I've never done this and wondered if there was really anything to it. Comments would be appreciated.

Regards,

~Holmes

This will also help keep bullets from running out on rifle rounds. Leave the neck expander stem loose, run a case over it and as you start it back down (expander in the neck) tighten the lock ring.

My $.02

mike

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NRA Life Member

United States of America, Love it or LEAVE IT!

[This message has been edited by mssmagnum (edited 12-29-2001).]

Never know if any fingernail polish threw it out of square

mike

I have squared my dies, first with the washer method and then following up with case neck alignment.

While I am not searching for benchrest accuracy from my .375, the procedure should at least extend brass life as well as that of the dies themselves.

Regards,

~Holmes

I didn't think they were out of square. On the contrary, I just upgraded my equipment with a new Redding UltraMag press and Redding dies. The fit and finish of this equipment is most impressive.

My initial query was a result of browsing the latest Sierra Reloading Manual where they discuss squaring the dies.

It is my understanding that threaded type dies, when locked down with the rings, may have enough "thread play" to allow a slight out-of-square condition.

I am having no problems with my handloads, just simply was interested in implementing any additional accurizing procedures that other experienced handloaders felt were appropos.

After running a few dozen cartridges through using both squaring methods, I have been able to detect no difference in case runout from those cases sized before squaring. Additionally, Sierra mentions that after squaring the dies, it may be more difficult to remove the die from the press. This would seem to me to indicate thread bind from a less than close thread fit. My dies, after squaring, were as easily removed as before the process.

It does seem the neck expander pulls through more smoothly but this may be my imagination.

Perhaps die squaring was more of an issue with older style equipment. I am extremely pleased with the new Redding components. The tolerances seem to be very good.

Always interested in learning new tricks.

Regards,

~Holmes

Guys, pull the neck expander off all your dies and toss them. I load over 30 rife calibers and none of my dies have a neck expander on them. I have found that the only thing an expander ball does is pull the neck out of line. No matter how square your dies are neck expansion happens when everything is free floating and the case is not supported by the die.

Other things I do related to this:

1. I always start with 100 rounds of NEW UNFIRED brass. I neck turn all brass even if it is to be used in a chamber that is not tight using a Wilson turner that uses a case holder that holds the cartridge by the body. It is my belief that once you have resized, seated a bullet, or fired a case in a chamber, you have compounded any alignment problems you might have. I have never seen a piece of new brass that the neck was not thicker on one side than the other. With everything floating, when the expander ball comes out, the thin side of the neck stretches easier and in my opinion pulls the neck out of line.

2. Yes, sometimes bullets seat a little harder with no expansion ball but its never been a problem for me. If for some reason you are shooting flat base bullets, a hint of die sizing wax on the base if the bullet is the cure. In extreme cases you could use Sinclair's expanding mandrel die to flare just the mouth of the neck, AKA like strait wall pistol ammo,,,or,,, you could turn the necks a couple of more thousands to make them size down a little less. OK, BR guys don't roast me on this. Factory necks are loose anyway and a couple of more .000" never had an adverse effect on accuracy for me.

3. I neck size only unless the rounds start to chamber tight, then I just "bump" them with a full length die until the brass chambers easy again. I do this by removing the firing pin from the bolt and let the individual chamber of the rifle determine the proper amount of full length resizing. Obviously my ammo is dedicated to one particular gun.

4. I only use Forester Bonanza Benchrest bullet seating dies. This is the only die I know of that supports the case & neck in the die before it shoves the bullet in and fits a standard press.

my $0.02,

Mike

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Don, I am getting similar run out as before I tried the various squaring methods; .003 - .005. I have heard others comment about different shell holders having an effect, as well.

Hotdog, since I have been researching this topic, I have run across several experienced loaders that use an o-ring either on the die or the shell holder. Interesting, eh? Most I talked to, however, simply use the washer or a socket or whatever to square the dies with.

