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What is your personal standard for run-out in your handloads? Say, for hunting ammunition to be used at no farther than 250 yds? I have been cruising along with my 6.5 x 55, have made several lots with less than .002 runout, now I've hit a wall. I'm using Redding dies, including a competition seater, Lapua cases, Barnes bullets. Whoa, on my latest lot runout is "running" at .005-.010, just a few are less. Now I have to track down the cause. I use a Rockchucker, so the dies are removed and replaced as I work on other things. Maybe I have just been lucky. I have some Hornady premium on hand, run-out is .004-.008, sometimes slightly more or less, and it shoots pretty well. It's just a little disconcerting to see what I'm turning out after doing so well before. What I'm trying to decide on is what to settle for as acceptable. Opinions/advice appreciated. Will check back after LSU game! | ||
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I usually straighten my ammo for match or hunting to less than .002 runout. Out to 250yds anywhere up to .005 probably won't matter that much but .010 you might see some difference. You should be able to figure out why your runout has increased. If nothing else figuring it out will be a usefull learning experience.........................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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You can probably count on 0.002-0.004" of runout due to variation in case wall thickness. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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I don't measure case run pout on hunting ammo unless it varmint load. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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To me an acceptable standard is the very best one can do and you have done better so why settle for less? (The fact that it may make little difference is irrelevent!)  Regards 303Guy | |||
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Let me help keep you awake nights by offering this little tidbit: No matter how straight your ammo is, the bullet will ALWAYS enter the bore crooked. And too, if this highly desirable .002 happens to enter the chamber in opposing directions, your true run out is .004 if you get my drift. So the difference between .002 and .005 is purely academic and the only yield is a peace of mind that perhaps makes you a better shooter. Not to worry however, your rifle barrel has 18-24" to work out the problems of the crooked bullet and send it on it's way. Neat, huh. | |||
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Stillbeeman reflects my thinking exactly. Some of the best groups I got was BEFORE I got my runnout gauge and found my ammo had .007 runnout. There is a guy over at Long Range that says his custom gun doesn't care about runnout as he sees runnout as high as .020" when forming cases for his gun yet it shoots stellar at 300 yds. YET THERE ARE people here that will chime in and tell you it makes a big difference for them. Benchresters seem to pay big attention to it. I guess with all the opinions which you are about to see....all with credibility...the bottom line is....if it matters to you and your gun.....make the runnout numbers small. | |||
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Where in the world do you come up with this? There is not such a thing as ammo that is TOO straight, the only question is whether it's worth the effort to get it down to a certain point. You can say that there's no difference between ammo between .020 and .002 runout but I think that's hogwash unless you've got a tight chambered throat that straightens the ammo when chambered. All the small groups I've shot have been with ammo adjusted to under .002 runout. In my rifles I have seen a noticable difference with straighter ammo.............................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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All bullets enter the bore of the rifle CROOKED. It's not a matter of hog wash, it's a simple fact. It may make you feel warm and fuzzy to have straight ammo but beyond a certain reasonable point, angsting over .004 versus .002 is just stroking your ego. Kinda like discussing what is the best bevel for correcting the inside of the flash hole and the best degree for a crown.  I don't believe you will find a chamber that will strighten crooked ammo. | |||
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Runout. A lot of ink has been used to write about it. For hunting purposes, and if you have a niggling worry that runout might affect your accuracy: when you are seating your bullet, make it a multi-step process. First you ensure the base is indeed in the mouth of t he case. Release the pressure, rotate the case. Then seat a little deeper, release the pressure, rotate. Then finish the process. I've foung that this reduces runout to an acceptable standard, about .005 to .006 in. Cheeres, Phil Tazzman | |||
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Supposedly by getting a good seating die you will do the most good at eliminating runout. Wilson or Redding Competition. I have the Redding and am seeing .002" to .005" with the ammo I'm loading for my .300 WM. The neck thickness thing may be why I'm seeing the .005" once in a while; I hadn't thought of that before reading it here. | |||
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I've loaded for over 30 yrs and shot some very impressive groups w/ semi tuned hunting rifles. THEN, Dave Scoville(thru Handloaded) convinced me that I needed to check my bullet concentricity. So, I ordered one from Sinclair and both humbled and impressed myself w/ my handloads. PAY ATTENTION---unless you are a competitive BR shooter, don't waste your $$$$$$. Follow tazzman's advice and your hunting rifles will be happy and make you smile! | |||
