I generally weigh out each load of powder. However, I know I can use a powder measure - calibrate it to throw a specific charge weight and then just continue to use the "volume method".

My question is: is there any accuracey differences between the two methods and if so, which method gives better accuracey results?


Thanks

Big question. Depends on cartridge, what it's used for, powder, type of measure. Things like that. Point-blank Benchrest shooters load straight from an accurate measure and have been known to shoot some small groups.

Ray

over thinking it.

if a specific volume of powder X weighs Y, then, in shorthand, one may say your thrower issues Y weight of a powder.

and if Y weight is what you are after, the VOLUME, as compared to every other powder, is immaterial.

it might be easier to think mass/volume than "weight" ... its not any different, in a scientific thought, but it might help.

Essentially, you are adjusting the volume to provide a weight .. and if you use that powder, you should get nearly the same weight from that volume ... however, that volume doesn't RELATE to the weight of any other powder, and has to be readjusted.

As an experiment, you could get the set of Lee powder dippers and go from there. Use a dipper that comes closest to your favorite powder charge for your most accurate rifle. Weigh the charge in the dipper then load a number of cartridges from the dipper and the same number using your powder scale. See what happens then. Justa an idea. Bear in Fairbanks

What Jeffeoso said.

A lot depends upon your specific powder measure, powder type, accuracy expectations and reloading technique. Lotsa variables, huh?

A quality well-designed powder measure is normally capable of throwing BALL powders to a precision level of ~ 0.1/grain, if operated in a consistent manner. This is what the Benchrest boys do, and their accuracy is second to none. Note the very important words 'ball' and 'consistent' in the previous sentence, this is where the rubber meets the road! If you're using IMR powders and/or haven't yet trained yourself to operate the drop to ensure maximum filling every single time then your accuracy will suffer.

Ball powders fill the drop chamber much more uniformly and completely than IMR powders and that's one reason they're so popular, a relative tyro can still throw consistent charges without much instruction or experience and the operation doesn't take nearly as much time and attention-to-detail as when using the IMR powders. I personally use IMR powders with a powder drop but I can achieve ~0.2/grain precision with my drop and my technique. This allows me to achieve sub-MOA accuracy with sporter-weight rifles but would not be adequate IMO for any serious accuracy expectations below 1/2 MOA. A drop-weight range spread greater than ~0.2/grain is, IMO, too much for me to have full confidence in the results. JMO.
Regards, Joe

My powder measure is quite inconsistant with Varget/AR2208. I have overcome the problem by attaching a vibrator to the hopper. It now throws pretty consistant charges. It's to do with the powder packing. All I have to do is pause at the top of the stroke to let the powder compact fully. It no longer matters whether the hopper is full or just about to run out.

quote:

What Jeffeoso said.

quote:

. . . A quality well-designed powder measure is normally capable of throwing BALL powders to a precision level of ~ 0.1/grain, if operated in a consistent manner. This is what the Benchrest boys do, and their accuracy is second to none. Note the very important words 'ball' and 'consistent' in the previous sentence . . .

Joe

Not to get into a pi$$ing match but Benchrest shooters do not use ball powders. The stick powders give better accuracy even though the thrown charges may not be as uniform as the ball powders. The secret is in the quality measures and a consistent technique. The smaller grained powders such as V V also help.

The majority of point-blank Benchrest shooters go by volume and probably could not tell you how much their charges weigh if their life depended on it.

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:

quote:

. . . A quality well-designed powder measure is normally capable of throwing BALL powders to a precision level of ~ 0.1/grain, if operated in a consistent manner. This is what the Benchrest boys do, and their accuracy is second to none. Note the very important words 'ball' and 'consistent' in the previous sentence . . .

Joe

Not to get into a pi$$ing match but Benchrest shooters do not use ball powders. The stick powders give better accuracy even though the thrown charges may not be as uniform as the ball powders. The secret is in the quality measures and a consistent technique. The smaller grained powders such as V V also help.

The majority of point-blank Benchrest shooters go by volume and probably could not tell you how much their charges weigh if their life depended on it.

Ray

right on roger

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:

quote:

. . . A quality well-designed powder measure is normally capable of throwing BALL powders to a precision level of ~ 0.1/grain, if operated in a consistent manner. This is what the Benchrest boys do, and their accuracy is second to none. Note the very important words 'ball' and 'consistent' in the previous sentence . . .

Joe

Not to get into a pi$$ing match but Benchrest shooters do not use ball powders. The stick powders give better accuracy even though the thrown charges may not be as uniform as the ball powders. The secret is in the quality measures and a consistent technique. The smaller grained powders such as V V also help.

