I was just parousing Hodgdon's reloading Data on their website and was looking at data for Rem.'s 7mm Ultra Mag. They listed the max. velocity for the Sierra 168 gr. MatchKing bullet at 3116 fps with 90 grains of H1000. I am currently shooting the same bullet at about 3075 fps with 72 grains of the same powder in my 7mm Rem. Mag. Is the extra 41 fps really worth the extra 18 grains of powder? I imagine the new 7mm SA would be even more efficient than my 7mmMag.
-Kyle

For some reason, Hodgden seem to universally use a 24" barrel for all their load data. I have the same questions about the 7mm STW data not being any faster than the 7mm Rem in their data. From my experience with with my rifles, shooting over a chrono, with 140gr 7mm bullets, I was lucky to get 3000 out of a 7mm Rem Mag with a 24" barrel, with 26" barrel I can easily get 3100+. In my 7mm STW with a 26" barrel, I can get between 3300 and 3400 with H1000. With a 7mm Ultra, you should be able to meet or beat my 7mm STW results with a 26" barrel, but it would really benefit from another inch or two of barrel to take advantage of all that slow burning powder you can stuff into that huge case.

Funny I should see this thread tonight......Spoke with a guy today with a 7MM RUM in a 700 with a 26" hart barrel. He showed me several chrono slips at 3500-3600+ fps with 150 grain Swift Scirrocos!!! I about fell over. I was wondering, what happens if your deer or elk shows up at 50 yds? Or even 150 yds? Will all that velocity get you decent penetration.

Sorry folks I'm just not a fan of varmint rifle speeds and 90 grains of powder in a deer or elk load. Few hunters can truly make use of all that cartridge. Few can even hit a deer or elks vitals at 300 yds from a field position anyway.

I'm off tomorrow for elk with my .300 H&H Sako with 180's at 3000 fps. How old fashioned I must be.

FN in MT

Well Frank. I guess you have a lot to learn still..... if the right bullet is used those velocities are cake. Ask Saeed!

[ 10-27-2002, 07:47: Message edited by: POP ]

bigdogfan2003,

In the last few years loading data has become very conservative and you are comparing that against your own data.

Mike

The more posts like this that I read, the more I realize that my 7mm Rem Mag and my 300 Win Mag are all the cartridge I'll ever need.My 7mm Rem does 3300 with a 140 and my 300 Win does an easy 3100 with a 180.I'd never be able to use any more trajectory than these loads deliver anyway.Nothing against the faster rounds,just don't think I'd ever realize the advantage.

They are obviously fudging the numbers to make the WSM's look good. My Hodgdon Oct '94 data lists for the 300 Win Mag 180 gr - 71.0 gr of H4350 @ 3079 fps with a 26" barrel. Sounds right. NOW they list 67.0 @ 2918 with a 24 " barrel to compare with the 300 wsm. Why would they bother trying to BS handloaders, factory ammo buyers yes.

[ 10-27-2002, 17:37: Message edited by: PEI ROB ]

bigdogfan2003, IMO, NO!!! The extra MV is not worth the price. Just check out the difference in trajectory between these two @ long range, say 500 or 600 yards! I'll bet there's not enough to notice.

The late Parker Ackley, the greatest wildcatter of them all, would rail against overbore cartridges even if he had made them up for someone. There is a law of diminishing returns on adding more powder to the same bore volume.

A club member who has both a 7mm RUM and a 7mm STW was shooting them and he commented that he gets almost the same velocity with the 140 gr bullets from each. I think that if the 175 gr bullet were selected a case capacity of the 7mm Mashburn Super that Warren Page and Bob Hagel used with such proven success would be just the right size. Alas there is little new!

[ 10-28-2002, 00:03: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]

I'm having a bit of a problem with the whole RUM sequence ... seems to me that the traditional progression of 7mm Mag, 30 WMag, 338 Wmag, 375 H&H Mag, 416 Rigby, 458 WMag is pretty nicely spaced, very very capable, and provides micely for all needs.