I spent some time at the gun shop and examined three different brands of sizing dies. I observed the expander ball as I ran the adjuster up and down. They all wobbled like crazy and I learned nothing from that little experiment!

Seriously, I think the shell holder and the expander ball may have more to do with concentricity than the square of the dies. I'm going to start using graphite on my case neck interiors instead of conventional lube as I my upstroke is pulling on the case more aggressively than I think it should.

The rifle I am loading for is a pre-64 M70 in .375 H&H. I cannot set my bullets out much past the recommended 3.6" or I start to drag the magazine face and ramp. I require perfect feeding even when chasing jack rabbits!

My primary goal here was to increase the life of my brass as opposed to achieving bench rest accuracy. Hell, my best group to date is .75" for three shots at 100.... and shots number 4 & 5 opened this up to 1-1/8"! My average is usually around the 1.5" mark. I'm probably not going to make the BR crowd nervous!

I use a Redding neck sizing die and my loads are around factory levels as I'm not a velocity nut. Still, I have to trim my brass most every loading session. Manufacturers recommend discarding brass after four trims and I was hoping to extend this.

All of my playing around has been done with cases that have been loaded 3 or 4 times. I am going to repeat the experiments with a new batch of brass and see what happens.

Possibly, this wild goose chase is a result of cabin fever during the Wyoming winters!

Regards,

Holmes

I feel both arguments here are correct. I do think a rubber o-ring under a die is in truth, a floating method of loading. I just don�t feel personally it floats enough. A machined flat washer can be used to adjust the slop in die threads but I see no way to alleviate the slop in the groove of the shell holder. How do you insure that the case you place in the shell holder is positioned exactly in the same place to .001� ? I don�t think it can be done. Now, how you insure the top grove is cut plumb and is pulling the case out of the sizing die within .001� of plumb. Alignment is critical in and out (at least that�s what my wife says). I think the real proof in my argument is that the bench rest shooters, who typically load the most consistent rounds, use a hand held die and a hammer at the bench. That�s floating.

Guys, I am new to this forum and I don�t want anyone to think I have all the answers or feel that I think I am a reloading guru. I do have years playing with reloads and I just am trying to relay to you what works for me. Using the methods described in my two post regarding this topic I get typically .0005� to .001� run out on my case body, case neck, and bullet, using a Sinclair tool with micrometer. If I get a loaded round with more than .001� run out anywhere I start looking for a dirty die or case neck that needs to be re-turned.

In regards to case life, I feel the less you work your brass the longer it will last. I load a 22-250 off the charts. My standard load is chronograhped at 3750 F/S with a 50-grain bullet. I shoot my 240 Wby at 4030 F/S with 70gr. Ballistic tips. I am still using the original 100 pieces of brass in both that I started with several years ago. ****Now guys, don�t start trying to load up your guns to these numbers. Both of these rifles I built up myself and are NOT off-the-self models******

Love the forum & hope this helps in some way,

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by Top:
For all the reasons above, I switched to a Co-Ax. I think the floating die concept is the key to concentricity.

---

Top nailed it. Go this route, and you'll never have to worry about it, again...whether run-out makes a difference to you, or not.

RSY

BUT--since getting a casemaster years ago I still seem to have to "chase" runnout issues.

WHAT I'VE FOUND WORKS BEST--is to try and fine tune the decapping stem. Holmes--you said you went to the shop and saw how they wobble as you turn them in and out. What I've found is that if you make small small adjustments to the stem you will find a sweetspot for less runnout. Make a turn of just 1/16 or 1/8 and size 3-5 brass and see how they come out. Make another turn of the same amount and size 3-5 and see how they come out. Eventually I think you'll find a spot that is pretty well centered. Doing this on some dies I've gotten runnout down to under .001". MOst dies I can get down to .002-.0025. ONce I have a die set I try to never ever touch the lock ring again. It is realy ez to change headspace by using a shim kit available from Sinclair that has an assortment of shimms from .001 thick to .008 thick. If you sit down with about 20-30 brass you should be able to find that "sweetspot". You can go back and resize the ones that didn't turn out good.
I hope allthis rambling made sense.

