Doc: That is a SUPERB gruping! I've had pretty good luck with my rifles and handloads. Attached is an unaltered Mod 70 Classic in 375 H&H and Swift A Frame 300gr handloads. The rifle was one of the very first ones Winchester produced Classic CRFs. It's mostly a 1/2" shooter, but about every third group or so I get results as attached. jorge

Jorge:
With groups like that I might start talking nicer about Elk hunters from now on.

Jorge,

that is an awsome group. If I could do that at 100 yards consistently, I'd be a happy guy.

@all

This is one of my normal groups as 109 yards (100m) with my hunting Rifle in caliber 10,3x60R (aka 450/400 2 1/8 in BPE).

3 shots from the benchrest:
Cases: Thun
Bullet: SWISS Solids Gian-Marchet® „Original“ caliber .413 254 Grains
Primers: Rottweil R5333
Load: R903 71.0 grains
MV = measured 2'600 fps

Target:
Target


Good shooting and good hunting
Collani

One holer: Some of my good friends are elk hunters. What gave you that idea? jorge

Jorge:
It seems over the past twenty years that the Elk hunting community has leaned toward lighter weight rifles and larger and larger calibers that go faster and faster. It is very amusing to me to watch these individuals at the range try and sight these small cannons in. What I am saying and why I always seem to be giving the Elk hunters a hard time. I believe as a group here in the U.S. they are the most overgunned and least accurate shooters. Ok Elk hunters my opinion can be changed--show me what you've got.
Try this. Once you are sighted in take a piece of plain 8-1/2" X 11" paper--typing paper and place an orage aiming dot onto the paper. Now not using the concrete bench at 100 yards place this target at 300 yards and fire 5 shots from a natural hunting stance/position i.e. sitting,prone,rest over the hood of the pickup, whatever your choice. Then move this same exact target to 200 yards and give me 5 more shots. Then post the results here on the forum. Your bunch blow about the 400,500,600 yard shots that are made so this test should be a no-brainer.
Jorge, your 375 group is very impressive and my hat is off to you. It amazes me how tight some of the 416's print also. But can you show me 5 or 10 targets from this same rifle that look like the one you posted?

"Your bunch?" Are you trying to bait me? Nowhere in the four plus years of mine on this forum have I extolled the virtues of shooting at ANYTHING much past 350 yards. My idea of a good elk rifle is a 300 mag ( I use a Weatherby but any 300 Mag will do) and were I to go elk hunting I would have to have an absolutely rock solid rest before I tried to pick off an elk much past 300. I would never consider taking a shot at the yardage you mentioned and I would never consider taking a 375 so where you obtained that idea I'll never know.
The furthest I've shot (and killed) big game was a doe at a measured 374 yards from a perfect rest and no wind conditions. I've hunted enough to know my limitations and I also have standards, like I don't shoot deer with 22s for example and I think a 270 is too light for elk.

No I don't have "five or ten" targets, that's bordering ont eh anal retentive (why would I anyway I'm not a paper puncher) jorge

Jorge:
I found your answer regarding not using the .375 for elk interesting. Why not?
I fully understand your comment about not being a paper puncher--many shooter/hunter aren't either. So why post one "paper punched" three shot group? One target is meaningless, so how do you shoot and others shoot the rest of the time?
I'm not trying to start anything. I'm very curious as I see numerous three shot groups posted here. Being a reloader and "paper puncher" I guess I just don't get all the ohhing and ahhing over some guy who posts one decent three shot group. And Jorge, my congratuations on your comment about knowing your abilities and limitations about realistic hunting distances. I have little doubt I would have one ragged three shot group in my vitals if I were your 300 yard target.

Care to comment on the "your bunch" monicker or using 22s for dee? As far as the 375 H&H for elk, it's a bit overguned and at the ranges some elk can be taken, I like better trajectory,a 338 or even better a 340 Weatherby . I have another target from 200 yards, but I guess you'll just ahve to take my word for it. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:

I guess I just don't get all the ohhing and ahhing over some guy who posts one decent three shot group.

