I am getting inconsistent results with Reloader 15 that I can’t explain. I am doing load development for my new 404 Jeffrey – working with one bullet (Hornady 400 gr DGX) and 3 powders: RE 15, IMR 4064 and H 4831.

Load data for this classic is minimal at best. My Barnes manual gave me the starting loads for the RE 15 and 4064, I found reliable info for 4831 online.
All chrono tests were done at 90F at 7 am. All brass was new. CCI 250 primers. Powder was weighed on my RCBS ChargeMaster after initial calibration. No changes in OAL or crimp.
Each test consisted of 3 rounds for each powder. Since all loading was consecutive, and the results from the 4064 and 4831 have been consistent, I believe they can be viewed as controls.
My goal is to work up slowly over the course of a year from the classic 2125 fps velocity for a 400 gr bullet to as close to 2300 as I can tolerate to build tolerance to recoil. I have had no problem shooting at 2125.

The basic issue is that increases in the RE 15 load have not shown a consistent increase in velocity.

I started with 69.0 grains. This gave me 2130 fps, which is pretty close to the Barnes manual. With an ES of around 10-15, I was quite happy. I did notice a tiny bit of primer flattening. 69 grains is nowhere near what is needed to fill the case, and many people on the Accurate Reloading forum were using polyester fiberfill to keep the powder in place.

I decided to bump the RE 15 load to 69.3 grains, expecting about a 20 fps increase in speed. What I got was a 30 fps DROP instead. I did use a bit of fiberfill in this load, and I noticed that this relieved the slight primer flattening, so I considered this to be a reasonable trade off at this point. My other two loads were spot on where I expected them to be.

I then bumped the Reloader to 70 grains. My ES went up to 50, and my speed averaged 2100. This was a 0.7 boost in the load and only a 10 fps increase in speed over my last effort – but still 30 fps under the 69.0 g load.

The Reloader is the first load I shoot of the day, followed by the 4831 and the 4064. I then fire one round of my original load of 69.0 grains to compare the way it clocked the previous week. Yesterday test was 40 fps less than my original attempt.

The 4831 load is currently 81 grains, which require no filler. The 4064 is the faster powder, already giving me 2180 with 68.5 grains and a bit of filler.

I shoot once a week with this rifle, and am going to bump the load up another grain and see what happens.

Can anyone add any clarity why this powder is yielding this kind of inconsistency? I have pretty much controlled all other aspects of loading and shooting (as best as I can).

So why not just stick with the 69.0 load of RL 15? I would also try using some 3/8" or 1/2" backer rod in place of the fiberfill. I get more consistent results with all that I have tried it in.

Oh, and Backer Rod is much easier and quicker to use.

Those are some awful mild loads for the 404...maybe erratic burning?

I ran my Jeffery at 2400fps with a 400 grain bullet. I think that took about 80 grains of Re-15. Very consistant.

You are getting erratic burn for sure. You did not mention if you are crimping the bullet? With such a low density load this will be mandatory due to the primer blowing the powder charge up against the base of the bullet and moving the bullet before peak pressure is reached.
If you are crimping a filler would be very helpful as well.

When you get a DECREASE in velocity with an INCREASE in powder weight, it is most likely that some of the primer flattening is due to part of the powder charge detonating, which happens with low load densities.
Either increasing the powder charge to a better load density, or using a filler, will make it go away.
I had tremendous trouble in my 505 Gibbs with RL15 because I wasn't using enough filler packed at the right amount, I'm sure I nearly had a S.E.E. at one point, even heavier and heavier crimps didn't help.

Cheers.

i have seen, not alwys but certainly repeatable, decreases in vels then a big jump when i when up .. usually have sooty necks as well

did you have flattened primers or protruding primers...?

You need to fill the case both for velocity and accuracy, and IMR-4831 and H4831 is your best bet and if you have a good modern gun or Mauser 98 your really underloading it..I have found a 400 gr. bullet at 2350 to 2450 is about ideal for the 404 Jefferys. I have been shooting the 404 for over 50 years best guess.

81 grs. of 4831 with a 400 gr. bullet is a good load for a 450-400, not a 404 Jefferys whose powder capacity is for all practical purposes that of a 416 Rigby.

The load that I have used for years is 90 gr. to 93 grs. of 4831 for right at 2300 to 2400 FPS, its always been the most accurate. 95 grs has always been the max load for my rifles and most of them shot best with that load..Mike at North Fork tested these loads and found them to be excellent. He got a bit less velocity in the max loads in his test barrel than I got in my Lothar Walthar barrels, and he got less pressure with 4831 than with other powders tested. I found 4831 to be the best powder by far in the 404 and the 450-400s both 3.25 and 3.00 inch.

RL-15 with a filler has always been a distant second.

I do not load this cartridge but I think Ray has pretty well pegged it for you above.