First off let me say there is a whole lot of nit picking going on here. Much ado about nothing. If you rifle is a factory, out of the box, plain vanilla, all this noise is just noise. If the rifle AND the shooter are not up to sub 1/2 MOA all this theoretical stuff is just squat. You first have to have the equipment to do the job, i.e., rifle blueprinted, bedded, stocked, barreled and scoped to the tolerances that will allow you to shoot small groups. Second the shooter has to be able to SHOOT those small groups.

One thousandth of an inch is a mighty small thing. I had a teacher tell me that the heat of my hand on a micrometer could change the reading by that much and more. Think about that the next time you get all persnickety.

I don't want to seem a smar tass but I've been doing this reloading thing for over 45 years and I can guarantee you one thing, I know beaucoup but I don't know everything. I learn new techniques everytime I visit the web. I just learned about the "O" ring thing. I have some Lee dies that have the ring on them but found that for benchrest/varmint level accuracy they don't measure up. They worked fine for shooting 2 - 4 inch groups which is great for timber but not for plains hunting.

Here is a story for you to think about. Just before Christmas I was working on 50 22-243 cases make from 308 LC64 match brass. I had just re-bedded the 22-243 action and just wanted to check how good the LC stuff was.

The rifle has consistantly stayed within 5/8" to 1/2", and when I did my part with the rifle and the loading, it would keep 5 in 1/4" and 10 in 3/8" most of the time. Once I find a good load I don't waste the barrel on paper. Once a year or so I will do 10 on paper so see if I need to adjust the seating.

Most of this information came from the benchrest crowd and I just grabbed it for myself.

The LC neck walls were within 2 thou and the weight within 3 grains which was very good compared to some commercial brass.

I resized in a 308 RCBS FL die, grabbed a handfull at random to check runout and they were running 000 to 002, plenty good for shooting squirrels. I continued sizing smaller and smaller until down to 243. I then neck turned and check wall uniformity, trimmed, swaged the pockets, did the flash holes and uniformed the primer pockets. Finally I picked out 10 at random, checked the runout and noted it, then ran them through the 22-243 FL sizing die with a HIGHLY POLISHED 0.2205 EXPANDER BUTTON AND USING FORSTER SIZING WAX INSIDE THE NECKS AND ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE CASE. (Just wanted to get your attention again and to show you I know a thing or two)

There was 3 to 10 thou runout on the 10 cases AND THE CASES FLOPPED AROUND LIKE A FISH OUT OF WATER!!!!!.

Again, I don't want to seem a smar tass, but this was not unexpected. It has happened to me lots of times over the past so you just solve the problem and continue on. When this happens I take off the expander button and put on one ground to 0.200 just for this eventuality. I grind down the expander button so it doesn't touch the inside of the necks and use it for decapping only for the hunting guns and they still stay within 3/4" to 1/2", usually smaller, for three shots.

I resized the offending cases again turning each 180 degrees, checked the runout, again back to 000 to 002 thou, resized all the cases in the 22-243 FL die, ran them over a Sinclair 0.221 mandrel and they came out with 0.220 to 0.2205 ID and with the runout staying within the 000 to 002 range.

I loaded up 10 with a proven load and they are waiting for the snow to melt so I can test them.

Oh, by the way for the most part I just run the sizing die down hard against the shell holder, take another 3/4 turn down then lock the die, and I use bushing style dies for the close work.

Here is my sage advice learned over many years and swiped from everywhere and everywhom I could get it from:

BUY GOOD EQUIPMENT FIRST.

1. Use Redding or Wilson Bushing type sizing dies and you won't have to deal with the expander button BS.

2. Use Redding or Forster Ultra sliding chamber or Wilson straight line seating dies and your bullet runout will stay within 000 to 003 thou.