Then the vendors come along and make calibers that cartidges (the RUMS and the 30-378) that gain just a little at the expense of a lot powder, blast and recoil. Now the average guy can be assured of more velocity from a weapon they are less likely to be able to shoot well.

Seems to me the "hype" is not doing a service to the hunting community.

I do think it would be a lot more practical and valuable to focus on intermediate calibers like the 338-06 and the 35 Whelen. These can be viewed as delivering at the terminal end perfomance that is valuable to the hunter.

Just an opinion.

Yes, what I meant was that the 300 win mag is now underrated to make the 300wsm look better,IMO, did I mention that I just bought a 300 wsm. I think it will be a good round but I won't be going around saying it will be faster than a 300 win mag. Tom, is that factory ammo or gun. 24" wsm? I'll be very happy with anything accurate over 2900 fps, 180gr partitions and H4350. Its isn't here yet, but I can't wait.

You know, I am not into fantasy or what if's scenerio's but wouldn't it be an intereresting thought if none of us knew anything about centerfire rifles. Stay with me. None of us knows anything about rifles, accuracy, speed, and most of all history. Then someone layed before us all the rounds out there with the facts, and only the facts. Velocities, BC, drop charts, wind drift, recoil, price, barrel life, throat errosion etc, etc. Kinda like when your a juror in a trial. Take out all the emotion, take out all articles from other emotional people, take out all the campfire stories your father told you, and make your pick based on shooting the rifle, loading the round, performance, and just plain like it. I wonder what most of us would pick out of the 30 caliber category? Now keep in mind, not any wildcats. I bet most of us would pick something out of the 300RUM line. The 30-378, maybe but throat errosion, and recoil might be a big factory for being too stiff. But anyone with any esperience can master the recoil of the 300RUM. I know when I go to buy a truck, I usually pick out the most powerful motor, that will get more than 17 MPG. The 17MPG is my limit. So the .454 is out. Just something to chew on.

I have a 300RUM. Its a great rifle. It is my number one choice right now when i hunt but it was also my first rifle. I have alot of confidence in that rifle and I honestly don't mind the kick that much but after 25 rounds it starts to hurt. I am a bit concerned about barrel life but hey if I burn it out I will get a higher quality one put on and maybe it will shoot even better. But I am a bit concerned what it will do to the first deer that I shoot with it. It made a hell of a mess with the bear i shot this year. But it is very consitant and I like it alot. I'll never part with it

I think your analogy is off a bit , bigcountry . I think the 300 RUM IS akin to picking the 454 . The 30/378 would be like buying a 454 and souping it up even more .

I think the folks who like the fuel injected small blocks would get 300 Winchester or 300 Weatherby . (performance but still some measure of efficiency .

The six banger lovers would probably settle for a 30/06 .

Maybe, it just a thought. I see alot of people put so much emotion into their opinions about cartridges. You either here that "my Grandfather had a 30-06, my father had a 30-06, and thats all I will ever need", or this efficiency argument. When you think about it, the efficency argument is a mute point. I don't mind putting an extra 15 grains of powder. I mean it hasn't kept me from eating or anything or taking out a home equity loan to afford that extra powder. Or people are those hardheaded people that don't like change. I am an engineer and profit from change, so thats the reason I am biased towards new things. And I just like to play with new rounds.

markus, first rifle was a 300RUM. Wow, thats something.

I have nothing against any of the large-overbore-cartridges. But if you look at the facts, the little extra velocity and energy really isn't economical and, in almost all cases, will never be needed. But there is definitely nothing wrong with dreaming and experimenting.

here is some food for thought. I currently am getting 3100 fps out of my 7mm Mag with a 26" barrel with Hornady's 7mm 162 grain A-max. That produces 1798 ft/lbs energy and 2236 fps at 600 yards. At 800 yards, it is still carrying 1414 ft/lbs of energy and is going 1983 fps. Anyone who can't take an animal that was meant to be taken with a 7mm bullet with this kind of performance has a problem, and getting a bigger cartridge isn't going to help you.