My references indicate your top load of 70 grains of RL-15 is below suggested starting loads and that it will leave a lot of extra room in the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

81 grs. is a good load for a 450-400, not a 404 Jefferys whose powder capacity is for all practical purposes that of a 416 Rigby.

ray,
could you clarify this, before some folks think you meant something you didn't --

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

81 grs. of 4831 with a 400g gr. bullet is a good load for a 450-400, not a 404 Jefferys whose powder capacity is for all practical purposes that of a 416 Rigby.

ray,
could you clarify this, before some folks think you meant something you didn't --

OK I clarified. I thought it was clear based on his post, but maybe not.

My experience in the 404 Jeffery is 68 grains of RL-15/Norma 203B with a Hornady 400grain DGX should give you about 2150 out of a 26 inch barrel.
I use Knoch foam type plugs to fill up the rest of the case to the base of the bullet. No plugs? Use Poli-fill. Just fill up the case!

I have found RL-15/Norma 203B to provide very consistent velocities when used in this manner. Felt recoil is reduced.

Just my experiences!

quote:

Originally posted by Rapidrob:
You are getting erratic burn for sure. You did not mention if you are crimping the bullet? With such a low density load this will be mandatory due to the primer blowing the powder charge up against the base of the bullet and moving the bullet before peak pressure is reached.
If you are crimping a filler would be very helpful as well.

They are well crimped.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
My experience in the 404 Jeffery is 68 grains of RL-15/Norma 203B with a Hornady 400grain DGX should give you about 2150 out of a 26 inch barrel.
I use Knoch foam type plugs to fill up the rest of the case to the base of the bullet. No plugs? Use Poli-fill. Just fill up the case!

I have found RL-15/Norma 203B to provide very consistent velocities when used in this manner. Felt recoil is reduced.

Just my experiences!

I used Polyfill for both the RE-15 and 4064 loads. The 4064 loads were consistent as the loads increased the RE 15 was not.

I started with 2150 and a jumping off place where the recoil was acceptable. My goal has been to work up to 2300 slowly so I could adjust to the increase in recoil over a period of time.

ggruber,

I am sure the 4064 was more consistent at higher velocity. I find that my Mauser M03 in 404 Jeffery can kill on both ends if I load it hot enough. 2150 is more than enough for this recoil wuss!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
ggruber,

I am sure the 4064 was more consistent at higher velocity. I find that my Mauser M03 in 404 Jeffery can kill on both ends if I load it hot enough. 2150 is more than enough for this recoil wuss!

While I am quite comfortable at 2150, This may be my one and only Cape Buff hunt, so if I can work my way up to 2300, I probably will feel a bit more confident.

I am currently tolerating 30 fps increase per week. RE 15 so far if more accurate than 4064 or 4831, but that of course may change as velocities increase.

The humidity has been brutal down here, so I am a week behind in my testing right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
You need to fill the case both for velocity and accuracy, and IMR-4831 and H4831 is your best bet and if you have a good modern gun or Mauser 98 your really underloading it..I have found a 400 gr. bullet at 2350 to 2450 is about ideal for the 404 Jefferys. I have been shooting the 404 for over 50 years best guess.

81 grs. of 4831 with a 400 gr. bullet is a good load for a 450-400, not a 404 Jefferys whose powder capacity is for all practical purposes that of a 416 Rigby.

The load that I have used for years is 90 gr. to 93 grs. of 4831 for right at 2300 to 2400 FPS, its always been the most accurate. 95 grs has always been the max load for my rifles and most of them shot best with that load..Mike at North Fork tested these loads and found them to be excellent. He got a bit less velocity in the max loads in his test barrel than I got in my Lothar Walthar barrels, and he got less pressure with 4831 than with other powders tested. I found 4831 to be the best powder by far in the 404 and the 450-400s both 3.25 and 3.00 inch.

RL-15 with a filler has always been a distant second.

I have seen your load recommendation before for this powder. I backed off from your load to verify that I could shoot something this stout. I will probably stop when I reach 2300 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by ggruber:

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
ggruber,

I am sure the 4064 was more consistent at higher velocity. I find that my Mauser M03 in 404 Jeffery can kill on both ends if I load it hot enough. 2150 is more than enough for this recoil wuss!

While I am quite comfortable at 2150, This may be my one and only Cape Buff hunt, so if I can work my way up to 2300, I probably will feel a bit more confident.

I am currently tolerating 30 fps increase per week. RE 15 so far if more accurate than 4064 or 4831, but that of course may change as velocities increase.

The humidity has been brutal down here, so I am a week behind in my testing right now.

I agree! RL-15/Norma 203B produces accurate loads for me. I use it for almost everything!
Good luck on your hunt!

I finally made it out to the range for the first time in two weeks. Apparently, the RE-15 needed firm packing with fiberfill to settle down. Velocities appear to be more consistent now.

The temperature dropped twenty degrees since my last shoot, and with that in mind, it appears as if 4064 is the least temperature sensitive of the 3 powders, but from an accuracy standpoint, H-4831 is the clear winner.

At 83 grains I am still far short of my goal of 2300 fps (it clocked in at 2077 for 72 degrees F), but I will work it up over time so I can adjust to the increase in recoil.