3. Get a high quality, DIGITAL, ELECTRONIC Micrometer and Caliper.

4. Get a set of Stoney headspace gauges and OAL guages for each caliber you have.

5. Get a Sinclair catalog and buy a bunch of quality tools. Any of the neck turning tools, primer pocket uniformers, neck turning adjustment fixture, concentricity gauge, comparitors, die shims, Redding competition shell holders, bullet seating depth tool. Sinclair just has all this stuff in one place, but you can find most of the items in Lock, Stock and Barrel, Natchez, Midsouth, Midway and Brownells.

Then, LEARN HOW TO USE THE EQUIPMENT. I wish I had some of this stuff way back when or enough sense to produce it myself and make some money.

Last but not least, you have to learn something to be able to run with the big dogs and some dogs never learn. Keep an open mind, learn where you can and don't listen to the yappers. There are a whole passel of gunners out there that are a lot smarter than I am, giving good advise. LISTEN TO THEM and you won't go wrong.

Keep on, keeping on. Makatak

What a lively discussion. I just had to pipe up when I read the remarks about the Lee Dies. I have had excellent results using Lee Dies for my .223, 25-06, and 35 Whelen. I do tighten them with a 10in. adjustable wrench, and I also use the method mentioned earlier where I turn the case about 3-4 times during the bullet seating procedure to ensure concentricity. The groups from all 3 guns are 1/2 in. or less @ 100 yds. With these types of results, I am not sure that anything else needs to be done. I really do believe that some procedures are more advantagous to accuracy than others. But squaring the die is an interesting thing to look at with my 30-06, which I believe could be shooting better, and I have noticed some uneven resizing using the Hornady Dies that I bought when I purchased the gun. I have decided over the years that I prefer the Lee Dies to Hornady. I have also had no problems with the RCBS dies that I have owned, other than price.

Thanks for all the insights.

Mike

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

And it would appear we should all be drinking Ray's favorite instead of worrying about all the above!

I have used Lee tools for a long time and they work great in some cases. I didn't like what occured the few times I did use the ring thing so I pulled the ring and turned the locking ring upside down so it would have a larger bearing surface and added another ring for locking. I couldn't keep the bullets seating numbers constant.

I use the rubber o rings when I bed a rifle because they hold the barrel centered in the channel. The die then worked just like all the other brands I have.

The Lee dies are a cheap way to use as stepdown dies for making brass from other brass and for doing some of the heavy sizing.

As I said in my lengthy dissertation when I want super accurate ammo I use bushing dies and straight line seaters. They work for me and seem to give better results, but you have to decide your level of comfort when it comes to groups.

What Ray said is also absolutely correct and only benchresters and machinists that I've known get jumpy over the small things.

The best part of this loading game is to take what you want, use it, and leave the other stuff out.

Just thought I would take some heat off rugerman....it was me that tightens his dies with a 10 in. adjustable....and yes, I would say I overcome the o-ring on the Lee Dies by doing this. I find that my reloads work best when the dies are tight in the press. I don't have to stand on the wrench, but the added torque from the wrench is an asset.

There is one thing that I did forget to mention, is that I can get tighter groups by backing down on the velocity and reloading for 100 yd groups only. But instead I try to find a balance of accuracy and velocity for hunting purposes.

My point is that I have very good luck with the Lee Dies that I own. I should probably dump the Hornady Dies that I have for the 30-06 and get Lee's for it. If I have to square a die for it to work, something is not right.

Mike

Having always been a hand loader by virtue of economics, it has only been recently that I really began to investigate the process of carefully tailored ammunition for accuracy and consistency.

While many of the comments addressed here may not be relevant or realistic in the real world of game hunting, I have certainly learned a lot about the mechanics of hand loading overall.

Many experienced hand loaders seem to have their own preferred little tricks and treats that they feel gives them the best results. This I cannot argue.

We all know that firearms react as individuals to different loads and it appears that hand loaders are equally diversified regarding technique!

Thanks to all for an excellent thread.