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Thank you all for your answers, I really enjoy this forum a lot. Tazzman, I read somewhere about that bullet seating method several years and have always used it. I was was loading a lot of 60 rds and on the first 10 rds the runout was more than I like to see, so I put up this post. I went back and started over with the remaining 50 cases. I set up my dies again from scratch (which I almost always do anyway) and this seemed to make a big difference - when I started this lot I had just screwed the dies back in with the lock ring in place, to see how it would work. Guess from I'll set the dies up every time from now on, only takes a few minutes. I ended up with a handful of rounds with the runout approaching 0.010". I will shoot these first tomorrow and compare them to some with runout <0.002", will be interesting to see. Thanks again. | |||
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Some quick advice from someone who's chased runnout. Check the runnout of the case after sizing the case (before seating the bullet). If you are making the case crooked it isn't gonna get better when you seat it. I have found without fail in my many brands of dies that by making small turns of the sizing stem (1/32 turn at a time) that you will eventually get the expander pretty well centered and your sized cases will get real straight. After that careful seating should cut your runnout alot. | |||
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You will probably not see any difference in your accuracy in a hunting rifle out to 200 yards. Loading for NRA HP rifle competition, I sorted my ammo, using <.002" @ 600 -1000 yards and >.002" for short range (200-300 yds) in a snug chambered target rifle and bullets seated very close to rifling. IMO reasonable runout not important on short range but moreso beyond 300. As Kraky said, runout is often caused by pulling the case over the expander plug during sizing step. You cannot seat a bullet straight in a crooked case. Check case neck runout and correct the problem at the source. Pull your decapping stem, chuck it in a drill and polish the expander ball. I decap by hand since I use a Lee case trimmer and need unprimed case to do so, so I can set my expander plug very high in the die so that it enters the bottom of case neck while top of neck is still held centered in the die. Clean and lube inside of case neck also helps. Regards, hm 2 Chronicles 7:14: If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. | |||
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I feel using a collet neck sizing die like the one made by Lee Precision does a great job of keeping you cases straight. I like them! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I strive for .004" max. When I get higher runout it is usually a brass problem. I don't turn necks on all my rifles. | |||
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Run out should be as small as you can get along with fit of the case to the chamber to keep alignment. But none of you know what causes bad run out! It is caused by OVER SIZING the neck and pulling an expander out. THAT BENDS THE SHOULDER! Get regular dies lapped for minimum sizing or buy Redding collar dies. By working on dies I was able to head shoot chucks to 600 yards with a .220 Swift and ALSO a .300 Weatherby Mark V. Want to have fun? Try to load straight ammo in a Weatherby with the rounded shoulder using standard dies! There is no excuse to load sub standard ammo just for hunting. | |||
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I don't think anyone said anything about loading substandard ammo, Bfrshooter. I do admire your holier than thou attitude, however. I think what is being discussed here is priorities. Where a person's efforts should be directed. And what should and shouldn't worry a fellow when he is starting out. Just follow Tazzes proceedure (I only make one 180degree turn myself) and let it go. Don't even check run-out. Then you have no preconceived bias. If you have an unexplained flyer, mark that case and give it a second chance. If it comes up short, pitch it. My point is that all bullets enter the bore crooked. That is a fact. And so, to worry about the difference between .002 and .004 is silly. Also, to worry you self annointed perfectionist a bit more, when the ignition process begins the bullet is not eased into the rifling and gently sent along it's way. But rather, it is a violent thing, with the cartridge walls slamming against the sides of the chamber, the head of the case ramming backwards against the face of the bolt, hot gases forcing the primer to unseat, pressures jumping violently from zero to thousands and thousands of pounds ramming the bullet into the rifling. And, surprise, surprise the bullet don't want to go. I think it was Ben Franklin or George Washington, maybe even Al Gore that discovered the natural law of a body at rest, etc etc. But if you've a good barrel and a good load, it'll iron things out by the time the bullet gets to the end of it. I did notice that you didn't post the parameters to which you work.  | |||
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Chambers matter. If your ammo has bullets cocked to, say 30 degrees, chambering it in would force it staigter, right? So, the effective run-out is limited by the chamber/throat. A loose throat will accepth a round with some given amount of run-out, a really snug throat will accepth, or correct, for less run-out. Therefore, people who cay they can see no difference between ammo with runout from 4 to 10 thou are really saying their throat limits the runout to 4 thou. That makes it needful to concentrate on small amounts of runout if we really wish to improve the quality of our cartridges and accuracy. A tight throat also limits any possible amount of bullet tilt as it enters the bore. And we should also understand that actual runout is half of the TIR (Total Indicated Runmout) we read on our concentricity gages. | |||
