Gents

I have found out that I have 4" high POI when shooting from the bench, while 4" low when shooting freehand. Some loads went directly through POA, meaning just a 4" drop from bench position. Sandbags used, hand under forestock always, no part of rifle touching anything else than me. Shots taken with same load, same day, 30 minutes between groups.

How to resolve this?

Daniel

I noticed the same sort of thing when I first started shooting with a scope, off the bench or using a post rest the POI was the same as POA but off hand the POI was lower. I had to reveiw my whole technique and found it was a bad habit I picked up, not following through after firing. Even though I know what the problem was/is I have to make a conscous effort to f/t.

Generally it's not that much.. indicates, to me, that you have the butt of the rifle on the bench or bags, and, seriously, your screws should be tighter.

generaly it is about 2" total, not 8...

i suggest placing the rifle into your shoulder, holding the forearm LIKE you are holding it (hand between rifle and rest) and adjusting.

Dear Huglu

Sad to say I thingk you have a consistent flinch and as the previous post mentioned its the follow through letting you down . The bench rest shooting is giving you the correct POA/POI. My advice is get in the offhand postion with an unloaded rifle and aim at a fixed reference point. Apply gentle trigger pressure and watch your POA as the trigger breaks keep watching the POA for a few moment before repeating this dryfire practice. When using a loaded rifle repeat and try to hold your poa for a second after firing.

quote:

Originally posted by Huglu:
I have found out that I have 4" high POI when shooting from the bench, while 4" low when shooting freehand.
Daniel

Daniel, from the sound of your post, you are comparing rested (bench) shooting against standing off hand. I don't know about you, but I rarely try to make any judgement of POI (or even group size) from a standing off hand position. Sadly, my off hand shooting is quite simply not consistent enough for me to rely on this position. If you used a standing rested position (rifle rested vertically or horzontally), you might be able to draw better conclusions.

I have also noted some discrepancy between POI from a bench and standing (rested) position, say. But I have never had that difference amount to anywhere close to 4 or even 8 inches. Half an inch to an inch or maybe (at the outmost) two - but that would be the absolute exception.

- mike

thanks for replies so far.

The screws are as tightened as they could be. If turned in tighter, the threading will be destroyed.
I had a gentleman standing by my side to look when I shot, and it was no flinch at all according to him, or to me.
The rifle were as posted never in contact with any other thing than my hands and shoulder. The butt was only in contact with my shoulder, no sandbags were close to that area. I hold the rifle the same way as I do when shooting free hand.
The load i used is a practice load that hits 4" higher than the hunting load. But now when shooting free hand, it dropped 4 " lower than the POA.
2" could be tolerated, but not 8" as it is here.
I do not dip the gun while shooting, nor could the shooting instructor that observed me find anything odd with the shooting technique.

I do not make any conclusions from this, other than the fact that I held under the target zone due to the 4" higher impact of the bullets as tested earlier, and when the shooting test were marked, all bullets were in a tight group 4" under the point of aim. When I later shot another group, all were well within the target area.
It seems like it is a difference of 4-8" depending on loads and bullets and if shooting free hand or sitting in a bench.

/Daniel

Most of my shooting is offhand since most of it is during high power silhouette comps. MANY things could be causing this (that is the bad news). Best idea is to do alot of dryfiring and concentrate on calling your shots to see what is happening. Last weekends match I shot the worst that I have ever shot. I hit the stand on half the rams @ 500m before I held on the top of the back and started connecting. Just as the trigger broke the sights would drop. Still not sure why, but at least I know what happened and that it definately was not the weather conditions or the gun (never is the gun.....). Good luck, this could be like correcting a slice or do you just compensate for it?

Deke.

8" is a lot of difference. I shot HP rifle competition for many years and found that any time I got aggressive on the trigger the shot was low when shooting offhand.

To check and see if you are doing so, let a buddy load your rifle for you and once in a while slip you an empty rifle.

May not be the problem, but very easy to find out for sure.