Regards,

~Holmes

Wasn't putting any heat on anyone, not my style, just firm statements and I HAVE at least 10 sets of Lee dies, that many Hornady New Dimension, and at least twice that many RCBS. Some of the earlier Lee dies without the rubber thingys have loaded a ton of fun.

For the level of accuracy I want, squaring the dies does make a difference. Somewhere on this site I posted some results of dies out of square and what partial resizing can do. I also went back yesterday and checked out what was happening with the Lees. They were set for partial resizing which allows the linkage in the press and the hardness of the brass dictate the amount of sizing. Bent the Hell out of a 17 Rem decapper rod, now it is straighted and relegated to poping caps when I need to measure a case without runing it through a sizer.

All I can say for sure what happened in the last few days was an eye opener. Some of which I knew but had forgotten. I just received the Stoney headspace gauges and Redding cometition shell holders today so for the next couple of weeks I will be measuring all my rifles resizing setups and running tests to determine what if any changes happen, before and after stuff. This might also give me an idea why a couple of rifles just aren't cooperating.

For normal hunting accuracy it might not mean a thing. Changing a brand of primers can cause a group to open or close more than a few thou runout, throat burn out can affect the group and just plain not getting it clean can make you want a hack saw, but all the little things add up to cutting your groups in half or more. I definitely believe that the more accurate your loads are the better able you are to place the bullet where it will kill quickly.

Look at it this way, a rifle, hunter and load capable of 1" groups can kill 3 times farther than one capable of only 3".

If a rifle can hit within 1" of a spot that is actually a 2" circle, 1" on either side of the spot, top and bottom. A 3" rifle doubles that mean to 6", at 200 yards that doubles to 4" and 12", 300 equals 6" and 18". That can mean a quick kill, a gut shot or a complete miss. Hey, if I was to wantin' to do the bad thing to someone I didn't like, I wouldn't want to miss and have them get back with a more accurate toy and get me, now would I. Think about it.

Don't toss out any dies though. I have stuff I bought 40 years ago and I use them once in a while for something I'm messing around with. I have 3 sets of different brands of dies for 17 Rem, 223, 22-250, at least 2 sets for some of the 25 and 6 mm, some big stuff for the toys I gave up, but I still use them for paper weights and hammers and they all come in handy.

I like to shoot, paper or hide, rifle, pistol, shotshell and airgun and I like to experiment and learn new things so I am always looking at what's going on in the shooting game and how I can get things to work better. Sometimes that doesn't happen but that in itself is still a learning experiment.

My advice is alway to enjoy what you have but strive for something better, don't pay much attention to conventional thinking if it flies in the face of experience but don't negate convention just to be a smar tass, and try to keep you foot out of your mouth as much as possible. (Boy that doesn't work for me sometimes...... I heard that)

I usually don't bother with posting any of my experiences or knowledge on any website, if you will, because it just isn't anyones business and I have a bit of a 'tude because of my background, but somewhere along my lifes path many have taught me a lot and I survived. So, I think it's just fair to pass it along. I know what some think who read my posts, because they've been there my whole life, and it hasen't bothered or hurt me a bit. Spending a big part of my life dodging on both sides of the law gives me a jaded view of humanity but it still doesn't relieve me from what I think should be the correct way to act.

This new thing is definitely the information hiway but it also turns loose a bunch of disinformation, missinformation and just plain bullshit to any who can hunt and peck. I may not like some of the garbage that's on it, but I would fight and die for your right to go there and use it, freely and without any government intervention.

Life's to short and things are too great to bother with the BS. Smile at enemies, it makes them verrry nervous. Enjoy your sport.

Small point I know--just my theory.

Actually I think we're thinking the same just said it differently

Let me see if I understand what's being said. Your saying that 1-5 thou runout in a rifle chamber makes no difference?

quote:

---

Originally posted by aladin:
" Atkinson: As a gunsmith I can tell you that .001, .002 and up to .005 is nothing to consider, not even in case expansion, chamber dimensions or anything else, my breath after a shot of Old Crow is thicker than that."