Hey, thanks for pissin on my parade. I'm not a "paper puncher" at all. I have no interest in Benchrest or anything like it. But to call a group like what I did "decent" is, IMO, an understatement. I admitted that it was the first time I ever did it, and that it would likely never happen again, although I wish it would.

I posted it because it was a "personal victory" if you will. I wasn't looking for oooohing and aaaaahing. But I was thrilled that I did shoot that well ONCE. To me a "decent" group at 100 yards is an inch with 5 bullets for hunting under 350 yards.

I'd be happy to post the results of further testing from that rifle. I'll be at the range tomorrow again with the same group of guys. I suspect my groups may be from and inch and a half down to 1/4".

From reading your posts, I assume you must get groups like that all the time well beyond 100 yards, which I'm aware is certainly achievable. I'm also not opposed to shooting beyond 600 yards, so long as the shooter/rifle are capable.

For hunting, I can't see the need to continue punching more bullets, (like 5 shot groups on a regular basis) just to see how a load will print. I've never needed more than one shot at any animal. Maybe if I was a paper puncher I could appreciate 4-5-6+ shot groups but that's not my thing. Waste of bullets and bbl life as I see it.

I'll post pics for you tomorrow evening after I see what the same rifle does, regardless of how good or bad they are. I'm "brave" enough.

The "your bunch" broad brushing to include every and all elk hunters. Unfair of course. I totally believe you about your targets. Us anal paper punchers keep every target we ever shot and a library of data to go along with each target. You and I enjoy the same sport--we do however seem to have different agendas and beliefs and persue our sport in a different manner. You have learned that I am for the most part a meat hunter and you find my use of small caliber projectiles to kill deer goes against your cloth. I have learned you are a trophy hunter who wastes meat by shooting game through the shoulder and pay to have others field dress,pack out, and process your game,which I find distastfull.
To answer your question regarding .22 or .17 for deer. I archery hunt virtually daily during the season. I pass up what you might drool over as a trophy class animal. I pass them up as I believe these to be the "seed" for a healthy population. Yes, yes I'm all for conservation and save the Trophies for Jorge to shoot. So, when rifle season rolls around it just is no big deal to get within bow range distances with the rifle. So why use anything bigger that what is required? You pop them in the head and they do the dead cockroach.
I must admit-I was surprised to see those "premium" bullets put it in there like that.

Doc:
Thank you for your comments. Many on this forum seem quick to distance themselves from the "paperpunchers". When we see groups like yours we are extremely happy for you. However I then ask why can't you do the same thing on a regular basis? Something seems to be missing here. Why stop or settle for such a group once in a blue moon? There are many punchers here that are more than willing to help you achieve a drawer full of such groups.

Nice shootin' Doc!

Doc,
Very nice group...I'm sure your rifle's a keeper now!!

What's the weight of the rifle with the #4 barrel? A good solid 8#s without scope?

I did that once and only once (in the 70's) with a factory Sako rifle 7mag. and some Hornady handloads.

Cool looking rifle..congrats.

one-holer; I think Doc's group was commendable and your attitude here and elsewhere is very condecending. Sure I keep one or two targets and in fact accomplish tight gropus on a regular basis but what is the point of keeping all those targets as long as I know that I can hit where I aim? Surely not to validate to you? You have a tendency to put words (or in this case type) in one's mouth and your opinions are just that, opinions. Yes I'm a trophy hunter but I waste no meat, but rather rely on what I believe is the best shot to quickly anchor and animal, that being the shoulder of course. I always look at self described "meat hunters" with a "weather eye" anyway. It just rings well, "phony" in a land of plenty like the USA, kind of like using the word "harvest" instead of "kill." I'm sure your family would not starve were you not to provide venison for the table. Passing up mature animals is unsound game management and shooting them with 17s or 22s is bordering on illegal and I'll venture to say the majority of posters here consider it an unethical practice.

Moreover, a buck or bull that is well past his prime but sports a good set of antlers is precisely the animal you want to cull from the population, his "seed" has already been propagated many times over. I've taken and field dressed, hauled out and butchered my share of animals,and frankly I don't consider that as some kind of "badge of honor" that's more of that phony "I'm a mountain man" bs that often-times permeates these forums.