Regards,
hm

Hey, Daniel, you got a lot of international reactions here! So I will add mine. Saw you had nice weather up north!
I always noticed you get a change in POI while using another firing position. But not the eight inches you found, that's a bit too much. Back off the back guard bolt, tighten it with normal strength, the front guard bolt might be a bit tighter. What about bedding? Recoil lug fits correct? Cheque your freefloating, rework your trigger, no drag, no backlash, clean breaking point at about 1200 grams and see what happens. Do a lot of dry practicing at home, as some other people told you.
Have a nice day,
Jan.

Gents!
Thanks for replies so far.
Much things can affect this, so I am off to do some more shooting soon to try to find out the reason for it.
The barrel is bedded, it is a McMillan stock, it is fully free floating all the way back to the bedding. As said previously, the barrel and mechanism is tightly fitted to the stock. It is almost a suction fit in some places.
The difference from the old wooden stock is that the same load printed 4-5" patterns, while I now had a 1" group. The bad side is that the group wanders in height depending on the shooting position....
If there would be some kind of mechanical thing with the mechanism, then I would not expect it to be so concistant. Ok, that I could drop 1 out of 4 shots as a bad trigger pull, but not when all shots print a group just under my POA. I think it could be that I was shooting quick, and did not squeeze the trigger in the same slow way as I do on the bench. It is more of a determined pull, than the soft pull when everything is in line and steady. This might account for some things, but if it is all of the 8", I do not know...

Must get me another pound of powder after the weekend....
Damn swedish gun laws maximize the gun powder limit to 2kgs. I have to run to the shop every other week to buy new powder as the supply diminishes...

The moose and bear hunting season approaches, so I have to get all things ready first...
sincerely
/Daniel
ps, Jan, the weather is fine here, a bit too dry though, no berries in the wood, although the low water in the rivers make it easier to find the chars, grayling, trouts and salmon... Ds.

4 to 6 inches is still "angle of moose". If; as you pointed out, there is nothing obviously wrong with your O/H technique it might be VOODOO. Check around you for any dolls with pins sticking into them.

My wife has the same issue. I believe it's more of a flinch; pulling down on the forearm as she pulls the trigger. She's forever shooting game just above the brisket. FWIW, Dutch.

hi i have always kept this in mind when sighting in off of a sandbag rest,in the writings of ELMER KEITH he stated that your gun will shoot low offhand if you sight in with sandbags,therefore i always sight mine in a couple of inches higher.

quote:

Originally posted by Huglu:
Gents

I have found out that I have 4" high POI when shooting from the bench, while 4" low when shooting freehand. Some loads went directly through POA, meaning just a 4" drop from bench position. Sandbags used, hand under forestock always, no part of rifle touching anything else than me. Shots taken with same load, same day, 30 minutes between groups.

How to resolve this?

Daniel

I have seen this problem with rifles having two-piece stocks, like the Ruger No. 1's. But have never had it happen with a bolt action that is not rested on a hard surface.

Gents!

I am back from the cabin and 2 trips to the range now.
I thought that I had some kind of flinch at first, when i noticed that I closed the eyes when I pulled the trigger. After noticing that, I forced myself to open the eyes again, and after 3 rounds I shot with both eyes open. A friend watched me shoot, and could not see any flinch, pull or other strange thing with the shooting. I noticed though, that when I put the rifle hard back to the shoulder just as I do in bench, lift it up, and remove the safety and then shoot standing, then the first shot will hit the 5,1 ring on the moose target. Taking the rifle down to reload and put it back on the shoulder again makes the next shot go 6 o´clock and low in the 3 ring. Thats just between the front legs and 15 cm above the lower part of the figure.

So, When I hold the rifle just like in the bench, the shots go to POA, but if the rifle is slightly more loosely held, the POI and POA do not match at all.
How to resolve this?

