The post from AnotherAZWriter regarding his experience with annealed brass got me to think of doing this experiment.

We have a brand new Tikka T3 TAC A1 rifle in 3038 Winchester, and we have the AMP annealing machine.

I have taken 20 cases of once fired RWS brass from RWS Match ammo.

10 were left as is, and 10 were annealed on the AMP machine, using their recommended settings.

Primers are Federal 210M.

First load we tried is 46.0 grains of VARGET.

2, 5-shot groups were fired with each lot, at 100 yards. Chronograph is an Oehler Model 35P.

Normal brass:

2733 fps.
Extreme spread 45
Standard deviation 19
0.923"

2729 fps.
ES 34
SD 12
1.476"

AMP annealed brass.

2729 fps
ES 19
SD 7
0.766"

2710 fps
ES 17
SD 6
0.895"

I am going to keep shooting them, annealing after each shooting the brass that has been annealed, and leaving the normal brass as is.

We will see what the results are after the brass has been work hardened after several loadings.

Standard dies? Bushing dies?

Standard full length die.

All cases were trimmed prior to the test, and I have just noticed something, not sure iof this will continue.

I trimmed them after the first firing again.

And out of the no annealed brass, 4 required trimming.

Out of the annealed brass, 9 required trimming.

I don't know what to make of this, but I will continue to trim them after each firing.

Thank you for putting this up Saeed I'm interested in the results. Kevin

Thank you for doing this. The results will be interesting.

wouldn't the annealed brass be softer and more apt to stretch?

Since acquiring a machine I anneal after each firing. I have had great results on ES and accuracy.

I'm interested to hear how you set up the duration Saeed. I used Tempilaq in a long line down the case to get a baseline but I see my heat source changes with time so using time only worked so long. I guess it will be a tempilaq case every now and then going forward.

Thanks for sharing.

The AMP machine has a recommended list of programs for each caliber and make of brass.

I am using that.

I have shot a few rounds, and will continue this.

Once I am done I will post the results.

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:
Since acquiring a machine I anneal after each firing. I have had great results on ES and accuracy.

I'm interested to hear how you set up the duration Saeed. I used Tempilaq in a long line down the case to get a baseline but I see my heat source changes with time so using time only worked so long. I guess it will be a tempilaq case every now and then going forward.

Thanks for sharing.

You don't use Tempilaq with the AMP machine; it uses inductive heating.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
wouldn't the annealed brass be softer and more apt to stretch?

I noticed no one answered you. Brass gets less ductile when it is work hardened; that means even if you use bushing dies, the neck is prone to "resist" resizing. Ever notice older cases sometimes seat really easy, esp if they are neck turned?

Well, a slight plan to the original test rifle.

A friend expressed interest in it, and he has taken that rifle.

But, I thought it would not detract too much from this test if I just continued with another rifle.

The new test rifle is a Robler Titan 6.

I used the same brass.

The results I posted above were from brass that has been fired once before.

I had 20 rounds already loaded, that is the second reload, or third firing, and they got fired while I was out of here.

Following are the results of the third reloads:

Load is 46.2 BL C2, Sierral 168 MK and Federal 210M primers.

No aneealing

2780 fps
27 ES
13 SD
0.529

2745 fps
29 ES
11 ES
0.509

Anneled

2768 fps
11 ES
7 SD
0.253

2769 fps
16 ES
11 SD
0.416

Following is fourth reloads.

No annealing

2772 fps
41 ES
18 SD
0.490

2775 fps
36 ES
15 SD
0.671

Annealed

2751 fps
23 ES
9 SD
0.680

2764 fps
23 ES
8 ES
0.548

My intention is to continue shooting these cases until they fail.

Watch for separation near the heads.
That brass stretching has to come from
some where.

George

5

No anneal

2721 fps
29 ES
12 SD
0.550

2761 fps
37 ES
14 SD
0.486

Annealed

2757 fps
29 ES
11 SD
0.446

2757 fps
16 ES
6 SD
0.570

6

No annealing

2755 fps
32 ES
12 SD
0.476

2740 fps
28 ES
11 SD
0.390

Annealed

2753 fps
25 ES
9 SD
0.374

2760 fps
53 ES
19 SD
0.318

The following were loaded with 46.1 of H380
Everything else is the same as before.

7

No anneal

2607 fps
5 ES
2 SD
0.416

2598 fps
8 ES
4 SD
0.487

Annealed

2611 fps
17 ES
6
SD
0.432

2597 fps
17 ES
5 SD
0.375

The following were loaded with 46.1 of H380
Everything else is the same as before.

8th reload

Not annealed

2586 FPS
23 ED
8 SD
0.271

2590 FPS
6 ES
2 SD
0.205

Annealed

2601 FPS
19 ES
7 SD
0.562

2581 FPS
11 ES
4 SD
0.470

9th RELOAD

Not annealed

2582 FPS
29 ES
10 SD
0.524

2568 FPS
20 ES
7 SD
0.304

Annealed

2591 FPS
15 ES
6 SD
0.370

2582 FPS
13 ES
5 SD
0.549

The annealed cases definitely expand more, and need trimming more than the ones that have not been annealed.

And we continue.

It's interesting the more you fire them, it seems the 'no annealing' seem to 'harden up' into a more consistent state and offer lower ES and SD's. I'm not sure I've shot enough in the last 10 years to get brass to that point though as I'm always moving onto another toy to play with.

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
It's interesting the more you fire them, it seems the 'no annealing' seem to 'harden up' into a more consistent state and offer lower ES and SD's. I'm not sure I've shot enough in the last 10 years to get brass to that point though as I'm always moving onto another toy to play with.

The data supports the opposite conclusion; I just analyzed Saeed's data for the following load: Load is 46.2 BL C2, Sierral 168 MK and Federal 210M primers.

A AV A ES A SD A GS N AV N ES N SD N GS
2768 11 7 0.253 2780 27 13 0.529
2769 16 11 0.416 2745 29 11 0.509
2751 23 9 0.68 2772 41 18 0.49
2764 23 8 0.548 2775 36 15 0.671
2757 29 11 0.446 2721 29 12 0.55
2757 16 6 0.57 2761 37 14 0.486
2753 25 9 0.374 2755 32 12 0.476
2760 53 19 0.318 2740 28 11 0.39
Average 2760 24.5 10.7 0.451 2756 32.4 13.4 0.513
ES of all groups 18 59

Posting from Excel on AR is painful, but suffice to say, group size is smaller (.451 vs .513), MV SD is smaller (10.7 vs 13.4), and perhaps most importantly, the ES of each individual group is far lower for the annealed group (19 vs 59). You can see it in his data: while the SD within a group of five doesn't vary that much, over time it does; as the necks harden the MV falls off. I want consistent MV over time.

I just ordered one and all the pilots I need. Got most of the stuff from Brownells, they have them $100 off right now. I had to get the shellholder and my 45-70 pilot from Creedmore.

Which pilot do I use for my 300 Ack? The 340 Wby pilot or the 416 Rem pilot?

Some years past in the years of WW2 my dad and I annealed milsurp 30-06 brass as brass was impossible to come by...We annealed and trimmed those 40 cases every firing and that brass lasted for about 7 or 8 years and a multitude of firings. Today with that wonderful PPU brass I still trim but don't anneal. I just buy another 100 rounds and go from there...If I had one of those expensive annealing machines I would anneal everything as it would be fun and interesting...I just can't find it in me to justify a commercial machine for the little amount that I shoot these days..also today I would anneal about every third firing as opposed to every time. I assure annealed brass will last much longer than non annealed brass, but PPU brass is about $55. per hundred so that's something to think about...