I hunt for the thrill of the hunt and the chance to be out of doors. You seem to eschew those of us who somehow enjoy and are lucky enough to trophy hunt. You're not one of those hate-the rich democrats are you? By the way I'm in the service so everybody KNOWS I'm not rich. why can't you just congratulate and thank him for sharing it with us instead of giving us the business with all your backhanded comments? jorge

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Doc:
However I then ask why can't you do the same thing on a regular basis? Something seems to be missing here.

That is what I'd like to know!! I don't think there's anything missing at all. I can get regular 1/2" groups all the time, but since this was my first "tight" group, I thought I'd post it.

If I knew the secret to repeatability with groups this small, I'd post targets weekly. My reloading technique has changed only recently, in the last year or so, and since that time, this is the first "one-holer" I've achieved. Now that said, I've only been to the range about 8 times in the last year, so I think the new stuff I'm doing is working. I have not had a chance to retest the load yet, that will happen tomorrow.

I don't mind paper punchers at all. I'm good with that if one wishes to do so.

quote:

Why stop or settle for such a group once in a blue moon? There are many punchers here that are more than willing to help you achieve a drawer full of such groups.

First, I never stopped there or settled for such a group ONCE. Never said that.

Tell all the paper punchers I'm all ears and await the secrets to achieve a drawer full of such groups. But tell them all to hurry, I leave in 2 weeks.

quote:

I have learned you are a trophy hunter who wastes meat by shooting game through the shoulder and pay to have others field dress,pack out, and process your game,which I find distastfull.

I realize you are addressing Jorge here but do you feel the same way about someone who is confined to a wheelchair? Or perhaps, someone who has a joint disability where their ambulation is limited?

I have to tell you, I do very much enjoy elk meat and venison. We practically live on it, but I shoot deer in the shoulder all the time. I once compared just how much meat was "wasted" on the grill and quite frankly, it wasn't much. At best 2-3 bites from the shoulder of a 200lb buck on the hoof.

I honestly do not see why this whole "meat" thing is such an issue with so many people. Has anyone really taken the time to weigh how much meat is lost with a shoulder shot on a deer? What is it, maybe a couple or 3 ounces? 6 maybe?

Oh, feel free to put me on stand over one of those "drooler" trophies. I bowhunt with a passion myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Sendero:

What's the weight of the rifle with the #4 barrel? A good solid 8#s without scope?

I do not know. Never weighed it. I guess I could go do that now...

about 9 pounds.

Doc & Jorge:
Doc pardon me but I did tell you that you had a nice group. I know the excitement you experience when you shoot such a group. What I don't understand is why this is such a sporadic thing for many shooters? I respect your bravery for posting the results of your next outing good or bad. This type of reality is how everyone can learn and improve. Jorge shooting deer with a rimfire is illegal as hell even where I live. I feed these guys all year long and they eat my crops (even your trophies)so I'm going to "kill" the bastards as I see fit during the "legal" season. As far as the shoulder thing this is merely banter between Jorge and me. I always make jerky out of the shoulder meat myself. Doc As far as the wheel chair scenerio. So you want to play the sympathy card and say its ok to pop some animal in the ass just because some guy doesn't have legs--give me a break. He or she can pass up the ass shot and go home empty handed and come back another day. Thats why they call it "hunting" not "ass shooting"

That is a group to be proud of. The best groups I got with my 300 SAUM and 180 TSX is with H4350EXT with 62.5 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Doc As far as the wheel chair scenerio. So you want to play the sympathy card and say its ok to pop some animal in the ass just because some guy doesn't have legs--give me a break. He or she can pass up the ass shot and go home empty handed and come back another day. Thats why they call it "hunting" not "ass shooting"

I was specifically referring to you stating the distasteful portion of your post:

quote:

...pay to have others field dress,pack out, and process your game,which I find distastfull

I'm not advising any ass shots, not sure where you came up with that. I'm trying to understand why the content of your quote is distasteful to have someone else help with the game once it's down.

...and you can be confined to a wheelchair and still have legs. Sympathy card, no. Just wasn't sure where you're coming from on the distasteful thing. There's times I'd give plenty of money for some help with my downed game. And I usually pay a butcher to process the meat too, I don't have anywhere to do it.