Sincerely
Daniel

I think Deke is on the right track. I believe your cheek weld is changing with your position, thus your sight picture changes which is reflected by the hi/low hits on the target. There's only one way to fix this: practice, practice, practice.

quote:

Originally posted by Huglu:
I noticed though, that when I put the rifle hard back to the shoulder just as I do in bench, lift it up, and remove the safety and then shoot standing, then the first shot will hit the 5,1 ring on the moose target. Taking the rifle down to reload and put it back on the shoulder again makes the next shot go 6 o´clock and low in the 3 ring. Thats just between the front legs and 15 cm above the lower part of the figure.

So, When I hold the rifle just like in the bench, the shots go to POA, but if the rifle is slightly more loosely held, the POI and POA do not match at all.
How to resolve this?

Sincerely
Daniel

The rifle must be held exactly the same from shot to shot to hit same POI.

The bullet is still in the barrel as the rifle starts to recoil. If cheek pressure, butt plate location on shoulder, pressure of butt plate against shoulder, eye relief on scope, grip on the rifle (both supporting hand and pistol grip) are not the same POI will not be the same. Each of the above conditions affect the way the rifle recoils.

Competitive offhand shooters often place the buttstock into their shoulder with the left hand(righthanded shooter) to assure shot to shot consistency on butt placement. They also support 60-70% of the weight of the rifle with the hand on the pistol grip; with that elbow raised above shoulder height, this also tends to pull the buttplate tighter into the shoulder.

Pay very close attention as to how you shoot offhand and try to develop a style that you can repeat every shot.

One of the tips Deke gave you will be extremely beneficial in improving your offhand shooting, no matter if the problem is position or flinching. That is dry firing your rifle. Do so 10 -15 minutes a day and your offhand shooting will improve. Dryfiring allows you to see your mistakes, as they are not masked by recoil.

Now, go get that moose (right after you dry fire a bit )

Regards,
hm

Gents,
Thanks again for replies.
I will do some practice, have just bought a 1 kilo canister of powder, and will start loading it tomorrow. The goal is to take atleast 100 bullets through the rifle before the moose hunt start in september. I will also do some dry firing as soon as I can. I also thought about making a shooting stick to make it easier to acheive bench style off hand shooting.

Sincerely
Daniel

The way it was taught to me, assuming a consistent rest, was horizontal stringing was likely due to bedding issues with the rifle and vertical strining due to technique... breathing, trigger management, or as many have suggested consistent cheek weld and mounting of the gun. I will second the statement that you should not drop the rifle to chamber another round (if it's a bolt action) but keep it at your shoulder while you cycle the bolt. This will also speed up your time to battery for the followup shots. Best of luck on your moose hunt!!

Can dryfiring hurt a gun? Some magaizines say not to do so, should you use one of those fake bullets when you dry-fire?

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Can dryfiring hurt a gun? Some magaizines say not to do so, should you use one of those fake bullets when you dry-fire?

I don't think most modern bolt guns are damamged by dry firing but that's just my opinion. I wore out two barrels in two different pre-64 Mod. 70 target rifles (averaged 7500 rounds per barrel) and figure I dry fired at least an equal number of "rounds" through each. Never replaced a firing pin on either guns.

Also dry fired many rounds through a couple of M1 Garands, with a little differen results. Did break one firing pin, but the 90 degree bend on the tail of firing pin on the garand may be a factor????

Any rate, I feel the improvement in my shooting was worth the wear and tear on equipment. JMO. Many recommend use of the snap caps and they probably are a bit of insurance, but for the most part I never bothered.

Regards,
hm

quote:

Originally posted by Huglu:
Gents!

I noticed though, that when I put the rifle hard back to the shoulder just as I do in bench, lift it up, and remove the safety and then shoot standing, then the first shot will hit the 5,1 ring on the moose target. Taking the rifle down to reload and put it back on the shoulder again makes the next shot go 6 o´clock and low in the 3 ring.

Sincerely
Daniel

There may be something else going on. Are these reloads with lots of room in the case? The first technique places the powder on the primer, the second places the powder behind the bullet. Some loads are sensitive to powder position in the case.

Do the same thing on the bench to find out (lift rifle and put on bench on one round, and drop muzzle and put on bench on another). FWIW, Dutch.

