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I have had occasion lately to wonder what it takes to change calibers, depending on what kind or brand of press. Single stage presses, of course, changing calibers is zero dollars (over the price of the dies and one shell holder) Turret press caliber swaps is the same as a single stage unless you add the convenience of keeping your dies mounted as a set in their own turret head. (Of course, if you have a turret with enough stations to mount two or three full sets of dies, you can have two or three caliber changes without the cost of added turret heads.) With progressive presses, though the calculation is a bit more complex. Swapping out a tool head (on presses that have removable tool heads) can be pricey, and swapping the shell plate can be time consuming. Having a shell plate/carrier devoted to each caliber makes life simpler, but costs more money. Is there a comparison chart that would allow me to compare Dillon Square Deal, Dillon 550, Hornady L'N'L, Lee Pro-1000, Lee Loadmaster, RCBS, etc in a side-by-side table that would discuss cost and convenience and complications? Or is the only way to go find the hardware one at a time and research all the questions from scratch? Particularly interesting is answering the question, "Where is the break-even point between buying multiple progressive presses dedicated to each caliber vs interchangeable heads/carriers vs changing just the bare minimum of parts (dies, shell plate, primer feed and powder measure)?" The break-even point, of course will depend on what price you put on convenience, swap time compared to the extra parts or presses needed to achieve that speed and convenience. I am using an auto-indexing turret now, but wonder what that simplicity and economy has cost me in terms of speed and convenience. Thanks Lost Sheep | ||
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For pistols I have 3 lee 1000s might buy another one or two. It is nice to just sit down and start to crank out ammo. For rifles I have one 7 place turret and a couple of singles. for shot guns I have 4. | |||
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You also need to take into consideration the number of calibers you load for and the different firearms in each caliber, as well as the number off rounds to be loaded for each caliber/firearm combination. <p> There is no easy solution. Either you go for low cost and low speed single-stage or turret, or higher cost and speed progressives. Or, if cost is no object and nostalgia is a consideration, you could do as I did and have a bunch of presses mounted on my bench dedicated to individual firearms: rifles get loaded on turrets, high-volume pistol rounds go on the Dillon, small batches of special rounds go on the CH 444, and one single-stage is set aside for small-volume priming and bullet pulling. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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hornady LNL ap.. $3 per die for the bushings $20bucks per casehead size on the plate.. all .473 case heads are one plate.. 45acp-375 whelen all .532 are one.. so almost all belted mags rum/ultra/jeffery are a 3rd 9mm and 7.62x25 are the same (bless me!) rigby, weatherby 460 based, lapua are the same 45 colt and 10m require their own plates... gosh, it sounds like i load ALOT of stuff opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Thanks for reminding me of the universality of some shell holders. There are less than a dozen holders for the scores of calibers out there. Unfortunately for me, only one of the calibers I load use the same holder (and that one uses the same dies, 45 Colt and 454 Casull). I load 9mm, .357 mag, .44 Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt/454 Casull and 480 Ruger. Almost no commonality. I just found out today that .40 S&W and 9mm use the same shell holder/shell plate. I suspect, then that 10mm can use the same. Don't know about 9mm Makarov and 380 ACP. Thanks again. I was wondering at what point it would be cost effective and convenience effective to switch to a progressive from the turret I use now. And, in more general terms what to advise others who ask my (our collective) advice on this an other forums. Lost Sheep | |||
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for me.. TIME is irreplacable. i can load, no problem, over 200 rounds per hour, the FIRST hour, likely 300 the next, on my LNL. if its sill setup, i can load a primer tube in minutes, and "whip" out 20 rounds in about 10 minutes, including loading primer and powders. if i have to change.. add 5-7 mins.. with that being 3 minutes to adjust the powder thrower. call it 20 mins, for 20 rounds.. next 180 rounds, in about 40 minutes, if i have all my components ready... pistol, rifle, don't matter opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I don't handload to save money. IMHO loading for cost savings is like riding a bicycle to save shoe leather. The vast majority of people who load ONLY for economic reasons are also people who are not competent to judge the cost/quality of handloaded versus factory loaded ammo. These days factory ammo is a lot better than it was when I started handloading, so even with price increases (remember presses and dies and components have become dearer too) you have to be careful to compare apples to apples when looking at loading vs. buying factory ammo. You have to determine whether or not your rifle--generally a factory