This goes back to the thread Jorge had on bullets that kill quickly and humanely. Here Jorge promotes shoulder shots, and he goes on to say he has others pack the meat out. Yes, I find shoulder shots as distastful as Jorge finds using small calibers distastefull.
Should you care to go back to Jorges thread and look--some would say distastefull but I say rather amusing that a mans name that is pronounced whore-hay is bashing and changing my call sign from one-holer to one-orrifice.
Doc--I look forward to seeing your next group of targets when you post them. If you would like any help or advice shooting more of the type of groups you posted then ask.

one -holer I think it was a combanation of all of those,mostly luck.A buddy that shoots with me every tuesday was spoting for me,the first shot I missed the target ring about 2 inches,so I told him I would shoot for a group,second shot he said damn,third shot he said damn,damn,thier in the same hole.Of course we dropped everything and walked out to see and sure enough it was the best group I had gotten at 300 yds.



Doc that sure is an impressive group,am courious have you tried any factory loads in your rifle?The reason I asked is that a couple months ago a fellow was watching me shoot my 30/06 rem and decided he had to have it.He traded me a browning 7 mag for it and said that it would shoot one hole groups @ 100yds,didn't take it all that serious but went and traded with him.he gave me part of a box of hornady custom 162 gr sst.Went by his house to pick up the browning and it had a boss on it and he told me what setting to set it on for that bullet,took it to the range the next time took me 4 shots to zero and then shot a 3-shot group.Now I can't claim he was B_S me.

Owensby:
These are fantastic. The other groups not bad either--but that other is just crazy. You just have to shake your head. Maybe you need to give all of us lessons. Anybody out there have stuff like this? Any 300 plus yard groups to ponder.

I just get lucky sometimes,I do have a edge on most,I get to shoot one to three days a week except during hunting season,You haven't seen any of my worst groups,some of them really take the cake.
As I said that was the first one holer I have gotten at 300 and I was thrilled just like doc was.
Have shot a good many at 100 but I think if you shoot as much as I do you have to have some good groups.What impressed me with Doc's the most it looks like they really went in the same hole.
Last year I shot 2 three inch groups @300 with a muzzle loader,if and when I get one smaller I will post it.Now to me that will really be doing something.
Hope all you fellows have as much fun shooting as I do.

Okay, one-holer, enough is enough.
Where are your targets?
Here is what I will say about myself: I hunt, I shoot pigs in the head and whitetails in the ribs, because either way there is VERY little waste. And I cut the heads off pigs only because I don't know anyone that makes tamales any more.
What I kill I skin, quarter, ice down, bring home and process myself, with the exception of paying someone to mix, season and smoke the sausages. (Used to do that as well, but found out there are those better at it than I am. Not too proud to admit that, either.)

The one elk I was fortunate enough to take was packed off the side of the mountain by myself and the friend who was gracious enough to take me on a guided hunt for absolutely nothing. There are FEW friends in this world like that, and I am honored he chooses to call me one of his... It was shot with an out of the box Remington BDL in .270 that shoots better than I can, most days. Oh, and for whatever it is worth, the bull was shot in the lungs and heart. NOT THE SHOULDER!

Lastly, we that hunt shoot (by and large) factory rifles with factory chambers, MAYBE an after-market trigger, and scopes that are possibly more magnification than necessary. Even so, the crosshairs will totally cover a 1" dot @ 100 yards if set at anything less than about 7X. They certainly are NOT 20+ pound rail guns with bench rest barrels, chambers cut with a one-use only reamer, too tight a neck for use in the field, and triggers that break at 1-3 ounces. Need I go on?

I will say it again: you are an opinionated sap. And, for my money, a pompous one at that. You, and others like yourself, that belittle others' successes to make yourselves feel better, make me tired.

"People all wrapped up in themselves make awfully small packages." Anonymous

And Doc, if our paths ever cross, I would consider it a privilege to help you dress and pack out whatever you shoot.