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Ditto, it makes a big difference in most of my rigs. For those of you only striving to shoot moa or slightly over, I'd say it's not for you, but if you are striving for the utmost accuracy, it is very important. Good Luck Reloader | |||
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Before we get too red in the face and those little veins start twitching in our foreheads, , we ARE talking about hunting rifles --perhaps even, shudder, gasp, box guns-- not one offs made by elves under hollow logs. Even tho my remarks about the crooked bullets would apply to bench or hyper accuracy rifles also. Just to a lesser degree. And, of course, a serious competitor at any of the accuracy games knows the value of similated practice --dry firing. While some of the facets of bench shooting have aided us great unwashed to achieve better accuracy, too often the shooters take a single item and try to make a doxology of it instead of looking at the total package that is needed. They will not or can not adopt the total discipline but will try to get ahead of the learning curve by selecting one or two items and making icons of them. Were you to suggest that perhaps their time would be better spent dry firing at a spot on the wall, they think you're nuts. Any time you pull the trigger, the rifle is supposed to go boom. And with that, I rest my case. A serious competitor at Bench or Long Range MAY (and even then I'm not convinced ) make a case for nearly zero run out with a custom cut chamber in a one off but in a factory rifle or even in a semi job, if a fellow tells me he can tell the difference or achieves different results with ammo that has a run out of say .002 and .006, I'd have to see it to believe it. As I posted, I don't check my run out. Why start out with a pre-concieved bias? I fire cull my brass. It works for me. And too, I don't believe it is the resizing ball that "bends" the neck of the case unless your resizer ball and stem is way out of alignment. It's pretty easy to true those things up. If the ball is pulling straight up, how can it bend the case?? | |||
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I handload to stive for perfection in hunting rifles, including large bore, and target rifles. Runout is an important piece of information for me. When I use a sizing button, carbide or not, I inside case neck lube. I do agree that "oversizing" a case neck should be avoided. | |||
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"If the ball is pulling straight up, how can it bend the case??" I agree that aa expander ball would have to be pretty far off center to matter much. But, the neck "bending" seems to come from thinner or softer sides of a neck giving way under the stress of expanding, regardless of how well centered the ball is. No expander stem is rigid enough to prevent it and the cases are unsupported at that point anyway. Thus, bent necks occur in what appears to be random ways - not really random but it looks that way! I use Lee collet neck sizers when I can. When I need to FL size, I pull the expanders out and use a Lyman "M" expander instead. Works pretty good too but no reloading process can "fix" bad necks, toss 'em. | |||
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I think as your reloading technique get standardized, runnout on loaded cartridges gets to be small. Still, I don't worry about it. I have a shooting bud who is a Camp Perry 1000 yard Wimbleton Cup winner. He has also placed upper two or four for Highpower. He does not worry about bullet runnout. He shoots the best bullets he can find, he weighs his long range charges, and he tests primers. I have scored any number of perfect scores of his at long range. If he does not worry about it, than I don't either. | |||
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What you are really saying here is that your opinions on this subject are based on complete ignorance. Check your runout with and without your expander ball and with the expander ball adjusted in different ways and you will certainly find out that the expander ball is responsible for most runout issues. Usually brass variation is good for a couple thousands but after that it's usually the expander ball that causes the rest................................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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I am not being holier then thou! But too many blame the bullet seater for crooked brass. If the neck is already out of line, I suppose the seat operation can make it worse. Everyone works loads for their rifles by adjusting seating depth and going 1/10 gr with powder charges, trying all kinds of bullets and on and on but then say a bent case is no big deal!!!!! I suppose if we all had magic chambers that straighten out crooked loads, it wouldn't matter. | |||
