Shot placement seems to be getting a lot of press here on the forum and rightly so. Reloading the right bullet for the right caliber at the right velocity is also a high priority item that at times I get a feeling is is being pushed back on the shelf.

Story time;

This really large doe (mule deer) is coming down this barren hill right at me at full gate. The first one hits her in the brisket at 60 yds. the next in the same place at 25 yds. She gets into a draw below me and continues on her way.Later we find her cooling out in a neighbooring hunters camp. I was than using the then wild cat 22 Varminter, later to become the 22-250. The shots were just where they should have been. The bullet was just too fragile for the velocity.

A large 4 point Mule deer buck is quartering toward me at 75 yds. in deep snow.I slam one just behind the shoulder but a little low going for the heart. There is no noticeable reaction but in about four bounds he comes to a stop in a small stand of quackies. As I'm lining him up for another shot he crumples. We approch, he gets up and my 14 year old partner dispatches him with a 30-30 in the neck. The shot I hit him with my 6mm X.270 was right where it should have been but it never entered farther than 2" or so an created a horrible wound. The bullet was a 105gr semi pointed popular manufacture. The same day I wounded a couple of Elk with the same combination and with well placed shots.

I have a large mulie rack on the wall that I shot with a store bought 120gr bullet in my 25-06 . The deer was almost a perfect heart shot had the bullet entered the body. We did not find him for about 7 hrs. He was still alive with one hell of a surface wound.

I'm relaying this in the hope that there will be an understanding that as the caliber goes down and the impact velocity goes up bullet construction becomes increasingly important.Yes good shot placement is needed but the bullet has to arrive there with the right stuff. When reloading for game make sure caliber, bullet and velocity at the intended range are right.I hope that someone finds these embaracing stories enlightening roger

Hey Santa Claus good buddy. Am I seeing things or did you just start a topic on heavy recoiling guns and how some small bore is the nuts?

Yep

Head on or quartering shots to me do not seem to be proper shot placement for light for caliber bullets. If you think a quartering shot shot to low for the heart is good placement I would think one would have to study the vitals on a deer a bit more.

One shot does not in my opinon make or break a bullet. I have seen way to many things happen to bullets on the way to target to draw concluesions on one shot. I have seen very good 180 gr 30 cal bullets hit brush and leave large entery wounds.
I saw a deer shot that was facing the shooter 150 gr 30-06 at 2700 at the shot the deer dropped and the got up and ran. We finily killed it a hr later the bullet went in between the shoulder and the rib gage bullets fault hell no just a unlucky shot angle.

I have seen hunderds of deer shot with everything from 22rfs to 45 cal DG rifles.

IF you place a bullet into the heart and lungs of a deer it is going to die. Some run a ways some drop in there tracks. You would think a 416 300 gr at 2600 plus should drop them. Well last year a perfect side to side middle of the rib gage hit 416 cal hole going in a 2 in plus hole going out and it still ran 45 yards.

One off the greatest myths or sayings of hunting is Yep shot him right in the lungs and I still didn't find him. Meaning I missed or gut shot or didn't have enough tracking skills to find him.

I had something unusual happen this past season along the subject of shot placement.

A buddy took me to a farm that hadn't allowed hunting for about 4 years.
The couple owning it (as a country place outside their city home) had planted about 40 acres of lawn turf (not for sod...just because it looked nice).
I had never seen so many deer outside a petting zoo, even at 2 in the afternoon (during hunting season).

My buddy insisted we get into our stands early (4:30 am), even though shooting light wasn't until after 6 am.

By 5 am I could start to make out shapes in the field, and for the next hour I watched a nice 8 point about 40 yards from me.
It dawned on me that this was one of the few times in my hunting life that I had all the time in world for a perfect shot.

I created a nice bench rest with my sweater (on the railing of the platform stand), and aimed for where I thought the heart was (and being a surgeon I should have a reasonable idea).

When legal shooting light came I sloowly squeezed the trigger, and the deer took off running....about 80 yards up a steep hill.
(35 Whelen AI, Swift 250 grain A-frame, 2500 fps).

When I dressed it out, the bullet had traveled through both the right and left ventricles of the heart, and left a thumb size hole through each. It appeared that at least 2/3 of the deers total blood volume was in the mediastinum.

