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Our bullet making operation Talking to a friend the other day, he said "you're nuts"! The reason being I suggested of running a test on how bullets of different diameter might shoot. I am going to make brass bullets, for the 308 Winchester, in roughly 150 grains weight. I am going to make the following sizes. 308 307 306 305 304 303 302 301 300 309 310 311 312 313 I am going to shoot them, and check for accuracy and velocity. Anyone likes to hazard a guess where we are going to see any appreciable difference? Bear in mind that in past experience, I have loaded 243 caliber bullets for my 244 H&H Magnum, which users 245 caliber bullets, and they shot as well as the originals. I have shot 277 caliber bullets in a 7x64, and they shot reasonably well. | ||
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| One of Us |
I hope not but I think you might get fowling with the close to .300 diameters. I think all the others will work. i'm sure you have read P O Ackley's results firing 8MM-06 in what was a 30-06. said it worked very well. Saeed the neck tension test very interesting. Thankyou | |||
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sure, i'll play .. let call .308 as 0.0 and Assumptions: you are making banded bullets, and the minor diameter will be less than 0.290 -- if at .300, there could be pressure spikes in the larger bullets -- either way, it'll be interesting barrel is .308 groove, .303 bore loads are middle of book for both assumptions above same powder/primer/brass conditions will be kept the same depending on true bore diameter from -0.004 to +0.002 there will be be minimal difference .. note that -0.004 is likely to be the border - it MAY shoot well, but with tumbles, or it may be fine, or it may be the junk line .. -0.003 - likely just fine -0.002 - fine .... +0.002 - fine +0.003 - MIGHT see pressure change - might see this in "Reading" the primers, would see it on a strain gauge +0.004 - here be monsters -- i do not recommend this - use a remote trigger from here up - why the nervous nancy here? past here is the same difference from .318 and .323 8x57 issues, which is known for pressure spikes and steel rain +0.005 - should be obvious pressure spikes - opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| Administrator |
I picked 45 grains of Varget as my load. Federal 210M in Lapua brass. So far shot 308, 307, 306. 4 groups of 5 shots each. Best single group so far is one with 306 bullets! All cases were sized in FL RCBS die. I could feel the 306 bullets being seated not being as tight as the 308 and 307. I am going to use a Redding FL button die for the next ones, using a sizing button that will give me a reasonably tight seating. No attempt was made to find an accurate load with this bullet, but, I don’t think this will matter. The 308 bullets ended up weighing 154 grains. It was suggested I repeat the test with copper bullets, because someone here thought the hardness of the metal can have an effect on the results. | |||
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| one of us |
I think your test would be more useful if you used bumped-up or swaged-down cup-and-core bullets. A monometal bullet neither expands due to gas pressure on its base nor barrel-swages as easily as a conventional cup-and-core bullet. By the way, I see no difference at all in the average accuracy of .223" Hornet bullets and .224" bullets in any of my Hornets. There are many other factors which go into bullet accuracy, but + or - .002" in bullet diameter doesn't seem to make much difference in most guns. | |||
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Ackley fired 8mm bullets out of a 3006 and said it worked very well. | |||
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| Moderator |
I am not one to cast dispersion on my hero, though i expect not everything Parker did was entirely sane opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One of Us |
I'm guessing you're going to see a pressure spike once you get past .310" Nominal bore suggests the rifling might cease to have a decent grip on the bullets below .303" so I'd expect accuracy to fall off about there. As another poster said; swaging the exact same bullet down to size might deliver a more representative picture of what bullet diameter means in relation to performance. OK, so it'd miss the 0.313" but swaging down .303 British bullets would do the rest. ETA or find some 7.65 Argentine bullets to swage, as they're .313". Then of course that messes with the SD...  | |||
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One of Us |
I second Jeff's predictions; you found that two thou under makes no difference; as predicted. And one over won't matter; two over might start. | |||
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I think this sort of test would have been very difficult, time consuming, and expensive if we used swaging. I gave up swaging years ago, and went on to CNC made bullets. In fact, for our own use, we use turned bullets exclusively. One also needs to think about the older rifles, as I am not sure how accurate their bores are. We have had a number of European made rifles - BRNO, Blasers and others - which had very tight bores. Some would blow the primers with factory ammo! I had to make bullets that were up to 0.006" smaller for them to be able to shoot. | |||
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Here is my half way report. Full details and photos will be posted at the end. All loads were 45.0 grains of VARGET, FEDERAL 210M primers, in LAPUA brass. Loaded length was 2.790" 0.308 normal 2767 FPS SD 10 ES 27 0.307 normal 2763 FPS SD 12 ES 32 0.306 normal 2755 FPS SD 11 ES 28 0.305 normal 2728 FPS SD 13 ES 34 0.304 normal 2711 FPS SD 13 ES 34 0.303 only one group of 5 shots was fired. Bullets were beginning to go sideways. Group was 4.681" 2724 FPS SD 28 ES 62 Will continue testing with 0.309 and upwards. | |||
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| One of Us |
Good stuff Saeed. I suspected the smaller the diameter of the bullet the less velocity more likely due to less friction thus pressure. You know many of the WWII2 military rifles shot undersize bullets or maybe better put had exceptionally larger groove diameters by today's standard per caliber. I believe some of the reasoning was the deeper groove game someplace for the dirt and powder carbon to go. I've seen new 7x57 barrels with .288 grooves for an example. | |||
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| one of us |
Ruger found that shooting .311 bullets in their .308 mini-30 barrels caused no problems. | |||
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| Administrator |
I am almost certain that this all depends on the particular rifle. Currently I am t4sting brass bullets in a Remington 40X rifle. I am also goi g to repeat this test with copper bullets, in another rifle. Any excuse to shoot for fun  | |||
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Shot 311 bullets. All normal. I have made bullets in 312 and 313, and necessary I will go up. Just did not want to waste time making bigger ones before. | |||
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Saeed, What kind of velocities did you get with .311's? Watching w/ interest as I have an 8x56MS with a .327 bore diameter that I use .323 bullets in. But I've also swaged down .338 bullets. .323's have been more accurate so far. | |||