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"ignorance" my, my, tacky, tacky, And for the record, there is nothing complete about my ignorance! It is a work in progress. No, I am basing my position on end results. Where the rubber meets the road so to speak. Or, more properly, where the bullet meets the target or the game animal. Using my ignorance and without the slightest idea of what my run out was, I did capture a state championship at 100 and 200 yards with factory rifle one year. The next year, I lost at 100 yards but muddled thru at 200. I did, using an absolute stock, box factory rifle, untouched by a smith, and I sure am not one, shoot a single .111 in competition. But I contribute that to the theory that if you give enough chimpanzees typewriters they will write Shakespeare, etc. I have shot enough 5 shot groups in factory competition in the low 2s to feel my ignorance is consistant enough to warrant a position and to know that these boys that talk that talk in cyberspace about their .25" groups "all day long" are either awfully good or their eyes are brown. If you get my drift. You see, I've won many matches where my agg wasn't anywhere near .25". I've done most of the silly stuff and followed just about all of the wild-eyed fads that have come down the pike in reloading. But at a certain point, however, you sit back and decide "do I reload to shoot or do I shoot to reload"? You kinda start thinking about what you're doing and stop being a "monkey see, monkey do" reloader. If you get your pleasure whilst in the shop, making what you consider to be the most perfect round of ammunition possible, then good on you. There's nothing wrong with that. If you enjoy making holes in targets, close together, or in animals, then you start weeding out some of the un-needed steps in the process so it doesn't take a week to make a cartridge. Neither side is wrong. I could tell you several other things that I don't do; that I think are a waste of time but I don't want to send you into shock. And too, time is subjective. How you spend your time is your business. | |||
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Point is simple. If you don't check the runout on your brass you would have no knowledge (aka ignorance) of what causes cases to have runout. If you had checked the runout on cases ran through the sizing die with and without the sizing ball you would have knowledgable basis for your opinions. You might have knowledgable opinions on other aspects but if you have never checked runout of your ammo or experimented as to it's causes your opinion on it is mere supposition, is that a more polite term?............................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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Hey MMM, I do not bother measuring for Run-Out and have rifles that will typically average in the 6s. Some a bit better. I simply P-FLR the Cases which gives the very best possible alignment of the Case CenterLine with the Chamber CenterLine. Everyone should do their Reloading however they want as long as it is SAFE. And there is nothing wrong with chasing after a reduced Run-Out if that is how you desire to spend "your" time. I waste a lot of time on Case Prep and Weight Sorting. But, it is "my time" to waste, so that is what I do. ----- Unless I was shooting Benchrest and having to Trim Neck Thickness to fit a Custom Chamber, I really doubt I'd ever concern myself with Run-Out. P-FLRing just works too well for me as is. Best of luck to you(as the thread degrades). | |||
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I must assume that you shoot factory ammo and factory rifles.. It does make a difference and I load all of my rifles competition or hunting to the same standard. This is a good tool---best to correct whatever it is in the process that is causing the runout. http://www.benchrest.com/hnh/ | |||
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My whole point, DJ, is I don't care what my run out is. IMO, checking run is one of those idle things that sells run out gauges and helps keep people off the streets. Like Bingo and little old ladies. I'm gonna use due diligence in making my ammo but I'm gonna shoot the ammo anyway. I'm not gonna sit it in a corner and sharpen my finger at it and call "neener, neener, neener". I'm not gonna break it down and start over. I'm not going to the range with a pre-concieved idea that this is bad ammo so's it ain't gonna shoot good. When I was shooting factory matches, the only thing I did different in my reloading procedure was with domestic brass (which would be Rem) I would turn necks after fire forming, the brass would be fire culled twice, and before a match, I would weigh the finished cartridges and lot them into groups of 7. (HC is gonna love to hear that) Often trying to do that was pretty pointless. When I used Lapua brass, it was indeed pointless. When I get a new set of dies, I'm gonna clean them and center the resizing ball and shine it up a mite and then I'm gonna start loading ammo. And shooting. If I get an unexplained flyer, I'm gonna mark the case and give it a second chance, knowing to hold especially hard the second time around, and if it still flys, it goes in the brass bucket. No matter how much time you spend talking that talk, and measuring stuff, sooner or later, you've got to come out of the shop, into the light and shoot some of that stuff. Walk that walk as it were. And, IMO, those boys that have been using reasonable care in putting their stuff together and have spent their time practicing holding and breathing and squeezing instead of angsting over the correct bevel of the inside of the flash hole are gonna be the ones standing at the front of the money line. Don'tchaknow I would like to point out that my reason for being in this is not to say one should or should not worship at the altar of run out but to point out that there are several roads to the Jeruselem of accuracy. Some, perhaps not as pious as others, but equally as effective. Yup, HC is here. Soon a couple of his buddies will show up and they'll start with the name calling and there goes the neighborhood.  | |||
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Do you win very many matches?? | |||
