This past weekend I was testing some of my reloads for my 6.5 creedmoor. I shot a five shot group at 100yd with the muzzle brake and another five shot group without the muzzle brake. The group with the muzzle brake was 1.5” the group without the muzzle brake was .68”. Can anybody offer up some suggestions how I can tighten up the group using the muzzle brake? My current load is 147gr eld-x with 40grs of imr 4350 the coal is 2.165” that measurement is measured from the base to the bullets ogive.

Removing the brake altered the barrel dynamics. Doubtful you will get the same load to give you the best group in both conditions.

Only suggestion is remove the brake and work up a new load.

Ok thank you

Maybe someone has a better idea. Remember the BOSS system? If you removed the brake you replaced it with unit without the holes to allow you to keep the same barrel dynamics.

Seems like you're gonna have to put the break on and start from scratch developing a load. Then remove the break and start over again. In other words you're gonna have two different loads. Kinda like two different rifles.

If load workup doesn't help, your brake might not be installed straight.

Why do you have a muzzle brake on that 6.5?
roger

Well it’s my friends rifle and he is in the navy and wants his wife to start hunting. It’s mainly on the gun for recoil. I’m just trying to get some good groups out of it. No Matt what I do to the load and seating depths I can’t get it to shoot less than a inch. But as soon as I take the brake off it will shoot .75” or less all day.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Why do you have a muzzle brake on that 6.5?

Why not? Most .223/5.56 ARs come equipped with brakes.

No, most AR rifles come with flash hiders, not muzzle brakes. The former do nothing for recoil reduction (nor do they matter for muzzle flash reduction).


.

I have a PacNor barreled 700 in 6mmRem with a break. Point of impact for all practical purpose is the same, with or without the break.

Flash suppressors are for the shooters benefit in dark/low light situations. There's no such thing as a flash hider.

quote:

Point of impact for all practical purpose is the same, with or without the break

You sure have more luck than I have.

Because they look cool; no other reason. That's why I have one on my 6.5.

What ammo do you shoot? Do you reload for it if so what is your best group?

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
No, most AR rifles come with flash hiders, not muzzle brakes. The former do nothing for recoil reduction (nor do they matter for muzzle flash reduction).

Flash suppressors are an attachment to the muzzle end of a barrel that has holes in its sides that allow some of the high pressure gasses to exit to the sides.

Muzzle brakes are an attachment to the muzzle end of a barrel that has holes in its sides that allow some of the high pressure gasses to exit to the sides.

That's a very large disparity in group size. My first suspicion would be the design of brake itself and next the precision of installation. I like muzzle brakes.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Point of impact for all practical purpose is the same, with or without the break

You sure have more luck than I have.

I know, was certainly not expecting it.

Unless your barrel is very lightweight I would not expect barrel harmonics to make such a big difference.

If you can, try to reinstall the brake with some washers to change the orientation of the brake on the barrel. If there are any changes (good or bad) that's an indicator that there's a problem with the barrel threads or the brake.

Or, if the threading is standard, try to borrow someone else's brake and see what happens.

The brake has changed the harmonics

BTW......I like a brake on a 6.5

It virtually eliminates recoil and muzzle rise making shooting more enjoyable.

Forgot to mention, the barrel is 26", heavy (2 or 3) contour. Maybe the reason the variation is slight ?

I don’t like muzzle brakes. That said, they are a good tool for a competition gun and a long range prone fired hunting rifle. Of course, ear plugs must ALWAYS be worn when shooting a braked rifle if one values their hearing.

It is not surprising the groups changed on the 6.5 when the brake was removed. I would expect it. It well illustrates the whole idea behind a barrel tuner or BOSS. To get the load to shoot well with the brake, get a bunch of shims and start experimenting. There ought to be a certain number of shims that will bring the harmonics back in line.