What do you mean by economical? I mean, running a 454 in my chevy getting 10 MPG isn't economical, but fun as shit, but increasing my horses with my 350 up 20HP with .5MPG hit doesn't phase me. I mean if you want the most economical, cartridge, the 7mmMag is a poor choice. The 20 grains extra powder really don't phase me. I mean, what is that? 15 extra rounds per pound of powder?

Velocity means nothing without accuarcy. I know of no game animal that ever complained about how fast or slow the bullet that struck it was traveling. These new mega mags now being produced only produce one thing, Very expensive to shoot powder guzzeling barrel buring monsters that kill no better than my old 300 Winchetser magnum case will any day of the week. I would not own one of those overrated barrel burning monsters. My 300 Win Mag is tops in my book and will remain at the top of my list of wants in a magnum cartridges performance.

Listen to you all, 2900 with a 180 is all I need etc, etc, etc. At what point and why did you draw a line in the sand with the 300WM when lesser cartridges did fine then? I mean what the hell was wrong with the '06 that you had to invest in a barrel burning, powder eating, faster than needed, on and on and on.

You all have some good points to make, but I havn't heard one that hasn't been said of others in the past that you are convieniantly accepting as you MAXIMUM size NOW.

The 300 Ultra is accurate, and fast, with a beltless design that you can argue till your blue in the face isn't worth the extra 5 cents to shoot, but you'll ALL be the same ones saying IT'S the limit next time when the new line of 300 RSUM comes out, that's Remingtons Super Ultra Mag that pushes a 180 at 3550 to 3650 fps. It will happen, makes no difference if you like change or not, it's commin.

Wind drift is minimized, max point blank range is extended, energy increased at a longer range, and just to think........that made a difference BEFORE, now with the Ultra it don't, GIVE ME A BREAK!

Boyds groups....... velocity without accuracy.

Quite a sacrifice.



Mine shoots 1/2 MOA at 3200 fps with a 180 Scirocco and 92.5gr RL25 in a factory BDLSS. Boyds cuts that in half. Nothing wrong with the accuracy potential of this cartridge, quite the opposite.

Fireball(LMAO on that one) and Brent pretty much summed things up.Lets see,I have a rifle scope combo that,with the right load,puts 5 in a little teeny hole at extremely high velocities.Dang,I did'nt realize that I AM using a few more grs of powder to get those velocities.And that can only has 7000 grs in it.Gotta get rid of this thing before it breaks me.And I will shoot the bbl out before you do,least I'm hoping,so I can justify that 30in Pac-Nor.As for those 3600 fps loads,I'v done it too,with my 7mmRUM.Any of you ever owned a fast car?You probably drove it pretty reasonably 99.9% of the time? But just once in a while,you had to put your foot in it to see what that baby would really do? My hunting loads with a 150 gr Scirocco run 3324 fps and at 250yds(about the shortest shot I'm likely to get in these canyons) drop to about 2850fps.Zeroed at 400 it drops 11 at 500 and never rises above 7,works for me. And if I'm brush hunting I'v got the 30-30 or 45/70.
Jeff

Using max charges of IMR 7828 (as given in the IMR loading manual) in my .300 Weatherby with a 24 inch barrel, I get 3200+ f.p.s. with 180 grain bullets and 3000+ with 200 gr bullets. I suspect that with max charges of the optimum powder the 300 RUM will better that by maybe 100 or at most 150 f.p.s. To that I think the best response is a big yawn.

I't more like 200+ Lloyd. I'm getting nearly 3000 with 240's. Like I said, it's not for everybody but it is an advantage for those who want it.

Just for the short mag shooters, Barns new loading guide lists at least 4 loads with the 180 XLC at 3000 fps out of a 30-06 , 24" barrel , and a whole lot more in the 2950 fps range. Want a 5 shot short mag?

