavy grain weight as apposed to published load data that thought me to conclude that the powder was a very slow type for burn rate. I also noticed a large amount of muzzle flash, which dosen't conclude much,but makes one think of a slower burning powder.
I went on to load the 160 Noslers with RL-19 useing published MAX data
to fit the magazine. The load was still very short of the lands, but produced velocities within 100fps of the published data velocities.
The accuracy was "breathtakingly" FANTASTIC!!!!
Mostly, one hole groups!!! Every time!!!
Still, pressure signs were in line. Indicating somewhat lower pressure.
I am looking now to work up a "single shot" load to use more powder, and seat the bullet closer to the lands somewhat closer to the lands.
I and working now with some of the Berger VLD's
I let you all know how things work out.

nice... thanks.

here's the safety message ... if you have a load for X OAL, that same load WILL be higher pressure at <X .. throat or not, we are talking initial pressure .. this can mean alot, it may mean a little

Let me see if I understand your "problem".
The magazine in your rifle is limiting the maximum length of the cartridge you are wanting to load.
The load you want is a .308 Win with a Hornady GMX 150 grain bullet.
AND this is being loaded for a Mauser conversion.
My first question would be. Is the rifle chambered in 308, you are not really clear. But I will assume(Dangerous to assume any thing)the rifle is a 308 chamber. And was converted from a 30-06 previous chambering.
That being the case 308 max COL is 2.820". The 30-06 max COL is 3.340"
If you are having trouble loading max length 308's in the magazine the "smith" who did the work made the magazine box incorrectly, and needs to make this correction on his dime.
IMHO.
If the job is not right it is not right.
It's your rifle and loading for the shorter length can be done. But I would not want to let the smith off the hook that easily. You paid good money for the job. It should be done right.
Rant off
Sorry Bout That

muck

NOT 308 win...

.308 cal, 30-06.

sorry about that.


my grandfather did the conversion 60-some years ago, the magazine is untouched original 8x57mm spec... hence why it won't allow a full-length '06 round.... wasn't ever meant for it and grandpa always "rolled his own" anyway.

I have a Mauser in 35 Whelen that HAS had magazine work done and it doesn't feed very well... so I'm not about to mess up the only thing that isn't perfect on this rifle mecanically.

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Helmet:
currently using the Hornady GMX, but will likely be scrapping that for either the Barnes TSX or CT E-tip... shooting distances vary from 30 FEET to 400yds...

This specific load-development-project is intended for general use (whitetail, coyotes, cow elk)right now, but also because I plan to borrow the gun for a sheep hunt in the next year or so... and I am comfortable taking any shot that the terminal ballistics will justify. (insert disclaimer on conditions, light, etc... not taking a dumb shot, but I don't want to have to pass up a shot because I can't trust the guns accuracy.

Hey Dark Helmet, That helps us understand a lot better.

The Bullet(and Bullets) you are currently interested in all have a relatively high B.C., which means they are very sleek(aka: a very long tapered Ogive). That Design is working against trying to get them Seated close to the Lands(with your magazine limitation) simply due to their shape. If you are determined to use them, then do as SR4759 mentioned, "Load your ammo to function through the magazine and let the targets tell you if there is a problem." Until you try shooting them at that distance(out to 400yds), you really don't know if you have a problem or not. Seating close to the Lands is not always necessary for good accuracy.

But, if it is a problem, then you can simply switch to a less sleek Bullet(lower B.C.), with perhaps a 165gr, and the distance from the Ogive to the Lands will automatically become closer. This is the same thing Idkier mentioned. For many years I used nothing but Round Nose Bullets out to 400yds and was not handicapped at all. Today you could use a Nosler Partition, Trophy Bonded, Mag Tip, Grand Slam, be closer to the Lands, and still have excellent Bullets. The only thing you would be loosing is using the "newest" Bullet on the shelf and not enough Trajectory to matter.

Your chances of getting an excellent Load improve quickly if you use the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method.

But, I'd encourage you to try what you have first, and then decide if your current Bullet selection meets your needs. Just because "we" want to use a specific Bullet, doesn't mean that it will always shoot well in a particular rifle.

Best of luck to you.

I am having the devils own time trying to understand how using a different bullet will help get the bullet closer to the lands if the OAL of the cartridge fitting in the magazine is the limiting facter! What am I missing here? It seems to me that if the OAL is limited by what length the magazine will accept, that the only way to fix the problem is to modify the magazine or have the barrel shortened and rechambered! Please, educate me.

quote:

Originally posted by R D McMillan:
I am having the devils own time trying to understand how using a different bullet will help get the bullet closer to the lands if the OAL of the cartridge fitting in the magazine is the limiting facter! What am I missing here? It seems to me that if the OAL is limited by what length the magazine will accept, that the only way to fix the problem is to modify the magazine or have the barrel shortened and rechambered! Please, educate me.

the bullet doesn't contact the rifling but at its WIDEST point... the sooner the bullet gets to that point along its length, the shorter the distance between the lands and the bullets widest point (assuming you are loading it as "long" as possible.

that part makes complete sense to me... I'm just praying that I get something good out of this batch.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Your chances of getting an excellent Load improve quickly if you use the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method.

my life just got soooooo much easier. THANK YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by R D McMillan:
I am having the devils own time trying to understand how using a different bullet will help get the bullet closer to the lands if the OAL of the cartridge fitting in the magazine is the limiting facter! What am I missing here?

Hey RD, Dark Helmet did a right good job of explaining the situation. But if it is still a bit tricky to see, I can provide you an easy with a way to see for yourself.

For example, take a 165gr 30cal Ballistic Tip(I just measured one) and imagine the "Tip" Seated so it is against the front of the Magazine. Also mentally picture when the Cartridge is chambered that there is a Gap between the "Point on the Ogive that makes contact with the Lands" and the Lands in the Barrel. Lets say this Gap is 0.215" Off-the-Lands, which(for some reason) a lot of folks would consider a long way for the Bullet to jump before reaching the Lands.

Now remove the Plastic tip(it's length is 0.200" beyond the beginning of the Bullet), Reseat the Bullet to once again touch the front of the magazine. When you chamber the Cartridge, now the Bullet is Seated 0.015" Off-the-Lands. This alteration would basically lower the B.C. to something approaching that of a typical Partition, Trophy Bonded, Mag Tip or Grand Slam.

Or, take any Bullet of the same caliber with a lower B.C. which means the Profile is less sleek, blunter so to speak, and exchange it for the sleek Bullet Seated against the magazine. When you chamber it, the "Point on the Ogive that makes contact with the Lands" is automatically moved forward.

Now we all know not to Seat Bullets against the magazine, but I was simply using that as a "fixed Reference Point" for you.

quote:

It seems to me that if the OAL is limited by what length the magazine will accept, that the only way to fix the problem is to modify the magazine or have the barrel shortened and rechambered! Please, educate me.

This is true if you are determined to use the "same" high B.C. Bullet, instead of switching to something with a lower B.C. However, just like DH, the really high B.C. Bullet might shoot just fine with a bit of a jump to the Lands.

Best of luck to you.

I'm trying to find the Barnes TSX locally, and I know I can find a Partition. so I'm going to work loads up for both of those.

interestingly... the more I think of it, it shoots the short winchester 150s best now, and they have to have a HUGE jump to the lands, so maybe the gun won't care!

Dark Helmet and Hot Core---OK--got it thanks! Must have had my brain in low gear yesterday! Have a great day!

quote:

Originally posted by R D McMillan:
Must have had my brain in low gear yesterday!

I know this feeling...