I do way more reading and learning than I do posting here but I'm at a wall. I have been reloading for about 10 years now, mostly hunting, varmint and light hole punching. All of the rifles I've reloaded for (both mine and others, factory and custom) without fail will shoot a 1" group or better. Except this Ruger M 77 in .270, and it just will not get below 2". My buddies are saying "that is good enough", lalala. I just can't except it (yet) that 2" is the best a modern hunting rifle with very good reloads will shoot.
I have tried 4 powders and 3 different bullets (this is getting expensive). And without listing everything I've tried between different powders, bullets, and OAL I'm looking for ideas. Maybe something simple I haven't thought of yet or just someone else to say "hey man the gun just may not shoot any better than that". Thanks ahead of time for all the help and comments as always.

Well if it's a Ruger M 77 my first question is:

Did you freefloat the barrel?

Here's the load I've had work in every .270 I've tried it in.

Winchester brass.
CCI 200 Primer
H4831
130gr/140gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.
OAL: magazine length.

Work up to max. That' usually around 60gr for the 130's, and a little less for the 140's.

my oal starting point is -.0275 .. no where CLOSE to touching.

James260,
I have the exact Ruger & caliber. I put a new trigger in it (came with a very heavy factory trigger)& that helped some.

Most times I get 1.5"-2" groups on a good day. I have tried 3 powders, different weight bullets, different lengths, etc. Never could consistantly get 1" or under.

When I get time, I might free float the barrel.

My buddy also says I should leave well enough alone & that the gun is not capable of 1" groups. He might be right.

I got frustrated & put it on the shelf for a year.

I do have better luck with the Sierra bullets....less luck with the Hornady.

like Antelope Sniper said, H4831 and 130 grainers should do the trick - this is the quintessential .270 load, a la Jack O'Connor. I've also had good luck with RL 22 and 150 grain partitions in my .270. If this doesn't work, the gun MAY NOT shoot better than that, as is. Check all the usual suspects - action screws, scope and base tightness, barrel crown uniformity, free floated barrel, etc. to improve overall accuracy.
E Dawg

James:

I had a similar problem with a M77 in .280 Rem. I had a handful of different bullets on hand from previous 7mm loading projects, ranging from 139 to 175 gr. Using H or IMR 4350 or 4831 I was getting the same kind of results as you, and getting equally frustrated. Then I read somewhere, probably here on AR, about good results in the .280 using RL19. I tried it, and it worked. It doesn't seem to matter what bullet I use, as long as it has RL19 behind it. I now have loads with 6 different bullets in the 139 to 175 gr. weight range that average about 1" for the first 3 shots, and 1¼" to 1½" for 5 shots.

Of course, RL19 may not be the 'magic' powder for you, but there may be a powder out there that your rifle will like. You just have to find it. Certainly, if I get into this situation again I will pick one good bullet, and then work up loads with as many different suitable powders as possible in search of the one that works best.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

I'm with Antelope Sniper on this one all the way. I've used H4831 with 130g NBT for years out of an early M77 with the tang safety.

Tried as I might with a floated barrel and messing around with powders and bullets I ended up with a 2.00" shooter. As my dad would say as he looked at his group on a paper plate, "Any of those shots would kill game". He was right. It did put a lot of game down over the years and today it lives in Colorado and Montana taking deer and elk.

I came to the conclusion that it would take a new barrel to make a real shooter out of it and by that time my rifle collection was growing so I tucked it away and gave it to my son and daughter in law. She really loves it on elk and has taken 2 nice average size bulls with it.

<1" groups indicate consistancy. Everything's the same all the time, stock, scope, brass, primers, bullets, powder charges (you've tried several of both).

Yeah, it could well be the barrel or the crown, too.

I'd reco going back to check the sighting system, mounts, rings, screws & scope. Ruger mounts & rings are pretty straightforward.

Then "float the barrel"; (without getting rid of any wood yet) by simply raising the action/barrel enough in the stock to ensure it's clearing any potential trouble spots. This can be done with a coupla washers (fitted, that is filed down to fit neatly, aluminium can washers, business cards, etc) inside the action screws although the angled front screw will require a bit of fiddling to get right.

Ought to let you realize if the stock is an issue.

I'm with the guys above though; if H-4831 & a 130 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip won't shoot outa .270 Winchester that would certainly get me scratching my head, too.

Thanks for all the info. The one thing I haven't done was float the barrel. It is something else to try and the action is not bedded. However most of the other "quick fixes/checks" I've done: Base screws, ring screws, stock screws all checked; Replaces the factory trigger; and had a friend check the crown and scope the bore. I have tried a Sierra 140gr Gameking and 130gr Gameking as well as a Hornady 140gr SST. Have tried IMR 4831, IMR 4350, and I can't remember off the top of my head (it's wrote down) that the Hodgdon powder was I tried, I don't think it was H4831. and I have Tried OALs of .015 and .020 off. (Maybe go out to .025?) Bed the Action? Free Float the Barrel? Or try the 130gr w/ H4831 before anything else? I really would like to shoot a 140 gr bullet if it will stabilize it though. Again thanks for the help!