Here is a good way to check for a flinch. have your friend load your rifle one shot at a time. Then at various time he will skip putting a round in the chamber for you. If your flinching it will be easier to spot.
Most of the students I teach have problems with verticle strings because they look up to see how they did causing either high or low shots depending if they drop the forearm or the butt. Just some ideas for things you can check.

Calling your shot will improve your shooting SO VERY MUCH. When I practic I concentrate on the following with the idea that when it comes to competition it is all second nature. IF I do 75% of it correctly in the comps or in the field, I RARELY miss out to 500m and this is with a stock Rem700ADL 7-08! I developed this from Tubb's methods and watching/talking to others, and then fitting it all to me.

Feet shoulder width apart or slightly wider, can align open/toward/closed to target, toes angled toward target, 60% weight on left and 40% on right, weight equal across foot or slightly towards toes/ball, smallest right fingers (not thumb and trigger finger) tight as a firm handshake pulling stock into shoulder to absorb recoil & control wobble, right arm horiontal, left hand w/fingers LOOSELY around bolt, left elbow into hip/belly, hip forward and lean backward, head vertical/forward resting on stock, approach target slowly from direction dictated by releasing breath, break trigger when sights pass over target or hold & trust wobble (if your wobbling KNOW that your sights are over the target MOST of the time), if necessary repeat breathing/approach, wait for recoil, call shot (trust spotter?), follow through by getting sights back on target.

You surely don't have to be this detailed for hunting, but have a method, and for the field have a quick method (I shoot a string of 5 shots with the above offhand in 2min which includes talking to my spotter, watching mirage/flags and sometimes making windage/elev adjustments).

Deke.

Deke, great detailed instruction! In the early-mid 60's, my Dad was on an Airforce smallbore free-rifle team and was also a team instructor. He taught me to shoot offhand exactly as Deke has described.

Gents, thanks for further replies.
My shooting position is a bit like described by Deke, but not totally identical.
Since the rifle is a bit heavy and will produce some recoil when shooting it, I would not try that shooting technique with this caliber. I shoot just like that when I shoot off hand with the .22Hornet, but not with the .375. Then it is holding the rifle tight if it is to be kept under control.

When I hold the rifle just as I do in bench, I put 4 shots within 4" on the moose figure 5,1 target ring in well under 30 seconds total time from first to last shot. I shoot the .375 as fast as I shoot my 6,5x55 and with the same group sizes at the same distances.

The only difference is that I have to be much more careful in how I hold the stock of the .375 since it will go low if I do not hold it tight. The recoil from the 6,5x55 can I handle with the right hand and not have the stock to touch the shoulder. So the recoil is an issue, but not to flinching or pulling the shots. It is simply an issue of making the stock and cheek position identical from shot to shot.
I will practice this during the coming days when I have some time to go and burn some powder on the range.

/Daniel

When i was in the military, we got better shots after practicing a technique using a penny!

while standing or any position for that matter, dry firing, have a partner place a penny and balance it on the tip of the barrel as close to the sight as you can get, and fire. the penny should NOT fall off the rifle if you are balanced and NOT flinching. this is the very best way to practice and make sure you are not flinching. also, if you want, do get some of the snap caps when at the range, have your partner load your weapon for you, have him randomly load real rounds and snap rounds in your weapon/rifle/pistol. You will not know when a live round or a snap round is loaded, You will be surprised at what you end up doing!

Hi Huglu

I do a lot of offhand shooting with my 375 and sometimes spending a lot of time setting yourself up and producing target shooting positions can worsen groupings for some people which is easier with smaller calibres like 308/7x64.
You could try shooting faster as this is a hunting scenario.
Start with the rifle butt in your shoulder then quickly but in a controlled fashion bring the muzzle up and once you see the correct sight picture through the scope sqeeze the trigger and fire. Try it to a count of 5
1. Watch the target
2.Bring the rifle up and seat in shoulder
3. Establish the sight picture
4. Fire.
5. Continue to watch the target through the scope as you cycle the action so the second shot would be aready set up at 3.
This is more realistic for hunting, the group may open up a little but the POA/POI should improve.
The trick is to shoot just before the sight picture looks perfect and this is easier to do instintivly. the more you think and analyse a hunting shot the more you are likely to miss the POA or the beast runs away.
By the way where are you in Sweden, I know the Kiruna/Abisko area quite well .