The majority of point-blank Benchrest shooters go by volume and probably could not tell you how much their charges weigh if their life depended on it.

Ray

Very true. I can throw just as accurate a charge as the scale will weigh. It's a good emasure & consistant technique.

BR shooter use a powder measure that has click adjustment like the Jones etc. Most BR shooters weight powder to click adjstment so they know how much powder they are using without having to weight each time. You have to remember the 6ppc uses appr 30gr of powder.

Here something from the BR site that might help
7:30AM 62 deg 80%
53 clicks = 28.8 grains
High 3282, Low 3240, Avg. 3262, SD 14

8:00AM 69 deg 73%
53.5 Clicks = 29.1 grains
High 3324, Low 3280, Avg. 3300, SD 12

8:30AM 70 deg 67%
54 clicks = 29.4 grains
High 3343, Low 3309, Avg. 3321, SD 12

9:00AM 72deg 63%
54.5 clicks = 29.7 grains
High 3364, Low 3336, Avg. 3349, SD 8

9:30AM 75deg 60%
55 clicks = 30.0 grains
High 3412, Low 3369, Avg. 3384, SD 13

IF you operate your measure uniformly, with proper powders, it should be close to 1/10th of a grain consistency. In such a case, accuracy will be pretty much the same as if you weighed each charge.

The guys who tickle me the most about this are some black powder shooters who weigh their charges!

It may interest some of you to know that I just got out of a pissing match with some single shot benchrest shooters, national champions, who assured me that their ~0.10/grain drop precision was due to their use of ball powders, and if I would just change to ball powders then I, too, could throw to 0.10/grain. I ain't gonna argue the point with anyone (even if some of you are also national champions), I'll just say that if you believe you can throw long-grain IMR powder to ~.10/grain precision, then more power to you!

Please pardon me while I doubt it.
Regards, Joe

I don't have access to the elegant and consistent powder measures that the benchrest shooters use. I just have an RCBS and the usual Dillons.

As a result, for all hunting ammo I charge into the weighing pan of an electronic balance and trickle to a known weight. This assures that I get the charge I want and that it is consistent regardless of the temperature.

For ammo to be used for plinking, IPSC, NFA firearms, and other "fun" uses the powder measures with ball powders are good enough.

A lot depends upon the density of the powder, which is why it is easier to get more consistent drops with smaller grained powders. Today's volumetric measures, using baffles are much better than what we used in the old brown shoe days. Remember that BR shooters who are loading on the tailgate are going by "clicks" because they know the powder they are using is of thus and such a density and that so many clicks equal so many grains dropped in the case. It does not have to be super exact; there are a lot of other factors that will influence aggs more than a .1 grain difference in the drop of N-133 in your 6ppc case after it has been shot 3 or 5 times that day. I suppose it should be said here that Most modern BR short range guns are built to handle pressures that you would not want to try in a factory rifle and that although when I was dropping so many clicks out of My Harrell at a match I could not tell you EXACTLY what the powder weight was, you can rest assured that I knew where I was in the ballpark. That is to say - we don't just pick a number out of the air and use it - we know that our base number-- so many clicks-- is so many grains of this particular lot of powder and that if it is 20 degrees hotter or colder we're going to go up or down so many clicks for this particular load in this rifle at this range. Lately, a lot of the top shooters have stopped loading at the match and gone to barrel tuners like the ones used by our rimfire friends.

If you are loading at home, and want to get the most precise powder drop with the least effort, in the shortest time, you must go to the new digital scale/dispenser combos. They are not cheap, but they are worth the money. They operate much like a trickler and the density of the powder does not affect the weight of powder dropped, since the scale is monitoring the powder as it is discharged from the dispenser.


So-- the upshot of all this is that it depends upon a variety of factors as to which method--weight or volume is going to work best for you. Frankly, I don't know anyone who loads strictly by volume. We used to do the dipper thing back in ye olden days, but today, at the heart of any load, you had to weigh it at some point-- and from there it is all going to depend upon how trusty your volumetric measure is and how consistent your powder density is from lot to lot. These days, density is a lot better than it used to be, especially if you are using premium powders like H-335 or N-133, but there can still be enough variation to make keeping a record of density worthwhile.

All...thanks for the discussion.


I currently use a RCBS digital scale/dispener for my reloading (weighing each charge). It is pretty fast, but I was wondering if I could speed the process up with a powder measure and still get simalar results.....hence the question.