Let me see if I understand what's being said. Your saying that 1-5 thou runout in a rifle chamber makes no difference?

---

Yea, that's the way I read it also???? My SAMMI spec GO/NO-GO chamber gauges are closer than that and I consider that to be the bare minimum just for safety sake, forget about accuracy.

Guys, I don't beleive anyone really reloads just for the money savings. Reloading is as much fun as any aspect of shooting. When we work on squareing dies, turning brass, neck sizing only etc. We are trying to improve on a mass production machine (rifle) using mass production components (brass, powder, primers,bullets)to improve the accuracy as much as possible.

In 1966 I spent hours tinkering with a factory perfect 427 Corvette. Every valve was set with a micrometer, every spark plug wire was double insolated and bridges added everywhere to make sure there was no spark leak, and on, and on, and on.

I just spent a week working on 100 rounds of new factory brass before I even primmed it..... same enjoyment, different toy.

I bet I could hit a dog size target at 100 yards with scope held on with Duct Tape also...It just wouldn't be as much fun.

Shoot safe,
Mike

TO LOCK THE DIE IN PLACE:

Take a small mechanic�s socket and place it between the shell holder and the bottom of the die, and then press the ram and socket against the bottom of the die. Keep the pressure applied, and lock the die in place with the lock ring. This procedure squares the die with the shell holder.

TO ALIGN THE EXPANDER / DECAPER ASSEMBLY:

Back off the lock ring and run a case up in the die until it punches out the primer. Now raise the handle until the expander pulls into the neck of the case, and hold it there. With the expander in the neck of the case, tighten the lock ring. This procedure aligns the expander with the neck under tension, minimizing the possibility of pulling the neck out of line on the down stroke of the ram. This alone can cut runout to a minimum.

[This message has been edited by Frank (edited 01-21-2002).]

If you buy Lee FL sizing dies the expander button is right up next to the neck area- out of the neck size and right into the button.

FMPOV- you leave the die untightened in the press. You run the case into said die to the point where you want to size- USING the chamber as your guage. Once found, run a case into said die- tighten the lock ring and remove the case. Same with the expander button sans a Lee die- loosen stem and bring the case into sizing position and tighten.

1. Without a concentricity gage, you have no real idea IF, or to what degree, your dies are out of square. AND without a concentricity gage you don't know if it is caused by your chamber, and/or your sizing dies, and/or your press, and /or your shell holder, and/or the brass itself.

2. There is no direct corelation between accuracy and runout. YES, �extreme� runout can effect accuracy, however, minor runout can have no effect at all. In any event, runout is generally way down the accuracy gremlin list. You test this by taking your most accurate load and deliberately adding runout to a cartridge to determine IF, or to what extent it alters accuracy.

Thus, Ray�s comments about mountains out of molehills, is correct. You can invest a lot of time in the dark guessing, or you can load and shoot. If you have a serious accuracy problem, it is most likely a bedding issue, a scope issue, or crappy barrel issue. If you loading tolerances are within 1 to 2% across the board, you will be an accuracy god - that is unless you are a benchrest shooter.

If you have found serious runout, purchase a concentricity gage and start tracking down the ture culprit. Many times it is not your dies.

2. In the case of a loosely chambered sporting rifle, ammo runnout most likely isn't a huge issue-- or is it? In some guns I believe it can and does matter. I often use Lee Target Model loaders at the bench- firing from the same case and using dropped chgs [unwt'd]. My Marlin 06 has delivered three shot groups seldom exceeding 3/4" and many cloverleafs with this method- using only regular spitzers. In this case I believe it works because this gun's throating is relatively short but very wide at origin. The bullet is dead on bore center, or so it seems. I can't argue with the results. If that's actually due to runout I dunno. But those systems allow boring the case neck out which is very precise. I think that factor achieves an alignment not possible with dies using non bored or non neck turned cases.