That was my most "perfect" shot placement ever, and the deer still ran 80 yards uphill.
Sometimes they are just hard to knock down.

Garrett

Unless you break both shoulders and or spine them they can and do run with the heart and lungs both shot out.

My dad was an expert shot with his old Winchester 30/30. He always shot deer in the neck. Elk the same thing. Hang a round in the neck and down they go. Blowing out the guts, shooting to far back, and a million other things just isn't placing anything, just shooting at something. I have several friends in western Colorado that hunt Deer and Elk with .243 and never walk over 50 yards to get them, how? With 100 grains placed in the neck. My dad passed on his "shoot for a small place". This year My scope was messed up and friend wanted me to go on his club with him on doe day. All I had to take was my iron sigted mini-14 which isn't the most accruacte anyway, so I took it. A big doe stepped out at about 100 yards and a neck shot with the .233 Remington corlok downed her or at least thought it was her. It turned out to be a spike. Dad started me out shooting at rocks about 6 inches in diameter and they were golf ball size before we were through @ 100 yards. A mule deer neck was easy to hit after that. But people who didn't grow up in Western Colorado in the 60s would never understand the complete freedom we had. I had a 100 mile square area to hunt in, filled with monster deer and no out of state hunters ruining the land and leaving thier trash behind. You would drive all day and never see anothe rperson except maybe a local rancher. Greed now rules the range. But shoot as you will and how you will and with what you want. I know what works, Been there done that in complete freedom. Shot placement, is what it is all about. of course you should really leard how to shoot first!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Savage99:
Hey Santa Claus good buddy. Am I seeing things or did you just start a topic on heavy recoiling guns and how some small bore is the nuts?QUOTE]

Actually the thread does not advocate small bores it indicates how missinformation and group mania can cause folks to get heavey recoiling rifles they have a hard time with when genteler rifles will do the job. "Small bores being the nuts" is the pendulem swinging to far in the opposite direction but with proper thought and execution they can handle the job.

If some folks can accurately use a large magnum and enjoy it than I see no problem there. When they are lead to believe that they absolutly need that kick and boomer even thou it hurts them that's another story.

This thread deals with shot placement and tailoring your loads to adequately getting the job done. In doing that a person must consider that for what ever caliber they are useing, Big or Small, bullet selection with respect to velocity is important.

Example:

The 25-35 with it's 87 gr. bullet did a good job on deer at 25 ft. But if you took that same same bullet and fully loaded it in a 25-06 IMP at 25 ft. you are going to have problems.That same 25-06 IMP with some of today's premium bullets is a fantastic meat gatherer.

In all my original examples I firmly believe that had I been using a 7mm cal. 154 gr. 60s era conventional bullet moving about 2650fps everyone of those animals would have dropped within 50 feet.

I also lived in Grand Junction Colorado in the 60s and hitting a deer every time in the neck ain't always easy especially if they're moving pretty fast. Also putting a bullet through the neck without hitting anything vital is a reality.The neck bone (spine) and jugular are not always hit. roger

You right if one is not willing or capable of making or waiting for the perfect shot placement.

One should not be using bullets or calibers that are not capable driving the bullet into the vitals from the angles one is shooting them at.

The 22 short rf is more then capable of killing a deer but I would not use it during the regular gun season because shots at legal deer are harder to come by.

But if I had the time and hunted with it like I do my bow with in a week I would have one very dead deer and be eating venison. With one shot.

Never lost a deer or Elk shot in the neck since 1952. Didn't do alot what we used to call the "Texas shot" you know 400 yards and wide open stuff. Have made bad shots and have missed of course and have at time applied the Texas shot on a monster. But when you are concealed in the first light of day and a 40 inch 6 point comes up a trail and you have a 100 yard shot to the neck he is down. Shot a many of them that way. Biggest one was 44 inches 7 on aside. Took three days to get him home. But we live in different times and different thinking and if people want to think the new way fine! But don't ever think us old timers didn't get it done with an old 30/30 and don't think we couldn't shoot. So much for the past, the best times of freedom in this country are gone anyway. Good shooting!