I also know there are a lot of variable and was just wondering if there was a better/faster way to skin the cat. I guess I could always use 2 digital scale/dispensers to speed up the process. For me, measuring out the powder charge is the slowest part of the assembly line process. I've got the process streamlined as much as possible at this point (at least I think I do) by seating the bullet on the last round while the electronic digital dispenser is weighing out another one. If it doesn't over fill the charge then I'm usually on que, but if I have to dig out 2/10ths of a grain it slows me down. Again, that's why I was asking the question about just going to a "volume" measure approach.

So, with that in mind is there a better weigh (pun intended) to speed up the powder measuring process?

Thanks

Well, like I have said, fitting a vibrator to the powder hopper seems to stabilize the measure to the point where double checking on the scale is unecessary. But surely an accurate load would be one that is insensitive to small changes in powder charge, case volume, neck tension and so on?

MHC,

Unless your looking for groups in the sub .200" range, you should give one of the standard measures a try.

Set up and load say 10 rounds with your normal method, then set one of the RCBS Uniflow or similar measures up and throw ten after getting the weight set. Shoot both side by side for comparison.

Here is what I usually work loads up with,

and here are some groups I get with this method,

The bottom left are the final groups, with the flyer's due to barrel heating and a rub on the stock. However, other than the flyer's, that is the general type groups I get from throwing my charges with the Uniflow. Powder used this time was Hybrid-100,

These groups were shot with ammo loaded the same way using H-869,at 500yds,

adjusting for windage,

almost there just need to wait for the wind to settle,


fire for effect,


The target is a 19" wide blind flange, and the white dot is 2.5" in diameter.

You should pick you up one of the standard measures and give it a try you might surprise yourself at how close to what you doing already it really is, only faster.

I pre-weigh my powders and then use the numbered scale on the stem of the Uniflow for record. Simply dial it to the start load and go from there. When I find what I like I record the setting then come home and weigh it for the load data. Once verified I simply reset the measure and load away. Has been working like this for me for many years now, and I see no reason to change, with the results I get.

quote:

the white dot is 2.5" in diameter.

Mmmm.... I can see by the impact craters how big the white dot is. Holy Cow - 500yds! Nice. Very nice! I like to see targets like that - it keeps me humble! (And motivated).

When I started shooting past 600 yards, I found that "thrown" powders caused problems with elevation.

At longer ranges, velocity differences between rounds changes individual round trajectory.

When I started weighing each powder charge it cut down on vertical stringing.

I shoot 1000yrd comp rifle and I throw every charge with a Redding BR measure, with the correct technique, you can get surprising results even with coarse stick powders.

I have an interesting side issue that might surprise some.
Have you ever noticed that even when your thrower is calibrated, the actual weight that is being thrown varies according to ambient temp of A) The powder, and B) the temp of the room/shed or whatever/wherever you are handloading?
This is because the weight of the powder is not constant, it will change with humidity and temp just like every other organic material.
So it is wise that if you store your powder in a cool box etc, to keep an eye on the charge weight throughout the handloading process.

By all means go with a powder measure, it will cause no grief if you use it correctly.
Cheers.
416RigbyHunter.

quote:

Have you ever noticed ... it will change with humidity and temp just like every other organic material.

Thanks for that insight! I had noticed changes but did not know what was causing it! On the other hand, I have left a charge of powder on the scale for days or more and there was no change in weight.

I use an RCBS Uniflow with the optional baffle installed. My Uniflow throws H335 (ball powder) to .1gn consistantly.

My Uniflow throws Varget, IMR 4064, and Reloader 15 to + or - .5gn.

Under 300 yards there is no difference in the accuracy of my weighed / trickled extruded loads and the loads straight from the measure.

I do exclusively weigh / trickle my 600 yard loads. I shoot Service Rifle with a 1:7 twist AR-15 and use 69 gn Sierra Matchkings loaded to magazine length for 200 and 300 yards; I use 80 gn Sierra Matchkings, single loaded @ 600 yds loaded to an OAL of 2.470"

quote:

Frankly, I don't know anyone who loads strictly by volume.

Those black powder measures are volumetric, not by weight. It might say 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 on the measure, but that is not grains of powder. So all the smokepole guys who load black powder do so strictly by volume.

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
So, with that in mind is there a better weigh (pun intended) to speed up the powder measuring process?

You are already loading the fastest single stage way. To go faster, you need to upgrade to a progressive press, such as the Dillon RL550B. Still not fast enough? Get their optional case feeder. But you'll be measuring powder by volume, not by weight. Using spherical powders in a Dillon powder measure gives .1gr +/- accuracy.

What 416RIGBYHUNTER said in triplicate.
I was going to mention this also but, he beat me to it.