Guys stop it already! Owensby, you said something you don't hear very often. You should see my bad groups. It amazes me (I'm talking about me here) that one session they may look like Docs group and another on the same bench, same gun, same load, everything turns to mud. Gun,load, shooter who knows. Next time everything will be back fine. Some of those good worst targets would be humerous.
Anyone runs across my X-wife you can ask her where my targets are.
Doubless: The last time I checked my threads I have offered to help any and all who wish to shoot more groups into the same hole. All I have heard you do is sit back and talk trash. And in the future just call me an asshole it sounds a lot less "gay".
Just for the record you do not need rail guns, 40 pound bench rifles, tight necks, special secret reamers etc. to place your shots into the same hole. You place one hole shots into the same catagory as Santa Clause, or the Easter Bunny. Doubless I can not blame you for being. You remind me of a bitchy old woman. I would be grumpy and sour also if I was still waiting for that (one) 3 shot group of a life time.
So enough of this shit. This is supposed to be a shooting forum not a tampon convention.

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
If you would like any help or advice shooting more of the type of groups you posted then ask.

I DID!!! I'm all ears!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
And Doc, if our paths ever cross, I would consider it a privilege to help you dress and pack out whatever you shoot.

Hey thanks! Very kind words. I'll be in and around Casper Wyoming for the antelope opener, the 25th-1st of October. But my brother and friend, Les, will be with me.

However, I'll be in and around Cortez Colorado for the second season mulie/elk combo. I'll be by myself for the most part.

Norm and I are heading to the range again at about 130pm today, however, it's supposed to be hot, 88-90 degrees. ( I hate hot weather ).

Believe it or not I'm really enjoying this thread. One-holer the "one orifice" was very much tongue-in-cheek and to be frank, I forgot even why I wrote it and I don't have the time or inkling to go back and read why. I also must take exception to your {sic} ass-shooting comment. Sometimes that's all you get and if I have a rifle/caliber that's up to the task, I'll take it. Matter of fact a bushbuck I just recently took although not exactly a "texas heart shot," it was at a poor going away quatering shot but I felt confident the caliber at hand would rake through to the vitals whcih it did. I find it downright asinine to always for the animal to turn sideways. THe other day I was watching one of the many hunting shows on TV where the host had a perfect head on chest shot at a deer yet he said "wait until he turns sideways it's not ethical to shoot him in the chest." THAT is pure BS! THere is nothing wrong with shooting a deer or any other animal for that matter in the chest. ANd I still would like to know why you find it unethical to have someone else drag the kill out for you, particularly if they also benefit from it like employment for instance. WHore-hey.

PS: Just for you OH, here's a 200 yard group from two of my rifles. The one up top is the 375 H&H and the one on the bottom is a 300 H&H. I've yet to duplicate it again at that range for the 375, but then again, I've only tried it twice since and "all it gave me were 1.5" groups which is more than enough for me and a 375.

quote:

Anyone runs across my X-wife you can ask her where my targets are.

How convenient... Somebody else "lost" all your targets...

The way I see it, if you are that good a shot, just go out, rip off a handful of "groups of a lifetime", post them and show us where all your self-proclaimed expertise comes from.

You have insulted Jorge, Doc, Atkinson and others in this and other threads, and what you said about "ass shots" personally offended me. I don't understand why you feel you have to say what you do...

And what part of "I don't talk that way" is so difficult for you to comprehend?

In short, I don't appreciate your "know it all" attitude, and I am not alone in that view.

OK Doubless: I don't have a scanner. So give me your mailing address and tell me how many you would like to have. Would you like .17,.22,6mm,25,.30,or ..338 targets? How many shots would you like 10,20,50 shot groups. Just let me know so you can stop bleeding in your panties. If it would make you feel better go say a prayer for me and maybe I will be forgiven.
Jorge: I have actually been enjoying this myself. We should probably go somewhere else to piss though. I'm sure others are getting tired. If you went to the Academy in Colorado Springs we may have been almost neighbors.
Jorge:
Ah-The texas heart shot. Totally different than an ass shot. And if you field dress your animal African style you get all four quarters and the back strap and don't even have to worry what the inside of the body cavity looks like. Some times you gotta do what you gotta do.

You're asking me if I went to the AIR FORCE academy? Now you've really done it. I'm a tailhook naval aviator buddy not that social flying club they have other there. jorge

Ok, guys, Norm is here. We're heading out. I promise to post targets tonight or tomorrow.