off the shelf unit can take advantage of the benefits of hand tailored ammunition built specifically for it. Additionally, you have to have, or develop the skills to build ammo. Do you know which components or dies, presses ant etc. will fit your needs? Do you have the time/money/ patience to experiment to find out? Are you married with children--if so--probably-though not always--not. Handloading is half the fun of shooting if you are serious about accuracy. If you are a CPA, you are likely not---and would be better off buying factory ammo until you find the load that works best in your WalMArt rifle and then buy it in bulk from Cheaper than Dirt. This is not a dig at WM or CPTD, they supply a need--and the cheapskates are better off with them than trying to load on the cheap and having disasters on the bench next to mine at the club--oh wait--these days they're too cheap to join the club and too blind to join the NRA to join the club and--never mind--how did I get up on this soapbox, anyway? hmmm, ah I remember--to get back to the point--it has always been possible to set a die for a particular load and then install and remove it from the press over and over. There are now presses that make this easier--Forster Hornady and Lee make examples as do others. Then there are turret presses which allow you to swap out dies wholesale at the expense of a bit of precision/accuracy. Then there are progressive presses that allow you to do the same and increase production at the expense of a bit more precision/accuracy. What do you want? Economy or accuracy? If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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9 Mak uses the same holder as a 9 or .380. Some shooters have one press sat up for small primers and one for large. I have a Lee LoadMaster for pistol, T-7 for rifle and a RockChucker for odds and ends on my bench "Cost effective" is a relative term. For rifle you can "pay off" a press with in a thousand rounds, I haven't done a break down for pistol. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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Jeffeosso, that is exactly what I was looking for, the insight of experience, backed up with the data that supports it. Your posts are very useful. Now, all I have to do is figure out the parts costs. Progressive presses have a lot more options than simpler ones. (e.g. Choice: buy a complete press for each caliber I reload or a complete carrier for each caliber or change out the parts. Juggling time vs money) My head hurts. Amamnn, I take exception to your characterization of CPAs. True, a bean counter, obsessed with minimizing the cost of everything would be like your CPA. But MY CPA is obsessed with detail, accuracy, precision; all elements valued by the accuracy-obsessed handloader, yes? Consider Oscar Wilde's comment (in the play, "Lady Windemere's Fan" voiced by the character Lord Darlington, "A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.") Part of an accountant's job is to put a dollar value on everything (so the CPA can count it). PUtting a valuation on the intangible (like a miniscule increase in accuracy) may be a fool's errand, but like Hercules and the stables of Augeas, we find a way. Some of us even enjoy this futile search for the ultimatly accurate load. Like George Mallory who explained why he climbs mountains. "Because it's there." Or the hunter. "It's not the kill, it's the HUNT." If you don't understand the attraction of doing the difficult, then indeed, "Why reload?". But I put the question to you; Is searching for the ultimate in economy any different than searching for the ultimate in accuracy? They are both exercises in futility and rewarding (to the particular, peculiar personalities which appreciate them) activities that, to the un-understanding, are completely pointless. Hey! I think I found your soapbox! Thanks for your thoughts, and your assistance in focusing mine. Lost SheepJeffeossoJeffeosso | |||
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I have three Dillon 1050s. Dillon does not make inexpensive caliber conversion kits. I used a Hornady progressive since the first one came out (late '70s?) and never considered any other press as being superior, at least for the same amount of money. For the Hornady L-N-L, you need to change the shell plate (each shell plate covers many different cartridges) and you will want 4-5 bushings for die set-up. When I got my L-N-L, I considered the bushing to be marketing ploy as I had never been bothered by screwing in my dies and adjusting. After using them for a couple of days, I order several 10-bushing packages for all my dies. The press comes with the parts needed for both large and small primers and an excellent powder measure. If you simply HAVE to have a case feeder, you may want the Dillon 650, as it is a PITA to use without a case feeder. However, the caliber conversions will cost a lot more. Also, there are several more parts to the Dillon conversion kits and it is really a lot easier to switch kits than to sort through various kits for the specific parts you need for the cartridge. I consider there to be three classes of presses that I would use: 1) Single stage (i.e., Forster Co-Ax) 2) Turret with auto-index (i.e., the Lee Classic Turret) 3) progressive with at least 5 stations. Any fewer is too restrictive for me. Thus, of the progressive presses I have seen and used, the only ones on my list are the Hdy L-N-L, Dillon 650, and Dillon 1050. | |||