Terminal performance is at leat as important as shot placement. How a bullet expands, penetrates, the shock it creates and the bleeding caused by a sizeable, deep wound channel makes all the difference in the world in preventing stories like yours from happening.That's exactly why I hunt only with Barnes X and now the TSX. Eighteen one shot kills, not one going more than 50 yards, convinces me WHAT I shoot is just as important as how well.
I had a 130 gr X bullet penetrate the entire LENGTH of a sizeable northern buck shot facing head-on. He never even twitched much less leave tracks. And that with a 7/08! Some will say using premium bullets for deer is overkill. They are certainly entitled to that opinion. But I've proven that the deer I shoot at hang from my meat pole when I do. And that is the basis for MY opinion.

quote:

That was my most "perfect" shot placement ever, and the deer still ran 80 yards uphill.
Sometimes they are just hard to knock down.

Garrett

My father shot a nice Whitetail in an identical fashion with the same exact results! The 7 mag obliterated the bottom of the heart and "it sounded like a washing machine when I rolled it over."

That deer, too, ran 80-100 yards up a steep grade.

I suppose the moral is: shoot well, shoot with a big enough bullet, and shoot often!

Good luck this year.

friar

I don't know if it is moral but it is a fact of hunting if you lung heart shoot something it well very offten run aways after you shoot it.

If one wants every critter to drop it is tracks then spine or brain them. Even with broken shoulders and blown apart lungs and heart they have been know to travel.

There is a lot to be said about shooting them more the once.

I gave up beliveing in one shot kills a long time ago. On the biggest bucks I ever shot had a perfect broad side at 50 yard let her fly with my No.1 06 and thought to myself that is a dead deer. It ran about 20 yards and stop I wasn't going to shoot it again because I knew it was dead. But I dam its big and let another go behind the shoulder it took off and drop about another 20 yards. When I started looking it over I notice only one bullet hole. The frist one only took hair off its back. From that day on if they are still moving I shoot them again and again.

I load and hunt with a couple of '06's,a .308 Win, a 7x57, 7.65x53 and .338 win. I tend to use heavy for caliber loads, 154 and 173 gr. in the 7x57, 165 and 180 grain in the 06's, 180 gr. in the 7.65, and 250 gr. in the .338. I also go for medium velocity loads, 2300 fps in the 7.65, 2600 in the 7x57 etc.

I almost always go for a heart lung shot, although head shots on pigs are fairly common for me, and I have taken a couple of shoulder shots on large deer with a heavy bullet when I really felt I needed to anchor them. For me, not for everyone, the heart lung shot is most reliable. Although I shoot a lot, I'm just not comfortable with neck shots myself.

Long ago I developed the habit of checking that I have the right animal by scoping it's head and then running the view down the neck. When I see the neck swell to the shoulders I let the shot go quick.

What I noticed was that all of the animals hit in this spot dropped in their tracks. Now it's not always easy to do this as the animal may be far away or my aim not that steady and then I go for the much larger heart/lung area. The lightest load that I have used since the 50's was the 7mm RM/30-06

The below documents the neck/shoulder shot placement effectiveness.

"Roughly half of the deer shot (253 of 493, or 51.3 %) traveled less than 3 yards after being hit or simply dropped in their tracks. Of the instant incapacitation kills, 87.7 % (222/253) were definitely attributable to spinal or shoulder shots. Hit location is not known for the remaining 31 kills. Among the known hit locations, the mean distance traveled for clear spinal hits (52/222, or 23.4 %) was less than 1 yard. For shots that struck the shoulder (170/222, or 76.6 %), the mean distance traveled was 3 yards. Since the scapula lies directly over the neck / back junction it would be all but impossible to hit the shoulder without causing a paralyzing trauma to the spine (despite not directly damaging it) and the probability of causing serious trauma directly to the spine would be very high.

Roughly half the deer shot (240 of 493, or 48.7 %) ran a significant distance after being hit. Nearly all of these deer (221/240 or 92.1 %) were found dead; however 19 were discovered to be still alive, suffering from inadequate wounds (shot in the abdomen, legs, neck, etc.) and dispatched (a trained tracking dog was required to locate all of these deer). The distance traveled for those found dead was recorded, but no record was attempted for those which remained living since they pursued evasive paths in their escape. The mean distance traveled by deer that ran when hit (neglecting the 19) was 59 yards. No shot placement is known for 16 of the 240 kills that ran when hit. Those hit in the heart (14/224, or 6.3 %) traveled an average of 39 yards, those hit in the lungs (152/224, or 67.9 %) ran an average of 50 yards, and those struck in the abdomen (presumably hitting an artery or the liver, as opposed to only stomach and intestines) (58/224, or 25.9 %) ran an average of 69 yards."