Bigdogfan2003, I can update you on the potential for the UltraMag case, I just had a wildcat built on the 338 RUM case necked to 7mm, I just got through running it up with 150 gr Ballistic Tip bullets with RL 25, your 7mm Rem Mag might have nightmares trying to please you after you hear these numbers. 89.5 gr. RL25 7mm/338RUM, Nosler 150gr. Ballistic tip, 3537fps. 140 Nosler Balistic Tip 3620fps. The last 5 shot group measured .635". 3" high @ 100yds.13.4" low @ 500. Sorry for you. These were fired with a 26" Krieger barrel. Haven`t you heard that the lawyer loads keep the companys from letting the real loads out? Don`t look for the new cases to get a lot of press because of the lawyer load. I chronographed a friends 7 RUM on Wednesday and the 140 Partition was going 3485fps. Please don`t tell us how your 7 Mag is keeping up with these new times. Respectfully Tim.

Tim in TN,

Those velocities are smoking...and fun to get, but what does it get you in the game fields?

I know it's fun to squeeze performance out of a rifle, but those velocities are a lot of blown up meat.

I know my regular 7 Mag with 175 gr. partitions at 3000 fps works great on everything from jackal to eland, and out to ranges a guy really shouldn't be shooting at. This is based on a lot of African experience.

Not trying to start a fight, just curious what the extra velocity gains a guy.

Joel Slate
Slate & Associates, LLC
www.slatesafaris.com

7mm Rem Mag Page www.slatesafaris.com/7mm.htm

Joel,

Wind drift is minimized, max point blank range is extended, energy increased at a longer range, and just to think........that made a difference BEFORE, now with the Ultra it don't, GIVE ME A BREAK!

Come on, we all understand the benifits.

Your emotional attachment to the slower, more common cartridges are understandable, but for a momment lets be rational. They're a flatter shooting, more powerfull, more wind resistant group of cartridges. You can ignore these facts and speak with illogic if you must.

I say your 7 mag is a better choice for most because they may be able to shoot them better to start, and therefore the HUNTER may be more capable using it, than larger one he's scared to get hit with.

I believe any cartridge that furthers any shooting sport is a good thing.

Having said that, I think the RUM(s) attract mostly the inexperianced and or nonreloaders. Ballistics that the RUM(s) claim or do make, have been avaliable to reloaders and wildcatters for decades. There will always been a influx of shooters gravitating to a new cartridges. After these 5% ers subside is when the true test of if the cartridge is going to survive.
Just my thoughts
Take care
smallfry

When I started to read the size of these guns you guys are talking about I am just amazed. To be honest I owned a 338 win mag about 10 years ago. I just could never really get over the recoil. Yep I am a recoil wussy.
When the arguement goes to increased power, less wind drift, flatter shooting. I got to stop and think. If the reason to own the gun is to get small groups at long range. I guess the big guns have the advantage. If the need to knock down a winter supply of elk stakes is in order, a guy just don't need that much hores power. Here is a picture of my Daughter.

She shot this bull with a 130 gr Interlock loaded down to 2800 FPS. The bull ran less than 75 yards. This was a early hunt in september. The competition was not like a open hunt so we had the advantage of being able to stalk, YES STALK, the bull. I have taken a LOT of elk with the 270,and 06 size rifles. I don't need a gun as big as what you guys are talking about but if you guys like them I like to read about it. I just couldn't do it my self. I would probably flinch like I was having a seizure. Ron

Idaho Ron, They are not for everyone, for sure, BUT, for those of us in search of the cartridge that gives the most bang for the buck it`s an interesting hobby, one that I certainly enjoy. Remington felt they needed to catch up a little, I feel with the Weatherby going to the 30-378, and realizing there was a market for people who are nuts about numbers. These fast cartridges are the most fun aspect of reloading I have experienced lately. I have had custom rifles since 1990 and this is where it has led me, to appreciate and understand ballistics and develope a round that delivers to the absolute upper limit of these values. Again 3" high 100yds. 13.4" low at 500yds. Now tell me you couldn`t use, or don`t need something like that?