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I personaly couldnt justify the cost of a progressive press. I shoot a lot, but not that much. I have however recently purchased a Lyman T-magII Turret. My thinking however was not the conventional process as I have no intention of adding multipule turret heads. Basically I wanted a turret press to consolidate all of my operations, all functions right at my fingertips, and preserve some bench space as opposed to using a turret like a progressive press. I do feel that it will save me time though. I will keep my powder measure and a Lee auto prime II mounted on the turret which will leave 4 holes remaining for dies. I intend to set all of my dies for specific loads on that one press, (with the exception of my swaging dies). Basicaly I guess I hold to the single stage loading school of thought and am attempting to simply streamline it a bit, as well as simplify my setup. That as opposed to switching over to a full progressive setup. Im in the process of a bit of remodeling in my reloading room, so I cant attest as to any results yet. | |||
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on the cost of a progressive press.. if you load more than 200 rounds a year, it pays for itself... just fork over the jack for an hornady lnlAP and go "how did i EVER do it otherwise" opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I don't think there is a way your pencil will ever prove that. I load waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than that and yet to have much use for one. | |||
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SR4759, I think jeffeosso may have dropped a "0". I load over 2,000 rounds a year and used to use progressives. But since I load a half-dozen calibers, and switch often, the cost of that multiplicity became a second, major factor. Thanks Lost Sheep | |||
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nope, i meant 200, not 2,000 or 20,000. my time is my most limited resource. IF i could produce 60 rounds per minute with a single press, it would take me ~3.5 hours to load 200 rounds. pistol, rifle.. don't matter, your throughput on a single press is about the same. I've tested, and by myself, i can load just about 60 rounds an hour.. deprime, resize - 60... prime, 60... throw charges, testing every 10th, 60 - change dies.. seat bullets, 60, change dies, crimp bullets.. 3.5 ish hours, right, to get 200 rounds... i shot ALOT more than 200 rounds a year.. in fact, i tend to load in batchs of 100 for rifle, and usually 300 for pistol... the TIME SAVED, in 2-3 yeras, more than offsets the cost of the additional gear.. in fact, look at it hard... a good press, an rcbs supreme, is about 130 bucks (not counting shipping) the hornady lnlAP is about 370.. 240 bucks difference. as i count my "Free" time wtha book cost of double my hourly rate, i am paid back just about immediately. and anyone that makes over 70K a year is as well.. 70k=35 bucks an hour.. double that is 70 bucks an hour.. the math is simple i WISH i had learned to reload on a single for about 2 years, then switched to a progressive decades ago. kids, grandkids, hunting, fishing, golf, and work eat all my time.. i like reloading.. but ONLY to support me shooting or hunting.. otherwise, its time wasted to me. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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i laod a bit more than that many different calibers 7-8 minutes, including adjusting powder thrower.. no time lost for me 20 bucks for a shell plate, 10 bucks for bushing.. no offense meant - your TIME is more valuable than 30 bucks, once.
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Your hourly rate means nothing in your leisure time. First deduct the funds lost to taxes. Second quit pissing away your time on this stupid forum if it is so valuable that you can't stand reloading. | |||
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this is your opinion. you are welcome to it. I disagree, on several levels. i hav TIME, i choose to use it how i see fit. do what? please share your experiences with changing over calibers on progressive presses, rather than distract us with this, k? your opinion, again. i don't share it again, your opinion. sorry to hear you feel AR is stupid. where did *I* say i can't "stand" reloading? i didn't.. this is, again, your opinion
interesting.. please share your depth of reloading ON PROGRESSIVE PRESSES and i'll be happy to discuss. from your post above, you have zero experience with them. I am sharing my experience and my rationale .. you don't agree? hey, that's great.. that's YOUR opinion... opinion vary opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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When I first read your post, I thought to myself, “That’s extreme!”. I read it a couple more times and see you have some valid points and within your performance parameters it makes perfect sense. This is GREAT. Perspectives and approaches other than my own broaden my horizons. Exclusive of setup or caliber swaps, on a single stage press, I can produce 50 rounds per hour. On an auto-indexing turret, I do about 150 per hour, including keeping the primer feed full. I put a premium on having a compact setup and my time is a lot lower value than yours so my conclusions are different than yours, but if my personal parameters matched yours, I would do just as you do. Regarding SR4759's comments. I don't think I understand them. Putting a value on my leisure time allows me to make quantitative decisions about where I will spend that time. I spend time on this forum, too and enjoy it. SR4759 maybe doesn't. His comment about WWII inclines me to cut him a little slack. Lost Sheep | |||