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0.308 normal 2767 FPS SD 10 ES 27 0.307 normal 2763 FPS SD 12 ES 32 0.306 normal 2755 FPS SD 11 ES 28 0.305 normal 2728 FPS SD 13 ES 34 0.304 normal 2711 FPS SD 13 ES 34 0.303 only one group of 5 shots was fired. Bullets were beginning to go sideways. Group was 4.681" 2724 FPS SD 28 ES 62 309 normal 2771 FPS SD 19 ES 50 310 normal 2750 FPS SD 8 ES 22 311 normal 2763 FPS SD 9 ES 24 312 flattened primers, so I decided to stop at this size. 2773 FPS SD 7 ES 18 Some of the boys here are not happy with me using brass. So I have decided to make copper bullets, in .264 caliber, and try again. Once that is done, I will post all the details with the targets. I appreciate your patience. | |||
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| One of Us |
I'm betting that .310 diameter produces the best groups. Karl Evans | |||
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The following is an average of 4, 5-shot groups. 0.308 0.800 0.307 1.229 0.306 0.823 0.305 0.854 0.304 1.546 0.303 4.681 0.309 0.737 0.310 0.822 0.311 1.162 0.322 1.859 | |||
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| One of Us |
Is the chamber neck in your rifle large enough to allow the larger dia. bullets without pinching the neck? My experience is that a tight neck will send pressures up more quickly than than just a larger dia. bullet with a loose neck. This is an interesting experiment! C.G.B. | |||
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All rounds chambered with no problems at all. So I assume with these cases there is no problem. Other brass, which might be thick, could cause problems. The main purpose of the experiment is to see how far off the normal chamber one can go. | |||
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| One of Us |
Watch for copper fouling when you go to the copper bullets!!! | |||
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I coat all my bullets with Molly. Never have to worry about fouling at all. | |||
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Moly not a good test then because not a lot of people use it anymore!!   | |||
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That is their problem, not mine. I have been using it for so many years, and nothing but good experience with it. | |||
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| one of us |
I would measure the neck on your chamber reamer for these tests. It would be easier to see when you’re getting closer than say .001-.002” clearance with the loaded round. With thinner brass you may be able to go with a larger bullet with no ill effects....may not see pressure signs as fast. Shoot straight, shoot often. Matt | |||
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| one of us |
Saeed, You're doing mono-metals instead of jacketed copper b/c you can cut them to the right sizes on the lathe, but I would imagine cup and core would bump up or swage down easier and have a wider working range of "off-bore" sizes (per Ackley's experiments). Very cool experiment. Looking forward to copper. | |||
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| Moderator |
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| Administrator |
I can go into all sorts of measurements and adjust things as I go along. But, my point about this experiment is if a normal individual shoots various sized bullets in a particular rifle. I have many rifles with tight necks, which are really useless for this test. I found a Ruger 77 in 280 Remington I was given years ago by Steve Vogel of Ruger. I have not shot this rifle for years, so it might be a good candidate to try the copper bullets in. We are running the machine making pistol bullets right now, both 44 and 357 calibers. Once that is done I will make 284 bullets for it. | |||
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| One of Us |
Very interesting! I don't think I've ever seen this done before. Thanks for sharing your results with us. I'm looking forward to the 284 test, to see if it repeats the pattern. | |||
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| One of Us |
Saeed, This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing, and doing all the work! Will follow this closely. I am working with .357 and .358 bullets. in my 357 Maximum. Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Saeed , In your list you have one bullet as a size .322, is this a typo? I like your idea with this. Perhaps you could use some commercial C&C bullets, they do make them in .31o .311 and .312 for some old military rounds. Leo. The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it. | |||
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Yes, a typing mistake, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will correct it. | |||
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| Administrator |
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one of us |
Very interesting experiment. I wish I had the time and facilities to do stuff like that.. Now my question is, based on the results of your testing, what will you do differently going forward? will you load any of your hunting ammo differently based on this testing? etc.. NRA Benefactor. Life is tough... It's even tougher when you're stupid... John Wayne | |||
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Pa Frank, I don't know if Saeed will change reloading practices or not, but based on these results I'll likely cast some .330 bullets and run them through a .327 sizer to see if my .327 bore diameter 8x56MS shoots more accurately than it does with .323 dia 8mm bullets. I also won't try to shoot .330 jacketed bullets through it with reduced loads hoping the bore will size them and they be accurate. I might also try swaging down oversize jacketed bullets again, but initial 30 I tried was was a lot of work for not great results. | |||
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| One of Us |
A group of friends I belong are dedicated cast shooters. Most often what we do is shoot the fattest bullet that the chamber will accept in a loading round. The closer the bullet centerline is to the bore centerline the straighter the bullet will get started. Jacketed is very forgiving, but cast isn't. Another they we will do, if we can find suitable cases, is look for the thick necks we can find. This again has to do with centering the bullet. Generally the real fat bullets shoot better. We are always .001 to .002 to .003 to .003 over the groove size depending on application. | |||
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Thanks for the note, vzerone. I'll start oversize. | |||
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| Administrator |
Short answer is no. I have always made our bullets slightly under size. Examples. For .375 rifles I make our bullets 0.3748 .308 to .3078 and so on. All our bullets shoot very well, this way. | |||
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Shot copper bullets in a Ruger M77 in 280 Remington. .284 .285 .286 .287 All shot normally. .288 would not chamber. Will try smaller size and report all results. | |||
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