Tim, I can appreciate the awsome numbers, but I don't shoot over 300 yards,,,EVER. My deer rifle is a 243 and my elk rifle is a 270. I was a archery hunter for 20 years until a accident ruined my archery hunting. So I went after game with a rifle but with a archery mentality.
18 years ago When I got my 338, I wanted a rifle that would anchor a bull in his tracks. I thought a 338 with 250gr Partition would be just the ticket. I just could never shoot the thing good enough. I did shoot a spike bull, but after that I sold it, the dies and everything. Since then I have shot several spikes with the 243 a lot of cows and a few BIG bulls with the 270. They died just as fast as the one did with the 338. In fact the only elk that dropped in his tracks was a 325 class bull. I knew that there were hunters on the next ridge so I had to drop him there. The shot was under 200 yards so I went for the shoulder spine. Like I said, right in his tracks 140 gr interlock at 3000. The bullets passed all the way through. One through the shoulder-spine, the other was a finish shot through the hart.
I work as a Reservist for the Idaho Fish and Game. I checked sveral people this year that had 300RUM's they are a HUGE cartridge. I can't sit here and say the deer were blown in half. I didn't really see any more damage on them than I saw with other guns.
I also beleave that the guys I talked to that had them seemed like the kind of guys that could shoot them well enough.
I do know my limitations. I have a LOT of confidence in the rifles I have. I know a big gun like that would NOT do me any favors.
Ron

I own a .338 RUM,I installed a muzzle on it otherwise the "kick" is too" rough"to be able shooting fine with the rifle.(benchrest).Why buy that hard kicker instead of a more appropriate rifle,I am "nuts"; about big calibers.I have "good"accuracy .555MOA with the Hornandy 200 grs Interlock and I dont need go to max. to obtain good energy.

I'm not sure why anyone would choose such a cannon either. I am the worst recoil wuss the Almighty ever let live past childhood. I hunt mainly in south Texas for dog-sized deer that have trouble carrying their antlers. Every two years or so, I go on a backpack trip to the Rocky's. I carry a 10 pound 7 mag up into the mountains for a few days of scouting and a couple of days of hiking--then I invariably hike down to the trailhead and pick up an 8 pound Steyr and hunt the rest of the trip with it. Since I have accumulated 9 preference points for a high country Muley hunt, I began looking at ultra light rifles--everything from the Remington Titanium in .270, on up to the Ultra Light Arms and the Strata by Rifle's Incorporated.

But I keep coming back to some of the huge muleys I have seen in the past from 450 to 500 yards down in clearings in the oakbrush--animals that no amount of stalking down in the brush over leaves that break like firecrackers will get you to. And I keep thinking, "What if I had had a true 1/2 minute of angle rifle that I could really shoot, that punched out a 150 grain at 3700 FPS? What if I had a range finder and a good tripod rest? You get the picture.---so what am I thinking of doing:

Ordering a 7 1/2 pound Signature in .300 RUM with a 27-inch fluted barrel and a muzzle brake on top of that. I am an irrational idiot. At nearly sixty, I will be unlikely to be able to carry the damned thing, much less shoot it. And when I do, it will no doubt be at a book Muley standing broadside at 35 yards and I will flinch badly enough to emasculate it and rip my shoulder out of joint. And yet I am almost 80 percent certain I will buy the damnable thing.

And so it goes.

Yep the 300 RUM was my first rifle. Before that I had been using my dads old 270 weatherby vangard. I had been reading on here everyones comments about how a 308 can do anything a 30-06 can do. And that a 30-06 could do anything that a 300 win could do. So I figured well a 300 rum can do all those things. Plus I wanted something I could use on bears, elk, moose, goats, sheep. It can handle the big bears too which in BC there is always a chance of running into.

I have definately found though that all of the reloading manuals are underating what the RUM's can do. Hogdons seems to be underating by the largest margin.