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Lost Sheep, I tend to put a price tag on my time, as i have to know if i am putting and getting my best value for time spent. Let's face it, hornady (and many others) makes darn good hunting ammo these days. If it wasn't either cost or satisfaction effective, i wouldn't bother loading for some rounds. For example, I haven't loaded 9mm in decades, due to cost. However, i am re-evaluating this if we should go back to shooting alot of 9mm .. at 10¢ a round, it wasn't worth my TIME to pick up the brass and reload it.. now, however, that changes. another great example, my 7x64, is loaded by hornady in the same bullets and brass I would use. at 20 bucks a box, it was cheaper to buy a couple hundred loaded rounds than to buy norma brass -- no joke, norma is currently 28.50 bucks for 20 pieces .. hornady loaded ammo is 19.99 .. prvi is 13.59! but not the bullets i prever http://www.grafs.com/retail/ca...search/keywords/7x64 opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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For me the basic reasons are: 1. Savings. I started reloading when I was fourteen with a Lyman Tong Tool for a sporterized 25 Krag. Lots of that ammo at the local stores. Since getting out of the Army, I have probably shot close to two hundred thousand rounds of ammunition. Mostly cast and reloaded. Lots of IPSC matches. Lots of Schuetzen and BPCR matches as well, then there's practice. 2. Versatility. I like to just go plinking. Sometimes a hundred rounds of my own cast bullets of an afternoon out making gravel out of rocks. 3. Necessity. Not much factory 8x58R ammunition out there for my Danish Krag-Jorgenson Model of 1889. Or 7,9x56.8 for my Haenel chambered in the .318" diameter bullet. Or eight or nine other rifles I have. 4. Relaxation. I enjoy casting bullets, and the process of loading my own ammunition. Someone started a  contest about the value of their time. It's a hobby, the value of your time is only measured by results. If that is not the yardstick you use to measure the value of your time, you would be better off putting that extra time in at work and buying factory ammo. A wise old man once told me "A hobby is something that you pour hours into on a regular basis and call it fun; that they could not pay you enough to do at a job..." | |||
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Hit the nail on the head. I just got a Dillon with enough stuff for all my pistol calibers (9mm/38super, 38/357, 40/10mm, 45). Wish I did it 20 years ago.
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Rich, i grant you, there's some wisdom there. and then there's the fact that most people's avocation couldn't pay the bills, which is why some don't count it. If its not cost effective for me to load, i simple dont load that round. 9mm? 5 years ago, i'd laugh and ask if you were kinding, as i am not an ipsc shooter... 500 jeffery? at $20+ per loaded round, you are darn tootin i'll reload it. its not a one size fits all. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I appreciate that time is our most valuable asset. That is why I have things like an air compressor, an impact wrench, a floor jack.. I really dislike working on cars. So when I do it I want to get it over with ASAP. But reloading, that is one of the things I WANT to do in my free time.. Its like therapy..   | |||
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Ah.... There is a salient point. I rather ENJOY the repetitive stroking of the press, turning out (near) identical rounds of ammunition. What I DON'T ENJOY is the process of switching calibers, which, with my progressive presses always involved tinkering and adjusting and more "down time" that I regarded as non-productive. Hence the reason I started this thread. Your post highlighted the difference, for which I thank you. It remains a different mystery why I do enjoy tinkering with some things but not others. Lost Sheep | |||
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Your most limited resource??? I think the .375 H&H Vs the .375 Ruger thread proves otherwise. If you need more time it is easy to lay off of the forum. Time wasted thread
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You said it was wasted time right here >>>kids, grandkids, hunting, fishing, golf, and work eat all my time.. i like reloading.. but ONLY to support me shooting or hunting.. otherwise, its time wasted to me. <<<< Now if it is wasted time and your time is SO precious why do you participate in silly threads like the 375 HH vs 375 Ruger. If you like the progressives that is one thing but don't use a fictitious "it saves me so much time argument" because you apparently have the time to waste. By the way 1. I have had a Dillion since the 450 came out of you want to figure out how long ago that was. 2. You have to resort to compromises to load large rifle rounds. Tell everyone what those coping techniques are so they will know what they are dealing with. Tell everyone where you have to deviate from best known practice to utilize a progressive. | |||
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