I usually don't shoot a new/used rifle until I free-float the barrel, glass bed (at least) the recoil lug and adjust the trigger.

I agree with the 4831/130gr combo in my 270Win. I tried to use RL22 with a 130gr Barnes TSX because I got 3,200+fps with it. I also got horizontal stringing. I re-bedded the rifle and had the same horizontal stringing. Went back to H4831SC and accuracy is superb, but I lost 50-75fps.

What is really chapping me is I'll have a three or four shot group with three all snugged up to each other and then a fourth maybe a half inch away from those three. Then comes the evil flier, Which is as far as two inches away from the pretty little three hole group and a inch and a half from the fourth. (keep in mind they don't always go in the order. The flier may be the first shot or the fifth.)

Ruger 77's are not exactly famed for their gilt-edged accuracy and it may be that nothing you can do will make it better than a two MOA rifle. But some judicious fiddling is worth a try.

Instead of going through the trouble, expense, and value depreciation of rebedding the action or floating the barrel (these modificatons, whether beneficial or not, always knock down a gun's resale value), instead try installing a temporary barrel pressure point in the fore end. Lots of sporter-weight barrels shoot best with about 10-pounds or so of up-pressure within about 2 inches of the fore end tip. You can use some of those folded business cards suggested in a previous post, or even layers of electical tape. It is worth a try and costs nothing but the effort.

I hate to tell you this, but I sold an M77 in 270 (my last Ruger rifle) for the same reason in the 70s. I bought a Rem 700 BDL in 270 and it's shot nickel sized 3 shot groups for almost 40 years now. I've had good luck with Win M70s and CZ 550s as well. I've heard the front screw tension is kind of critical with the Rugers, and the new Hawkeyes seem to be getting very good reviews. If H4831 and 130g Nosler Partitions won't shoot, it's hard to imagine what will.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I hate to tell you this, but I sold an M77 in 270 (my last Ruger rifle) for the same reason in the 70s.

Yeah and I hate to hear it because I have a new M77 in 06 that I haven't even put glass on yet, (not enough hours in the day) that I'm afraid will not shoot.(This is one of those guns that the wife says "why did you buy that one. you haven't even shot it and you bought it how long ago?") But I have more experience with 06's so maybe it will either be a diamond in the rough or I can squeeze tight groups out of it.
The thought has crossed my mind to sell it now though

I will see if I can figure out how to put pics on here and show ya'll the groups. Frustrating is an understatement! There are two or three that are tucked in so nice the two that just will not get with the program. You'll see!

quote:

I hate to tell you this, but I sold an M77 in 270 (my last Ruger rifle) for the same reason in the 70s.

Those early M77's used barrels of highly variable quality sourced from an outside contractor. Current production M77's are said to have much better barrels, but it's still a mass-produced rifle which sometimes shoot well and sometimes doesn't. I wouldn't give up on either of your 77's until you do a little more work with them.

James260:
I had the same problem with the Ruger, .270 Win. I owned. Never could get a consistant 1" group. Pretty close at around 1 1/2 " or so but.....
Put a Timney trigger on it, glass bedded the action & free floated the barrel still about 1 1/2 - 2 ". I kept it for a number of years and hunted with it but when I came across a Pre-64, Mod.70, the Ruger hit the bricks south, PDQ.
My suggestion to you is to perhaps change out the trigger, glass bed the action and free float the barrel. Then, start with the "Accurate" powder and charge listed in the Sierra reloading manual. Use the Sierra bullet in the weight you wish to hunt with AND seated to their OAL. IF, after perhaps adjusting the powder charge slightly up and down, you don't acheive the desired accuracy, I'd send it south, fast. Then, I'd get a Win. Extreme Weather in .270 and wouldn't look back. In addition to my .270 Win, I have an Extreme Weather in .270 WSM - love it. Going back to your Ruger, pay special attention to the action screws. I believe the front, angled screw should be tightened as tight as possible. The rear quite snugged down and the middle screw just tight. Check with the factory. Also, be certain the barrel is absolutely clean - no copper fouling. Use Barnes copper cleaner if necessary.
In short, don't even think of fighting it. I did this with my first .270 WSM (not a Ruger, BTW) and regretted it. Wasted lottsa time & money. If that rifle won't consistantly group, it's not worth having.
good luck.
Bear in Fairbanks

The O.P. stated he tried three different bullets. I have to ask if they were all boattails. My Ruger MK-II simply did not like boattails. As soon as I went to flat base bullets, it shot MOA 3-shot groups.

For a hunting rifle (and that is really all a MK-II is suited for) I'm not sure why you're messing with 4-shot groups.

My Ruger liked a forend pressure point. I built up a 2" long bedding pad about 1" back from the forend. This was with a B&C Carbelite barrel.