link

quote:

But don't ever think us old timers didn't get it done with an old 30/30 and don't think we couldn't shoot. So much for the past, the best times of freedom in this country are gone anyway. Good shooting!

actually I consider the 30-30 and the standard bullets used for it a good combination of caliber, bullet and velocity. no quarrel there. roger

It's a great point, you always hear; "shot placement is everything". Really I see termianl perf. of the bullet & shot placement are equally important. If you have the best bullet ever designed & can't get it into the vitals, it has little use. Same for shot placement; shoot em in the right spot every time w/ a bullet that can't get into the vitals & destroy enough to bleed the animal out, & your accuracy is of little value.
Pdog, not all of us have the luxury to wait out the perfect shot. Nothing wrong w/ 1/4ing or head on shots if your bullet/cartridge is up to it. The more I hunt the more I see this as true, sometimes you have to take the shot you are given or you get no shot at all.

Just what I was saying.

But what bugs me is when people take questionable shots with questionable bullets and cailbers then go on to blame the bullet or caliber for their mistake.

Nothing wrong with 1/4 shots as long as the bullet is able to do it. Nothing wrong with texas heart shot as long as the bullet is able to do it.

But if you end up taking one with a lightly constucted bullet and your not happy the way it preformed don't be blaming the bullet or cailber.

IN my hunting experiences, I have lost one deer, and that was it being hit and diving into a swamp as the sun dropped, on the last day of the season. It was a real big buck, and it was hit in the chest broadside with a 300 Mag, and a 200 grain Sierra, in Federal Factory loaded ammo. It hit the ground on its nose, fur and blood all over the place and took off into the swamp. Looked for several hours and then came back the next morning to see if we could find it, no luck. This was in North Central Minnesota. distance was 100 yds.

Shot another buck in Wisconsin one time, on a quartering shot, and hit it behind the ribs, and it exited out the chest. Deer went 150 yds or so into the woods at a dead run. With Snow on the ground and it was only about 8 am, I just followed the blood trail and there it lay. 30/06 and a 180 grain factory load ( Remington).
Distance was 200 yds.

Since I have been using smaller bore cartridges, I have not had to do any tracking of deer like I did when I used a 30/06 or a 300 Mag. I have to profess, I do not know if it is because I just aim better and more confident in shot placement or what. Almost of the of the deer I have shot with 22/250s 223s, 243s 6mm Rem and 6.5 mm have almost all dropped instantly. Shot one deer with a 7 x 57 with a 170 grain round nose Sierra and it still went 50 yds.

So I am a big believer in shot placement, big believer most times in high sectional density and round nose bullets. I am a big believer in Ballistic tips at moderate velocity. I am a believer in 6.5 mm bullets, period! My usual deer loadings now are 6.5 mm with a 100 grain bullet at 3350 fps or so. Last three deer taken dropped instantly. but these are blacktail deer so they are only antelope sized.

Cheers
seafire

Hey sea fire hate to aruge with you but the MN buck you lost you belive it was it broad side in the chest. Because you never recoverd it you do not know where it was it for sure. You had lots of blood and hair but a non fatal hit can give you that. I have seen deer take a hit low below the heart and lungs blowing hair and meat blood all over the place. Then have to be tracked down and shot on the run. The same thing with a brisket shot. All it takes is one limb to send the bullet some place you do not want it.

I guess your opinon on high density bullet must be changeing as a 100 gr 6.5 isn't.

Shot the placement is important the less gun and less bullet makes it more so. Even with a heavey for caliber bullet and a bigger caliber gun one still has to drive the bullet into the vitals to make it work.

I find that a bullet that makes into the lungs and hearts then fragments well give you quicker kills then one that just punchs a hole through.

The key to this is making sure the bullet gets into the lungs and heart.