OK-Jorge:
My ass sits many an hour on commercial airlines each year. So let me change the subject off of Elk hunters and let me tell you what I think about naval aviators who become civilian pilots.
The most God awfull hard/rough landers in the business. You always know when an Air Force pilot puts it down. Its as smooth as a babies ass. I will try and behave before I get sent to the forum office for discipline.

Doc: Super group there with the 7mm Remington Magnum!
Congratulations are very much in order to you and I extend them!
Be not overwhelmed or even concerned by the many and varied types of naysayers on this board!
I have seen countless postings by the naysayers and contraries that time and again espouse that what YOU DID simply CAN NOT be done by a Remington Rifle and especially can not be done with a Remington Rifle that has a Leupold scope affixed to it!
I also shoot a Remington Rifle (Model 700 Classic in caliber 7mm Remington Magnum) with a Leupold 3.5x10 scope on it.
I say balderdash to the numerous Leupold and Remington naysayers on this board - and I will take this opportunity to further denigrate them by relaying the numeric results from the last three sight in verifications I have done with my Remington/Leupold Elk/Bear Rifle.
These are three shot groups done at 100 yards using 160 gr. Nosler Partition bullets: .522", .541" and .510"!
Yes you are right my groups do not compare with the wonderful target you shot but they are still very fine examples of the shooting a person can do with Hunting bullets, a Hunting type scope and Hunting bullets designed (and proven by me!) to quickly kill Elk and Bear!
I have another Remington/Leupold combo that I have been using for three going on four full seasons of Deer/Antelope/Coyote Hunting and it is splendidly accurate as well (to further debunk, denigrate and denounce the Remington/Leupold bashers while I am at it!). It is a Remington 700 Sendero in caliber 270 Winchester with a Leupold 8.5x25x40mm variable scope on it. By the way I shoot the fine Nosler 130 gr. Ballistic Tips in this Rifle for its uses on game. This Rifle is so pleasingly accurate and consistent that it has quickly earned a place of highest favor among my hoarde of Big and Medium Game Rifles!
Again congratulations on the splendid grouping you and your Remington/Leupold rig are responsible for!
Long live Remington!
Long live Leupold!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: The Remington/Leupold bashers have been a little quiet lately and maybe this posting will shake some of them out of the trees and from under the rocks - so I can give them another round of several "good and proper spankings" publicly!!!

one -holer we all have good days and bad.I had a pretty good one this morning with 3 rifles,2-one holers,and 2 fiveshot groups that measuded right at an inch.What I was doing is shooting up some old reloads so I could use the brass.I only have 4 rifles that shoot the same load all the time,3 muzzleloaders and a rem 7/08.All the others I try something new in them weekly,I guess I am searching for the ulimate load,but I really injoy trying different loads ,col,primers and etc.I don't have any custom rifles<I just try to see what I can get out of a factory rifle,with only triger adjustment or some has been bedded.
Below is some groups I have saved using 2 of my muzzle loaders,(have posted the pic before in the muzzleloading forum)

Owensby: Finally--the good, the bad, and the ugly. Those groups that always seem to have 4 in and one out get me. The trouble is often me. I look and see one little hole forming and I start dreaming about the hole and wind up kicking the last shot out. I like to look at the groups with 1/2 grain of powder on either side plus and then minus shot into the same group to see what happens over time. I like the prairie dog. Owensby I just gotta ask--that lower right target impact looks like it was shot at 50 yards due to the bullet impact in relation to the center of the sticker. Come on fess up. Now do you have any horrible ones. Good loads gone bad. Bad day at the range. What the devil happened and then what was the cause?

Notice varmint guy doesn't call himself bear guy,elk guy, or moose guy. The reason he can shoot this well is because he is a "varmint guy"

OH: I can teach anybody (even a non-shoulder-shooting, 700 totin' meat hunter) to land a plane on a runway, all we get is about 150' and a pitching deck at that. BTW, most airlines prefer Naval Aviators and just how can you tell whose flying anyway? jorge

It's those carrier style landings or should I say controlled crash landings that give them away everytime.