I dunno what bullets the Op used in his testing, but if the gun doesn't shoot decently with H4831 and the 150 gr. Sierra game King, I's suspect something was radically wrong. I use that bullet, but with a different powder that's no longer available in 4 rifles chambered to the .270. The only one that isn't sub-MOA is the Ruger #1 that I got into cheap because the previous owner couldn't make it shoot. Even that one once I tinkered with it a bit will do 1.25" which for all practical purposed it just fine for big game.
Someone mentioned the proper tightening of the stock screws and that could be a factor According to the directions that came with my inch pound Fat Wrench wood or synthetic stocks not piller bedded should be torqued to 40 inch pounds. On rifles like the Winchester M70 and Ruger M77 that have that third screw, I torque that middle screw to 20 inch pounds and that seems to work OK.
If you haven't free floated the barrel yet, try my "poor man's free float system". Take an old credit card and cut two shims, ine to sit on the flat behind the recoil lug and the other under the tang at the rear of the receiver. Be careful to not lose the little pieces of the safety if you gun is a tang safety model. Then, properly torque the screws and see how the gun shoots groups. You'll most likely have to resight the gun in due to the changes in the way the barrel and stock come together. If groups improve, you have your answer. FWIW, on a couple of rifles I've just left the shims in place and used them that way. This way it's a totally unaltered rifle. Your choice.
FWIW, one that Ruger #1A that didn't shoot so well, a tight shim from a credit card at the forearm tip brought groups down from 4" to 1.25".
Give that 150 gr. Sierra Game King a try as well. It's an accurate bullet and works just fine on game as small as antelope and big Mule Deer.I once had a Ruger M77 tang safety model in 7x57 that didn't group worth a damn. I shimmed the action as mentioned above and itwent from a 2.5" gun to 1.1" on average.
I haven't looked at a MkII Ruger but the several tang safety M77s and 20 #1's that I have do not have the interior wood sealed with anything. I learned that the hard ay o an elk hunt when I got caught in a heavy rain storm in Eastern Oregon. Two days later I got a shot at a nice bull and that #1B in .300 mag. missed three times before he got out of sight. When I got home, I took it to the range and that gun was shooting over 12" high at 100 yards. I ried it of and on and it was squirrely for almost 6 years before if settled down and started shooting 1.0" groups again. Just something else to look out for.
Paul B.

quote:

FWIW, one that Ruger #1A that didn't shoot so well, a tight shim from a credit card at the forearm tip brought groups down from 4" to 1.25".

Paul, I've had a similar experience on SEVERAL Ruger M77's....except I don't mess with the credit card. I have yet to see one pre-hawkeye M77 with a decent float fm the factory.

First thing I do with one is pull it out of the wood, float the barrel, and firmly, but evenly hand tighten the mounting screws. Some were pretty hard to brake loose, so I suspect they were over torqued at the factory.

And if the scope is a piece of garbage, I throw that away and put on something decent.

Those few things and the load I memtioned, has worked for me every time. If these things don't it might be time to either call Ruger.

I sold My Ruger MKII RL for the same reason,I could never make it into a tack driver,I put a Timmeny trigger in it also(Kind of tricky to do) ....It's the nature of the beast ! Ruger quality has gone down hill since old Bill has passed ....BB34

I shoot a completely standard, unmodified, 2010 M77 Hawkeye in .270 & with my moderate ability see sub MOA, 5 shot groups as the norm.
That's the laminate stock with the pressure point at the tip.
H4831sc for both 130 & 150gr Sierra Gamekings - 58 & 56gr respectively.
I get the same sub MOA groups from 90 & 100gr bullets using Re15.
If I thought bedding the action & free floating the barrel would be worthwhile, then I'd do it but that isn't the case for me & this rifle.

I've also shot an M77 MkII heavy barrel in .308 that produces patterns, rather than groups.

It is frustrating trying to diagnose a problem like this. All the tips suggested are great places to start. However, I hate to ask this but, have you tried any factory ammunition? If so, do you get the same issue. I'm not saying that your handloads are bad, just making a suggestion. Also, is this a new rifle or did you buy it used? As others have said, every now and then you'll get a rifle that just won't do as well as it should.

tatwell, yeah I get the same results with factory ammo. and it is a older rifle that I bought from a good fried. it hadn't been shot much and was taken care of.

But I am gonna try floating the barrel and a H4831 before I do anything else. I'll keep everyone advised.

By the way, I have always used a five shot group for load development. (was told that by one of Sierra Tech guys back when I first started reloading) So what do most of you use? 3, 4, or 5 shot groups?

Always five shots. I usually know when I've pulled one & thus can discount it without invalidating the group.

James260:
Usually when I work up a load I start with a 3 shot group. If something looks promising, I'll do another 3 shot group. Assuming that load also looks good, then I agree, try a 5 shot group. It seems that invariably, a lousy rifle and/or load will produce a good group then show it's true colors next. Had that happen with my first .270 WSM. You should confirm that you have a good load/rifle by shooting repeatable groups.
Good luck.
Bear in Fairbanks

James
Since it is an older rifle it may have been off the stock. Ruger says torque the angled bedding screw to 95 inch/pounds. Then hand tighten the 2 screws that hold the trigger guard in equally and tight. Then back the front trigger screw off approximately 1/8th of a turn. Try that and see if it doesn't improve. I've had great luck making non-shooting Rugers do amazing things.