With nearly an inch difference with the brake on I would be concerned that the brake was not bored out to a large enough diameter, or threaded concentric to the bore. Either way, I suspect that there might be contact with the brake.

I have shot several Boss equipped rifles and they do what they were designed to do, improve accuracy if you shoot them enough to find their sweet spot setting. I own a Winchester Modle 70 Laredo in 7mm STW with Bull barrel and Boss that shoots a ragged hole when I do my part with the trigger and crosshair. I also shoot several larger chamberings with Muzzle Brakes. All my rifles above .300 Winny have Brakes and it is my opinion they all exhibit better accuracy for me than bare barreled rifles. Don't know if it is the reduced recoil for the shooter or barrel harmonics but this is how Brakes affect me after many years Shooting heavy recoil rifles. Good Shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Because they look cool; no other reason. That's why I have one on my 6.5.

You must be right. I've got a home brewed on my .358X .375 UM IMP and one on my 8mmx.404x2.5" roger

Hey...I had MB's on a 220 Swift, a 22-243, a couple of 6mm-284's...I could see the bullet hits way out beyond 500 yds, THROUGH THE SCOPE.

Too many people that really don't know squat about MB's, or ever used them, are locked into the noise aspect, from what they read on the net probably, and not about all the other various aspects that MB's have.

Like the man says...One dog barks at a burgler and 1000 bark at the sound.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
I have a PacNor barreled 700 in 6mmRem with a break. Point of impact for all practical purpose is the same, with or without the break.

Flash suppressors are for the shooters benefit in dark/low light situations. There's no such thing as a flash hider.

It's called a silencer!

quote:

are locked into the noise aspect

That like criticizing someone who wears a seatbelt because they are locked into the whole getting thrown through the winshield aspect. After all, if they just had more experience in having automobile accidents......

Allowing for and acknowledging a couple exceptions, it’s unlikely that recoil will permanently damage anyone. A braked rifle fired without hearing protection is likely to permanently damage hearing. That is not even disputable. So the answer is to never use a brake without hearing protection, even when shooting at game. To do so is incredibly unwise......

NOT a valid comparison as usual for an ANTI-EMBEE...just like spin doctoring for politicians.

If you DON'T LIKE brakes then don't use them, wear earplug, don't go to ranges where they are allowed, or ???? Never could understand the reasoning behind the jumping up and down about something you don't like when every time you make reference to it you just open it up for more people to actually think about it and possibly go get one. Just like the news media...give them blood and the start salivating and get more cranked up if you mention it again. Leave it alone and they start going after some other bloody thing. Seems like a wast of time to me, or , maybe proselytizing is your game...or pot stirring.


CPG...Could be what Wasbeeman and Sep said but I think it's more likely the barrel harmonics...take a look at the reloading section...you will see the effect of changes in powder charge on group size vividly evident...it's the best illustration of that phenomenon I've ever seen is very descriptive detail...FOR ALL CALIBERS AND CARTRIDGES...and one of the reasons for using the "ladder"(I hate that descriptive word) style of load development.

You might just try another brand of primer or changing the seating depth or changing bullet brand...bench prep the brass and bullets is another good way to eliminate "flyers". I have a 22-250 would bughole the 53 gr Hornady BTHP with a specific powder and primer but would open up to 1.5" just by changing the primer...I had bought 500 all the same lot...when I ran out of those I bought another 1000 all of one lot that wouldn't hit sh**...took me a while to work out the problem...Hornady had changed the nose profile and the Ogive had moved 0.022". Once I found that out I just adjusted the seating to the original point and the bugholes came back...at least until I ran out of those bullets and the same thing happened again. One reason I buy by the lot number and in quantity for those rifle that get a high number of shots/year.

Barrel harmonics isn't something the average shooter ever thinks about, but is precisely what your changing when you change ANY parameter. Something to think about


Whoops...breakfast is over, gotta go put a MB on my 500 S&W...I understand that recoil without a MB can kill ya.


Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
NOT a valid comparison as usual for an ANTI-EMBEE...just like spin doctoring for politicians.

If you DON'T LIKE brakes then don't use them, wear earplug, don't go to ranges where they are allowed, or ???? Never could understand the reasoning behind the jumping up and down about something you don't like when every time you make reference to it you just open it up for more people to actually think about it and possibly go get one. Just like the news media...give them blood and the start salivating and get more cranked up if you mention it again. Leave it alone and they start going after some other bloody thing. Seems like a wast of time to me, or , maybe proselytizing is your game...or pot stirring.

My analogy is spot on. Again, shooting a braked rifle without earplugs is STUPID beyond belief. Surely you don’t do something that stupid.....

You are are making a lot of assumptions. I never said don’t use brakes nor did I say you had a small
penis because you use brakes. I use brakes myself—-sparingly. I used one on my 1000 yd BR rifle and have one on my long range hunting rig. My only point is this:

It is STUPID to shoot a braked rifle EVER without wearing earplugs. Permanent hearing damage can easily occur after ONE shot.

Is that really a difficult or controversial idea? Seems to me like common sense to me.........

quote:

Well it’s my friends rifle and he is in the navy and wants his wife to start hunting.
It’s mainly on the gun for recoil.

I'm not sure how things would be different if your friend were in the Army or even the Rotary Club for that matter, but I digress . . .

The greatly increased muzzle blast from a muzzle brake is typically more distracting for a new shooter than is the relatively mild recoil of a round like the 6.5 Creedmore. Greater muzzle blast creates the perception of greater recoil and an overall impression that a rifle is somehow a formidable and scary thing. He should leave the muzzle brake off and start her out shooting from a standing position, which puts much less strain on the shoulder than sitting at a bench. After she understands that the rifle's recoil isn't going to hurt then she can learn to shoot from a rest.

quote:

Originally posted by thecanadian:
With nearly an inch difference with the brake on I would be concerned that the brake was not bored out to a large enough diameter, or threaded concentric to the bore. Either way, I suspect that there might be contact with the brake.

This is a real possibility and needs checked off.jc

Well if he was in the army he wouldn’t be able to shoot gun at all and in fact he might even confuse the orientation of which way to hold a gun “if he was in the army”. FYI he isn’t old enough to be in a rotary club. For the muzzle brake do you think I’m a idiot? Of course I checked the clearance between bullet and bore diameter of the muzzle brake.

Gents.....

Muzzle brakes are nice for a few of my PD rifles.

For reduced recoil.....self spotting.....my Vais brakes work well. I do try to not set up close to anyone. Yep....ear plugs AND electronic muffs(to hear others, I turn the volume up).

Yes.....I only develop loads for when the brakes are attached.

Kevin

The group without the brake is wonderful. Don't use the brake!

Brakes??

1. Since it is not practical to hunt with earmuffs I will never own a hunting rifle with a brake. Corollary, I will never hunt with someone who uses a brake equipped rifle.

2. Target shooting, you are screwing the guy next to you on the line. When you blast him his shooting suffers. That is not cool.

3. For a few speed shooting game where you are shooting alone, I have no problem with them.

4. They do not look any more cool that a Cutts on a vintage high grade model 12.

Why, on a hunting rifle, would a quarter of an inch make any difference and I guarantee you she won't ever know the difference, but she will without the brake perhaps..I also suspect that if you shot 15 or more groups with the brake and the same without the brake that 1/4" would dissolve into the mist, and after a couple of hundred rounds all would level out..Maybe.

