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Hi all' I'm trying to find the beginning of the lands in my rifle.I'm using a Stoney Point OAL tool, modified case, comparator, bullet bushing and caliper. The problem is out of eighteen tries I've mostly come up with eighteen different readings.The measurements are very close, but that only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. I thought of using the average of the eighteen readings for my reference or starting point, or simply use the mearsurement with the shortest OAL. Below I'll give an example of what I'm saying by using just six of the readings. 1. 3.728 2. 3.729 3. 3.733 4. 3.730 5. 3.727_________or 3.727 6. 3.729 22.376/6=3.729 Maybe my theories are all up the creek. Would like someone in the know to straighten me out. Oh---Buy the way, I'm loading from the top and have plenty of bullet in the case. 7MM Rem Mag 162gr. Hornady SST bt. Thanks Bob | ||
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Take out one highest reading and one lowest, and average the rest. Using the figures you gave, you're still averaging 3.729. I would start with those (assuming the other 12 readings fit the range), and go from there. | |||
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Those measurements are actually pretty close and consistant. When Barnes recommends seating a bullet .05" from the lands, 3.727" to 3.723" is .006" and is probably insignificant. Even if you were trying to seat .01" from the lands then you would still be close enough at 3.730" to not make a significant difference. Personally, I have not found a load that preferred to be seated less than .015" and most seem to do just fine at .02" to .025", except for the Barnes which I will seat at .05". I think the small differences come from different pressure when pushing the bullet into the lands before taking the measurement. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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You have a good consistent read. Only way to improve on it would be to have a weight to put on the back of the pushrod to give you the same force each time. My "calibrated finger" gives me about the same type results as you have. My advice--go with it, and adjust your bullet seating depth until you find the "sweet spot" for that bullet/barrel combo. An old pilot, not a bold pilot, aka "the pig murdering fool" | |||
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try smoking a seated bullet lands will show up on blackend round ,no primer please | |||
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First off let me say:  Hey Bob, I'm always surprised, when anyone else is surprised, by those results with the stoney point thingy. It is just the way they work - no accuracy. If you want to solve the problem, toss the "thingy" in the trash, or give it to someone you don't really care for. Then follow this Link (EDITED OUT) provided by some very astute old time-proven-method-using Handloader.  Very simple, very straight forward, totally repeatable accuracy and unlike the "thingy" it won't cost you a thing, if you have a Cleaning Rod and a 0.001" capable set of Calipers. Best of luck to you. | |||
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I am with Hot Core. The Dettorre Custom COAL techinque. Roller ball fine point pen. 28 inch 1/4 inch dowel. Cheap hotel ball point pen caus ethey flex. Step 1) close bolt. dowel in bbl to bolt face. mark at dowel at muzzle. slide dowel back a few inches Step 2) open bolt. drop bullet into chamber. press to lands with butt end of cheap ball point pen. push bolt folder to put tension on pen. push dowel forward until tocgues bullet tip. mark dowel at muzzle. measure distance between two marks. you now have COAL for said bullet. 3) return stoney point thing to catalog order place. take refund. buy good red wine. look for blondes who like red wine. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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so... 3.727 to 3.733 ... .004 diference.. or 0.4 (not 4) percent. and this is a case of PII... the longest you can feed from the mag is 3.4 and the longest you can seat THAT bullet, assuming single feed and .284 seating depth, is 3.523, or there's no way you can hit the lands. I like mikes way, and you should be about to read the marks with .005. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Hey Bob You dropped into an ongoing battle between horse-and-buggy thinking (Hot Core)  and modern-day-thinkers (like me)  about using Stoney Point products.I've done it several time using the dowel rod method (can anyone here tell us how many thousanths of an inch a ball point pen mark is or how far the measurement changes from the angle of the pen when marked?) and it was such a PITA and so inconsistant that I choose to use modern technology. I even marked the dowel rod by using a single edge razor against the muzzle and then cutting out the dowel between the marks to make it easier to measure. If HC is getting consistancy with that method it because of one of the following reasons:
Do us a favor, try HC's method 18 times and come back and tell us how consistant that was, shouldn't take but about 4 or 5 hours.  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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I use a Sinclair tool to determine COAL. If accuracy is not important to you then use the dowel rod method. The Sinclair is easy to use and you will get completely repeatable readings if you use it properly, meaning that if you are not careful when you put the bullet against the lands you will get different readings. Totally repeatable and accurate readings are not possible with a dowel rod unless anything to the right of the decimal point does not concern you. Jim 99% of the democrats give the rest a bad name. "O" = zero NRA life member | |||
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For those of you who poo poo the dowel method I have a question... Do you always find that the first COAL that you derived fron the stone point or sinclair method was the most accurate COAL for your rifle? Becuase if it's not? then exactly where you start is irrelevant. The frist COAL you start with is just that a starting point to find the most accurate load. All you need to be is close..then you adjust from there. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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That is the truth, there still needs to be a Seating Adjustment. However, it is nice to get an "accurate" reading and it can be done as Mike and I have outlined. --- On the other hand, the D-J Average managed to hit 11866 this past Thursday. Perhaps buyers stimulated the economy enough by tossing away good money on a totally useless "thingy" that it got the Stock Market going wide open. | |||
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Mike, I didn't say there was anything wrong with some other method of determining your starting point. I just require a little more precision. I have in the past shot a lot of benchrest and for that need to know exactly how far off the lands I am. For a sporting rifle application the dowel rod or cleaning rod or whatever else one wants to use will work just fine. I didn't mean to imply that it wouldn't work, just that the precision is lacking. 99% of the democrats give the rest a bad name. "O" = zero NRA life member | |||
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Not trying to split hairs here but .004 and 0.4 is .396 apart. .004 is four thousands and .4 is four tenths. The difference is between 3.727 and 3.733 is .006 btw. | |||