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But remember guys, if you have a problem and find bad run out, fix the dies or use better ones, you never need to check them again. Load and shoot! Just rolling a round on the bench will show you. If your dies do the job and your gun shoots, why bother? But I will always say a crooked round is no good from any gun and is so easy to fix, there is no reason to ignore it. You only do it once. I have rolled other fellas reloads under a dial indicator that were .020" out. Minute of pie plate at 50 yards! I lapped the neck of his size die and he shoots an inch at 100. I have a simple example and it is with .58 cal muskets and a Minie' ball. Three of my friends shot them at BP silhouette. They might get 3 out of 60 targets. Shooting at a huge paper target at 50 yards showed no hits at all, except all over the backer board. I told them the Minie' was too loose and would cock in the bore when the skirt expanded. I lapped their molds for a very snug start in the muzzle. Then they could clang a 200 meter gong with no trouble. We were only looking at a few thousandths tip to the ball. An extreme example--yes, but I want my rifle loads to be no more then .002" off even if I only shoot deer at 40 yards. Hey let me tell you about on of those muskets. I made the last lap to the mold and cast a ball. It got stuck in the bore and I could not get a screw to remove it. So I pushed it all the way down and removed the nipple. I poured in a tiny amount of FFFFG, put the nipple back in and aimed it at the 2x4 leg of my bench. The cap went "pop" and I heard a "wooo" as the Minie' went down the bore. I felt it go under my hand on the barrel. It popped out and buried itself FULL DEPTH in the 2x4. The gun only recoiled about 6". Opens your eyes to the power of a 50 gr load right fast. | |||
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I used to shoot a 6x47 bench rifle (pre 6 PPC). It was a tightneck chamber that required the case neck wall of the cartridge to be cut to a standardized thickness so that the bullet diameter plus the case wall would allow for case expansion to bullet release and no further. The objective was to eliminate the need to resize the brass. The action was trued to the barrel face. For fireforming new brass, I used a machine lathe with mandrel and a sinclair cutter to size each case wall before I could even begin to fire form each piece. Then each cut piece was full length sized without an expander ball for the ONLY time in its life. The fireforming load was placed and the shot was fired. From this point on the brass was NEVER resized. Case length was milled on a case cutter when needed, other than that, the neck wall thickness was monitered and could be re-lathed as needed. Reloading was done with an arbor press and wilson dies. One die knocked out the old primer with a pin and a palm slap. One die reset your bullet. (I had a culver in between to add the powder). All powder was adjusted by micrometer from the last load. I scale measured NOTHING after establishing the measures base setting. Does this sound like fun to any body? We all did this and worse. It was to minimize the variables assigned to the load and the gun. After that, it was wind, light, heat, and luck. Never again my friends. Back to runout on a hunting gun. If your reloads shoot well, you have no problem. If they don't, then runout must be checked. So does your scope mount, your bedding screws, your bore cleaning, your powder, your bullet lot, and on and on and on. I will finish with a smile.  This forum is great.... rc | |||
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Welllll, good gosh, stillBeeman, I had no idea you were a Match Shooter. You are as bad as me. That does seem to happen on occasion. Fortunately I'm above all that.  | |||
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Accurate Reloaders, I have gone out and settled the issue, at least in my own mind. Yesterday I went to the range and set up at 200 yds. I mentioned previously that I had separated my loads by runout. Just for S/G I started with my worst rounds, runout of 0.010-0.012". With these rounds I shot a five-shot group of 2-1/2". Then for the 0.005-0.008 rounds, the group went to 1-3/16". I didn't bother to shoot any with less than 0.005, will hunt with those. Now, this is from a right-out-of-the-box CZ 550FS, a rifle not exactly known as a tackdriver. That's plenty good enough for me; well within a deer or hog's vitals at that range. If I ever shoot at something longer than 200 yds I will be using a different rifle. I am going to attempt to tweak my sizing die, and take reasonable measures to minimize runout, but from now on I will be loading and shooting, not worrying. I probably should have just shot before I posted, might have avoided a lot of contention! I am enjoying this thread, thanks for the replies. | |||
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Oh, this has not been contention. You haven't seen a contentous thread yet. This was merely a thread where you asked for the time of day and got a history of watch making. As your reloading technique becomes more consistant, your run out will reduce. and too, reloading will permit you to shoot more which never hurts. Wonder what your groups would have been if you had not know which groups of ammo was what?? Sidebar for Boss Hoss: yes. | |||
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MMM, Not bad shooting at 200. Maybe there is a little bit of difference in runout after all. I wouldn't worry about a little contention. If we were all in the same room we'd probably be laughing over the same thing drinkin a few beers and telling each other that they were full of it. It's usually all in good fun - and sometimes you actually learn something. I swear someday I'm going to try a Creighton Ladder like HotCore suggests!...................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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DJ, where are you in OK? When I lived in beautiful, downtown Inola, I shot at Red Castle. | |||
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