After all my many years of getting the crap beat out of me with heavy rifles, and losing a good deal of my hearing (not that I mind my quite world)and a heavy dose of Bursitas in my neck and shoulders, I have been using a brake for the last year as it came with my Ruger Africans in .338 and 9.3, and I love that sucker (brake)..I also got a dubber to screw on the barrel to make it shoot to the same POI with or without a brake, and I got a thread protector for when I don't use the brake, all came with the new package, that many are whinging about!! I used the brake for bench shooting and sighting in, and tossed the dubber on both guns as the guns shoot to the same POI with or without the brake or he dubber..When I hunt I have some foam ear plugs on a string around my neck, that I normally forget to use when the animal pops up.. and I find myself using the brake when hunting as I am usually alone when I see the animals, if not I lend the observer, be he hunting partner, or family member with new set of pretty foam ear plugs. With age comes wisdom and times change, no smart ass replys please.

Many believe that the changes in accuracy seen when muzzle breaks or muzzle devises are added to a barrel is due to an alteration in barrel harmonics when in fact the changes are the result of alterations in the gas and shock flow fields that occur at bullet egress .


When a projectile exists the muzzle of a "naked" barrel it is accompanied by very definite flow and shock phenomena that have an effect on bullet flight characteristics.

a series of shock zones contained in what is referred to a 'shock bottle" precede the bullet, there is a measure of gas blow by and ultimately it is followed by a gas mass flow and shock that flows at supersonic velocities relative the velocity of the bullet at egress so that the gas flow overtakes the bullet, so that it is now flying inside a zone of high pressure shocks and hot gas flow.

The gas mass then also still contains chemicals that have not yet been fully oxidized or not oxidized at all and at egress when they come into contact with oxygen react.

The net result is a bullet that is overtaken by a flow of hot gas and at the same time has to fight its way through a series of shock zones.... all of which have an effect on projectile motion and ultimately precision and accuracy.

When barrel devices are added they alter the conditions of this gas and shock flow, some like recoil reducers and shock deflectors deliberately by design alter the direction of gas flow and shock propagation and if unbalanced may have an effect on both the exiting projectile but also the gun platform.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Many believe that the changes in accuracy seen when muzzle breaks or muzzle devises are added to a barrel is due to an alteration in barrel harmonics ....

Yep . and has been proven on MILLIONS of "boss" equipped rifles, both solid and cut ... This one, little tiny company proved this, past the shadow of any doubt ... I think that company is called FN Herstal or something like that ...

Have a read, doc -- i know it's marketing material, but if one uses "the google" and has least little bit of cognitive function, find the bread crumbs is pretty easy

http://www.browning.com/news/tech-terms/boss.html

Jeffe you may think I'm some idiot ! Of course the Boss changes barrel harmonics and you can "tune" your barrel by screwing it in or out. That is not disputed !

I was not referring to the Boss ! But to the effects of brakes, sound moderators, flash suppressors and shock deflectors on projectile and gun platform behaviour !

I challenge you to prove that what I stated is not factually correct !

Yes I read and I use the internet ! Without reading or using the net I would not be able to do what I do for a living ! you think I'm some kind of moron !

Alfie,
your assumptions of my unshared opinions aside (though one could have an interesting, though tedious, digression into those underlying thought processes) -

if one takes a "normal" barrel, and makes the machining cuts required to mount a typical brake, one changes the barrel harmonics, (ignoring, for the purpose of being tedious, the various "clamp on" brakes).

If one then screws on a brake, it would then change the barrel harmonics

if one then unscrews and places a cap on the thread, one, again, changes the barrel harmonics

if one replaces one brake for another, assuming, again, to be tedious, that it isn't "exactly" the same, one changes barrel harmonics

if one changes pressure points in stock, one changes barrel harmonics

if one machines the barrel, one changes barrel harmonics

if one changes the BULLET, to another, one changes barrel harmonics

if one changes (though, to be even more tedious, this is a range) the load of the same powder, one changes barrel harmonics

if one changes the powder type, one changes barrel harmonics

if one sticks chewed up gum on the threads, on the thread cap, one changes barrel harmonics

and someone wishes to focus on the trivial factors of gas disruptions as the defining material...


In Texas, we call that picking fly specs out of the pepper