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Hey Guy's' Sorry I've been so long getting back. Everyone has been very helpful with their suggestions, and I appreciate all the input. Since I posted, I decided to go with what I had.I took .005" off the average and came up with 3.723" as my seating depth. Now I have a new problem! I backed the crimping shoulder out and gradually seated the bullet down to 3.723" and locked it in. I checked the measurement after seating each bullet and came up with different seating depths with all the cartridges except for a few. I fiddled a little with the seater to no avail. I then used my comparator and 284" bushing and started checking the bullet length. AH HA, THERE was an .001" to .0025" difference in some of the bullets, some longer some shorter. I called Hornady and was told there is a manufacturing tolerance of .0015" to .002" on those particular bullets. One of the cartridges I loaded was .004" off. What the hell!! The tech at Hornady told me this was normal and I could go with it with no problem. When I used to load a lot back in the sixty's all I did was clean the primer pockets and seat the bullets either to the cannelure or the OAL given in the loading manuals. By the way, I had very good results. I guess I've been disillusioned thinking reloading is an exact science by reading too many books. Am I expecting to much? Thanks Bob | |||
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Mike-- You are spot on about the measurement being a place to start, so whether the dowel, a smoked bullet, or a Stoney Point, it doesn't matter. You (or at least I am) are going to load your test rounds at varying degrees of bullet jump until you find the sweet spot. So--why do we get so exercised over the tool used? An old pilot, not a bold pilot, aka "the pig murdering fool" | |||
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Hornady claims a + 0.002" max tolerance on this bullet? If so and the bullet is to blame for variations there should only be a difference in COL to ogive of "dead nuts" on to 0.002" greater. I don`t see where the 0.004" came from. BTW was the reported variation in the bullet from the base of the bullet to the ogive? It may not mean anything in the real world as your die seats off the ogive to begin with and any lenght variation should be reduced depending on how far from the base line you are. I also would look at the seating cup on your die. Check for contact with the bullet tip instead of the jacketed part of the bullet. The tips on Hornady SSTs and Nosler Ballistic Tips have bottomed out in my seaters in a case or two because of their long thin shape. This will screw up your OAL to ogive measurement big time if it is happening. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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No HC wrote
Sometimes (but not as often as with the Stoney Point)  Dustoffer wrote
Does to me, I like to be as close to accurate as possible. The Stoney Point is so easy to use that I check the bullet every loading and can follow throat erosion, usually about .005" every 20 or so rounds. Bob jr wrote
Hey Bob, I use an RCBS Gold Medal Seating Die with the bullet load on the side and the micrometer on top. After each seating I reach up and back the seater up .005" or so and seat the bullet. I then adjust each bullet in to seat to the exact same comparator reading. All bullets will vary and if you don't back the seater up then some will be seated to a different length from the base to the ogive. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Hey Bob jr., Apparently I wasted my time responding to your question, because it is obvious you never even bothered to click on the link I posted for you. The answer for your new problem is there. But..., now I'd encourage you to just keep beating yourself over the head with the "thingy". And to help in that reguard, I'll go back and "Edit Out" the Link so you don't have to concern yourself with how to totally avoid the new problem. | |||
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Why don't you hold your breath and stamp your feet? 99% of the democrats give the rest a bad name. "O" = zero NRA life member | |||
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HC, if you use the "dowel method", aren't you assuming that from the datum line of the bullet and the tip is always exactly the same distance. I use the Stoney "thingy" and I do get small varying differences but not over + - .001. And here's my link to the Stoney Point "thingy"  Back to the still. Spelling, I don't need no stinkin spelling The older I get, the better I was. | |||
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Bill, I will probably not explain this correctly but in the dowel method you redo the measurment for each bullet so therefore you have the sepcifc COAL for that bullet touching the lands... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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That does look like I was throwing a tantrum.Actually just disgusted. His 2nd problem would never have occurred if he had just clicked on the link and did a bit of reading. Doesn't matter now though. --- Hey Bill Mc, No, the Method I recommend uses a single "Test Bullet or Set-Up Bullet". You use it to locate the Overall Cartridge Length(OCL) for it and then you immediately convert it to Overall Die Length(ODL). When you do the conversion to ODL, all Seating Depths (for that box of Bullets) are then done in relation to the Ogive, not the Tip. Glad to hear you have good luck with the "thingy". Perhaps it has something to do with taking the readings after visiting the still.  | |||
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Bob, The stoney point gauge and Hot Core's dowel both work. We are not in a perfect world and you could not tell any difference on a blind test with bullets set up either way. Our shoulders, eyes, nerves and trigger fingers aren't calibrated well enough to know the difference. I personally like the stoney point tool but I loaded successfully for many years before I got one. | |||
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Hey Hot Core Sorry if I wasted your time or offended you, that certainly wasn't my intension. Maybe I should have explained what I was going to do in my last post. I intend to use your method in my next batch and compare the differences. Instead of using one dowel I'll probably use two utilizing each end to take four readings. The link you posted has already been printed out, three hole punched, covered in page savers and put in my reloading folder. At time I was interested in OAL and neglected to read the part about bullet seating. By the time I got to seating the bullets and having trouble, I completely forgot about the article from you on that subject. Bob | |||
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Good one Bob, you are going to fit right in here. Hey, HC, here's a new "thingy" for you http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?s...44&SugSellID=5643607 Here's a tip, the Stoney Point will work great for inserting and holding the bullet in place. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Hey Bob, I'll just say that is pretty sneaky and sure "ruins" a disgusted mood. Will also agree with:
--- Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky!!! Now I need to go un-kick a few cats. | |||
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