A prime case of this is a 120lb doe I shot last year with my sons 25-06 and 87 speer MV of 3420 this bullets comes apart on P dogs and really throws them in the air. I wanted to see what it would do on a deer. So I had a doe standing 167 lasered yards eating not knowing any body was around. I waited until she was broad side near side leg forward and but the bullet right behind the front leg into the lungs and heart about 5 inchs up from the bottom of the chest. The bullet did exctely what I thought it would do. Blew a big entance hole filled the heart and lungs with bullet and bone fragments from the rib it hit and dropped the deer in its tracks.

If I would have tryed for a 1/4 shot I would could have had trouble or a head on shot ect. I knew I was using a highly fragmenting bullet and waited just for the right time to pull the trigger. Work just as I thought it would.

As I well say again if you are using a light for cailber bullet ,a small cailber gun, bullet placement is all important. And if one can not wait for the perfect placement one should not be using them.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
A prime case of this is a 120lb doe I shot last year with my sons 25-06 and 87 speer MV of 3420 this bullets comes apart on P dogs and really throws them in the air. I wanted to see what it would do on a deer. So I had a doe standing 167 lasered yards eating not knowing any body was around. I waited until she was broad side near side leg forward and but the bullet right behind the front leg into the lungs and heart about 5 inchs up from the bottom of the chest. The bullet did exctely what I thought it would do. Blew a big entance hole filled the heart and lungs with bullet and bone fragments from the rib it hit and dropped the deer in its tracks.

I may agree with most of your words of wisdom but,pds, I consider the killing of that deer the way it happened to have a large degree of luck in it. Case in point;Had that been a lasered 67 yards, and you took the shot, the result might have been similar to that deer coming across the snow on the original post. The same result might have happened had you knicked a rib bone.

A single insident such as you are descibing surely should not be considered a president setter. Experimenting ,as you did, can and is fun but it could have ended up badly and in my youth I have been guilty of that.I too thought I knew all the answers but I have been learning a lot since then. roger

No degree of luck at all that rilfe shoots that load into 3/4 inch all day long. A good soild rest I could have shot the deer in the ear channel if I would have wanted to at the range.

My ability to make one shot to head or where ever I want with the proper rifle and conditions extends well past 167 yards.

If I wouldn't of hit the rib the bullet would have entered blew up and killed the deer with out the bone fragments. Wouldn't have been any quicker or slower.

If it has been 10 feet 10 yards 50 yards the results would have been the same a dead deer.


One only needs 2" or less of penetration to get into the lungs and heart of a deer broad side. There are very few bullets that well not blew through 2 inches of flesh not give a fatal blow to a deer. If one get in with only 3 inchs one destorys the nearest lung puts some holes into the heart and kills the deer.

The only bullet I found that I have shot and tryed out and wouldn't try a broad side on a deer with is some 60 gr 312 hollow pts pistol bullets out of my 308 at 2600fps they well not go through a full pop can. Brain shots only for them on deer. But they do a hell of a number on p dogs.

I am sorry but I do penetration tests before shooting stuff and know what the bullet should peform like on the size of animals I want to shoot them with. Sorry the bullet did just what my test showed it would started to open on the hair blew through the 2 in of deer and destroyed the heart and lungs.

I have done a of a lot of shooting, bullet testing personly kill lots of deer ect seen many more hundreds killed with all kinds of guns in 40 plus years of shooting and hunting.

I know what it takes to kill a deer sorry there was no luck involved when I pulled the trigger I knew that was a dead deer.

Now I could have had some bad luck I seen that happen if with the best of guns and bullets. A bird could of flew between me and the deer been hit by the bullet causeing it to blow up to soon. The deer could of out of the blue decided to jump ect ect ect ect.

But if one is going to worry about bad luck one would never pull the trigger.