Regards

Mark

Rarely does any gun shoot the same from a rest and from offhand. Just a small thing like not putting the rifle into the shoulder with the same pressure will effect it. Most of us do not shoulder the rifle as tight from sandbags. Then your body mass is distributed different when sitting.
Yes a flinch will make you shoot low, but 4" does not sound like a flinch, more of a wiggle or a peek. Touching off the rifle as it is moving through the bullseye is another reason. Some guys raise the rifle and as it goes through the bull, they fire, others lower the rifle through the bull. The best is to hold as close as you can and when the wiggle is reduced as much as you can get, slowly add pressure so you do not know when it will go off. Making a rifle fire is always a miss.
Watch tightening the stock screws too tight. You can put a bend into the receiver. The front screw should be no tighter then 40 inch pounds and the rear should only be 25 inch pounds. If the rifle has a center screw it should just be snug. Now that IS tight but not overdone. A well bedded and pillar bedded stock can take more pressure but beyond the inch pounds suggested, it is useless and can damage the threads. When working on guns, I always use the torque wrench.

Was the penny used live firing or dry firing?

Deke.

Thanks for further replies!

I will go to the range tomorrow and take another 60 rounds or so through the rifle to try to further establish any differences in offhand vs bench.
I guess that my body is more tight and firm behind the stock in bench as I can keep all muscles ready for the recoil, whereas in free hand, the entire body absorbs the recoil in a much more relaxed way.

Mark,
I live in Kiruna and sometimes also stray away to Abisko, although the national park there prohibits all hunting efforts...
Well, there are still some space left to hunt on, although the regulations get stricter each year.
I think I will go to Rensjön and the mountain Aeurivare to look for ptarmigans and also to see the Tors that are supposed to exist there.

I use a combination of many of the techniques mentioned above. I have tried to lift through the bulls eye and then fire, let it sink and fire. no difference so far. all shots go low.
Shall try to get another 120 shots through it before the 4th september when season opens.

Gents,

Back from the range now...
took the time to chrono some loads as well.
Loaded some oryx accordning to the Lee starting load of 77gn H4350. (of course started at 10% under max and worked up to 77gn in 1gn increments)

Velocity at 15 feet in fps.
375hh 300gn oryx, 77gn H4350
2534 (772m/s)
2760 (841m/s)
2559
2578
2569
2559
Hi 2760
lo 2534
av 2593
es 226
sd 83

It was an extreme spread, and one bullet went considerably faster than the rest, 841m/s, which puts it in the 470NE class of energy. No flat primers, nor sticky extraction or any other pressure signs. Just a considerably sharper kick and the bullet went 5" up and 5" left from POA.
After 35 rounds, my shoulder resigned. It will be blue the next days or so. Group size was not good at all. Had a "group" of 5".

Before using the chrono on these to-be hunting loads, I shot off hand and in bench to chronograph the 200gn plinking load.
That was more consistant.

375hh 200gn sfn 77gn vv150
2754
2783
2766
2777
2772
2777
2789
2749
2789
2783
hi 2789 (850 m/s)
lo 2749 (837 m/s)
av 2773 (845 m/s)
es 40
sd 13

no problem to shoot it in bench with the soft plinking loads, but with the full house loads it will kick like hell if I just force the rifle to lie still. It was not so hard when letting it recoil back and up. I intended to end the session with some off hand shooting, but my shoulder gave up before that. Will reload the fired ones though and shoot all off hand before the hunting season starts... Will also take the puny 6,5x55 as a spare gun if the shoulder will not heal properly until the hunt...

Sincerely
Daniel