I have a short story to share about a deer that I thought was an unkillable deer.I was with my buddy hunting a smaal strip of timber and a nice buck ran out twards my buddy it was heading to an open field when i got there my friend was propped against an old piece of farm equipment the deer was about 300 yards and comimg to a stop. He stopped and my friend shot it behind the front shoulder that deer ran about 50 feet and stopped and looked back broadside. He shot again and again we heard the bullet hit this time he jumped in the air and took off for the timber as I was watching thru my scope I could seethe impact of the bullet. he ran and ran and ran,we had snow and the whole day to get him we tracked him into a draw 30 minutes later . My buddy saw him move at 50 yards and shot at his neck as that was all he could see.sounded like a good hit when I got over to him he was baffled he had been hit 3 times and still going strong.We kept going and cought up again this time he was weak and in a ditch he did not make over when he tried to jump it.This time he hit it in the juglar and the deer was finished. Get this were both were shooting our favorite rifles in .270 cal that deer had been shot 4 times and not a bone was hit the first 2 shots were between the spine and the top of the lungs between the ribs both times. I to this day believe that deer would have survived those 2 shots the third shot in the neck definately slowed him and of course the 4th nailed him but I never thought you hit something that many times and not hit bone. It just seemed that you could not kill him. But it just goes to show that somtimes what apears to be a fatal shot is not! Inour case it appeared to be 3 fatal shots that were not.I have alway shot for arm pit and never lost one hit there yet.Neck shots I wont take unless there is some shoulder in there to hit in case I pull a bit and if adeer is facing you a high neck shot can be a very easy target to graze If you dont have a good rest.just my story to share.

cal30 1906, what bullet was he using?

on that particular day he was using 130 Hornady
sst? I am not sure i know it was aplasic tip but nat a nosler.I always shoot lead myself.Even then I dont know if that would have made a difference. The lungs were not touched though.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Hey sea fire hate to aruge with you but the MN buck you lost you belive it was it broad side in the chest. Because you never recoverd it you do not know where it was it for sure. You had lots of blood and hair but a non fatal hit can give you that. I have seen deer take a hit low below the heart and lungs blowing hair and meat blood all over the place. Then have to be tracked down and shot on the run. The same thing with a brisket shot. All it takes is one limb to send the bullet some place you do not want it.

I guess your opinon on high density bullet must be changeing as a 100 gr 6.5 isn't.

Shot the placement is important the less gun and less bullet makes it more so. Even with a heavey for caliber bullet and a bigger caliber gun one still has to drive the bullet into the vitals to make it work.

I find that a bullet that makes into the lungs and hearts then fragments well give you quicker kills then one that just punchs a hole through.

The key to this is making sure the bullet gets into the lungs and heart.

A prime case of this is a 120lb doe I shot last year with my sons 25-06 and 87 speer MV of 3420 this bullets comes apart on P dogs and really throws them in the air. I wanted to see what it would do on a deer. So I had a doe standing 167 lasered yards eating not knowing any body was around. I waited until she was broad side near side leg forward and but the bullet right behind the front leg into the lungs and heart about 5 inchs up from the bottom of the chest. The bullet did exctely what I thought it would do. Blew a big entance hole filled the heart and lungs with bullet and bone fragments from the rib it hit and dropped the deer in its tracks.

If I would have tryed for a 1/4 shot I would could have had trouble or a head on shot ect. I knew I was using a highly fragmenting bullet and waited just for the right time to pull the trigger. Work just as I thought it would.

As I well say again if you are using a light for cailber bullet ,a small cailber gun, bullet placement is all important. And if one can not wait for the perfect placement one should not be using them.

PDS:

That large buck I lost was hit in the lungs with a 300 Mag and a 200 grain Sierra in a Federal Load. I really believed and after calling Sierra got the same thoughts from them, that the bullet probably passed thru the buck before it had a chance to really open.. They indicated that 200 grain bullet is designed more for an elk sized game. I am sure that buck died in the swamp... It made me start believing that a big bullet and a powerful cartridge did not guarantee a quick kill....

I believe in shot placement first and making sure the bullet, its construction and its velocity are all in harmony/synch with the game you are pursing and the distances that you anticipate a shot. I do think if that big buck had been hit with a 180 grain bullet or a partition or something else, like a round nose the results would have been different.

I am still someone who prefers high sectional density in a bullet.... and high velocity and lighter bullet weight second.... however in 6 mm and 6.5 mm, I have come to believe that they are one very capable combination... ( I don't shoot a 25 caliber, but I would take a 257 Roberts or a 250 Savage home any day of the week!)

cheers
seafire

Seafire
My buddy who shot the deer in my story has lost several deer using the .300 win using heavy bullets due to non expansion.Sometimes the heavier bullets in the .30 cal and above are not constructed to heavy to expand in a deers rib cage and act as a fmj to a point.I have found this pretty common especialy in .30 cal ammo for the mags osmtimes a meat damaging shoulder joint shot is better to anchor them.

seafire A bullet doesn't need to expand to kill.

If you would have double lung that deer he would have die shortly.

My Dad tells me of a neigbor and freind that had a Win 95 in 30-40 who killed many a deer and all he ever would use was surplus mil fmj. He said that soft pts ruined to much meat.

My dad who killed dozens of deer during the 30's with 22lr to feed the family and neigbors. Says it you head shoot them they drop in their tracks. If you lung shoot them they run up to a 100 yards and die. He used soild 22 rf ammo.

I have shot deer with cast bullet no expandsion shoot then through the lungs and they die.

What I am saying is the the shot most likely did not go where you think it went for some odd reason. Not because of poor shooting. Just some time stange things happen to bullet on the way to a target.

I know of deer shot dropped right in its tracks shooter was aiming for the chest. When we get up to the deer its neck was broken and half shot off. Looking around we found that the bullet had cliped a limb about 10 feet in front of the deer. Bullet was most likely key holeing when it hit.

Bad luck good luck hell it killed the deer. Could of easy gut shot it or just clipped it and took off a bunch of hair and some meat. then the deer could of ran away never to be found with us wonderling how in hell a lung shot deer got away.

Of all the deer that I have help track down ( a hell of lot) when some one tells me they centered punch it and I have to track more then 100 to 150 yards and still haven't found the deer I know they did not. I have shot a whole bunch of them at the end of the track and in all cases they were not hit through the lungs. to far forward to far back leg shot off ect ect.

Prime case nice 8 point guy tells me he center shot it hair and blood meat all over the place. I look at the hair and meat and blood I tell him he shot it to low. He says hell no. We take up the track he shoots again i figure dead deer about 3o sec later to come running past me and I high shoulder and spine it with my marlin 357 carbine drops in its tracks.

His first shot low on the chest taking out meat hair ect. didn't enter the rib gage. His 2nd shot at the neck deer laying about 20 feet in front of him. cut a nice grove along the side of the neck blowing more hair meat and blood out. He didn't belive how a deer could run with a broken neck. I then showed him what is bullet actully had done. He just stood there looking at the wound.

Nope stange things can happen when one pulls the trigger.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by p dog shooter:
seafire A bullet doesn't need to expand to kill.


My Dad tells me of a neigbor and freind that had a Win 95 in 30-40 who killed many a deer and all he ever would use was surplus mil fmj.

How many did he put a bullet through that ran away and died.


My dad who killed dozens of deer during the 30's with 22lr to feed the family and neigbors. Says it you head shoot them they drop in their tracks. If you lung shoot them they run up to a 100 yards and die. They can run a heck of a lot farther than 100 yds. when they are lung shot with a 22LR, and do. Probably more deer have been wounded and got away after being shot with a 22LR or short than any other rifle or cartridge. What people did in the great depression they did because they had to for survival. We are not in a survival mode now and we should not try to propagate what would now be frivalous and unlawfull action.

Personally PDH it seems like you're sending the wrong message here. 22 rim fire rifles and military bullets on deer???? If somebody recognizes you as the expert you clam to be you know they are going try the 22 rim fire and mil. bullets to harvest deer.

You really deserve some recogniton for your attemt to completely bastardizing the original intent of this thread. roger

First and for most how do all the people who shoot solids is Africa kill a dam thing.

2 how many deer each year are wounded with so called soft point hunting bullets and never recover a lot of them.

Deer are not bullet proof shoot them in the right place and they die shortly. Shoot them in the wrong place and they run off wounded.

Using 22rf, highly expanding bullets smaller caliber guns ect is not for everbody. But They all have and well still kill a deer if the bullet is placed in the right spot.

Bartsche in your first post in one day you wounded and lost more big game animals then I have in 40 plus years of hunting. Because you didn't know or reconize the limits of your gun and bullet combo. How many deer have you lung shot with 22 to know how far they run.



Iam not propagating anything just stateing facts

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Shot placement seems to be getting a lot of press here on the forum and rightly so. Reloading the right bullet for the right caliber at the right velocity is also a high priority item that at times I get a feeling is is being pushed back on the shelf....

Hey Roger, you are absolutely 100% correct. Just read through the thread and you are getting a whole lot of bad information being tossed in the thread.

It is bad information simply because it can lead the beginners into improper thinking which could result in lost and wounded game. Then comes the crying and whinning excuse that, "I said they had to be a good shot to hit them in the ____! ANY Bullet or Cartridge will kill and here are some examples ___, ___, ___, and blah blah blah!"

The problem is some people reading these threads really are so inexperienced that they will think, "Well, they did it and they are certainly no better of a shot than I am. So if it worked(?) for them then it most certainly will work for me!!!"

Of course, the real problem is the people posting the low recovery percentage / high wound potential methods have little experience or common sense, otherwise they would never post such foolish things for the actual experienced folks to see. They loose credibility among the exact people they are trying to impress the most.

Fortunately most grow out of it.
---

By the way, I see Ruger is offering a rifle with the scope(improperly mounted) forward of the receiver just for you this year.

Bartche,
Of course you are correct, thats the way it is and always will be, no single item is going to make a proper killing rifle, it is a combo of a number of things combined and shot placement rates high in the book but its goes beyond that...

In your case the caliber is too light, although I have been quilty of using too light calibers myself...another thing is bullet construction, you needed tougher bullets in each case, or considerably less velocity, so your point is well taken...

pd, you are right, guys in Africa kill a lot of game w/ solids, but they are usually .375 or larger. That's a lot bigger hole than a .270. I would also disagree about the 2" of penetration. An animal can go along way on one lung, seen it & heard about it many times. For me the bullet has to give complete or near complete penetration from ANY angle. Shot placement is king but the bullet still needs to get to BOTH lungs &/or heart to kill humanely & quickly.

So lets get back to the orginal question. Loading the right bullet at the right vel. in the right caliber.

So if you have the right bullet and the right caliber.

Then you put that right bullet in the right place you just killed your game.

Then if your put that right bullet in the wrong place you have just wounded your game.

As Ray said killing something is a combo of factors.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Bartsche in your first post in one day you wounded and lost more big game animals then I have in 40 plus years of hunting. Because you didn't know or reconize the limits of your gun and bullet combo.

How many deer have you lung shot with 22 to know how far they run. None personally but I have witnessed more than one gut shot and lung shot by farmers and ranch hands.

On this you are absolutly correct.This happened 40 years ago when I was young and dumb and accepted the Hydraulic shock theory. I
was wrong to carry it to the extent that I did and am not proud of it .I figured, however, that perhaps some one would gain from my imaturity and experimentation on LIVE criters.That's why it was posted.



Iam not propagating anything just stateing facts Just by you stating the practice on this forum will insite someone to try it . That is propagation. In this case poor form at best.

roger

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

By the way, I see Ruger is offering a rifle with the scope(improperly mounted) forward of the receiver just for you this year.

Now what could you possibly mean by that? roger

By the way ; Nice response!!!!

Bartsche people have shooting deer size and bigger game with smaller calibers and not so perfect of bullets long before we were born. If not you would not have tried high vel fast expanding bullets 40 years ago.

They have killed them and they have wounded them.

It has beed written about and discussed pro and con from the time firearms were invented. A 45 cal is smaller then a 75 cal a 338 is smaller yet so forth and so forth.

I highly dought that you or I are going to be the last to do so.

If you read what I have written what I have said is if one is useing not the perfect bullet or caliber shot placement is all that more important.

The gun rags are still full of this same argument.

I have never hunted bear, and am going on my first bear hunt the end of this month.

My husband feels I should try for a lung-heart shot. I, on the other hand, feel that a head or neck shot is a much better option, as the distance is probably going to be less than 75 feet, (it is a hunt over bait) and the changes of the bear running with a head/neck shot is remote.

I will be using a 450 marlin wih 350grain bullets for this.

What do you guys think??? PS hubby has never been on a bear hunt either. We have only been hunting white tail so far.

Thanks

Marianne

YOUR 450 Marlin is more than up to the task, with a shot in either the lungs or neck.

There is no wrong option with a 450 Marlin.

Cheers and good luck
seafire

If I was using the 450 with the 350 gr bullet I would try to break both front shoulders destorying the lungs and or heart with the shot.

Big target lots of damage some lee way for some aiming err. This gun a bullet well kill them well as long as you place it in the proper spot.

A neck shot well do it a head shot well ruin the schull they both are harder to make then the shoulders