In going thru the data on my .358X.404 IMP.there was a noticeable HANG FIRE recurrance when using WCC844 And Wcc846. Both are surplus ball powders whose burn rates are relatively close.

The cartridge case will hold about 100 gr of 4350 to give you some indication of size. The primer of use was Win. wlrm.

I guess the question is** "Is anyone having the same result with ball powders in large capacity cases?" How common is this? roger

Light loads of BLC-2 in an '06. It can be very disconcerting!
C.G.B.

You didn't say what charge weight of those powders you used. It is well accepted, although hard to duplicate, that vastly reduced charges of slow burning powders can cause catastrophic detonations similar to using dynamite. Parker Ackley had heard of several instances when using 4831 in normal loads worked fine and when the charges were reduced in half there were signs of high pressure and actual detonations of the entire firearm. I can't remember if he was able to duplicate it or not but most loading manuals will warn you not to significantly reduce the listed charges.

Could this be a case of what I've heard called "overburn". Caused when the powder level is low enough allow the front of the powder to burn first?

HAs anybody got any experience with this, I've never seen it first hand so it could be BS

Simdow

I have had hangfires with MagPro in my 7mmRemMag. In all cases I was using a fairly spicy load (I don't remember off hand), but was using standard CCI primers. I fixed that problem by using Mag CCI primers. I stopped using MagPro because of availability and switched to IMR4350.

Rog,

Since H 335 was so accurate in my 223s, I thought I'd try it in my 22.250s....

Went out and tried firing a stiff charge..38 grains under a 55 grain SP Winchester.. I did this after dark in a nearby state forest area... just to see if the load was TOO hot or not...I couldn't believe the muzzle flash! Shot several of them....

So I went out yesterday, in daylight( of course it is cloudy and rainy here this time of year) but with a load that was listed as minimum in a manual.. 30 grains and a 55 grain SP.....

Still had one hell of a muzzle flash....

I made a mental note to myself.. don't use that powder in a firefight! at night ( LoL)... but also don't load up H 335 and be shooting prairie dogs or sage rats this summer from the prone position when it is hot and dry.... it would set the field on fire!

Back to the drawing board on that load.. or that powder in a 22.250.....

It sure turned day into night when I fired it the other night... with the size of the muzzle flash... it was HUGE!!!!!

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Rog,

Since H 335 was so accurate in my 223s, I thought I'd try it in my 22.250s....

Went out and tried firing a stiff charge..38 grains under a 55 grain SP Winchester.. I did this after dark in a nearby state forest area... just to see if the load was TOO hot or not...I couldn't believe the muzzle flash! Shot several of them....

So I went out yesterday, in daylight( of course it is cloudy and rainy here this time of year) but with a load that was listed as minimum in a manual.. 30 grains and a 55 grain SP.....

Still had one hell of a muzzle flash....

I made a mental note to myself.. don't use that powder in a firefight! at night ( LoL)... but also don't load up H 335 and be shooting prairie dogs or sage rats this summer from the prone position when it is hot and dry.... it would set the field on fire!

Back to the drawing board on that load.. or that powder in a 22.250.....

It sure turned day into night when I fired it the other night... with the size of the muzzle flash... it was HUGE!!!!!

cheers
seafire

John, I think what you are experiencing is relevent to this thread.

The loads that I was using were near maximum loads , not reduced. I should have mentioned that before. Between three of us we have burned up about 12 pounds of WCC846 ( comparable to BL-C2)this past year. Tremendous flamer and BAAROOOOMER in what ever we use it in.The WCC 844 ( comparable to 335) is a lot the same but to a lesser degree.Both powders are dirty as obviated when cleaning the rifles.

In the back of my mind when this thread was started there was the thought that perhaps higher energy primers are necessary when using similar ball powders in very large capacity cases. The intent was to see if there was enough evidence to substantiate this as a possible fact.

Rog:

I will try and load up a case or two and go out to the state forest up the road after dark and touch a few off.. and see if that makes any difference....
the Mag primers....

cheers
seafire

bartsche:
About twenty years ago I experienced hangfires when using Winchester 760 in the .348 WCF cartridge with CCI 250 primers. These were normal pressure loads for this caliber, not reduced charges. They were of rather low loading density (case not full). I switched to an extruded powder and had no further problems. I have since only used ball powders in high loading density applications. The extruded powders appear less fussy in this regard.

seafire:
A buddy of mine experienced HUGE, BRIGHT muzzle flashes using H335 behind 130 Speer HP's in his .30-06 with CCI 250 primers. It was a sight to behold! Plainly visible in bright daylight from 200 yards away and dazzling at night!

I used same load for groundhogs, H335 w/130gr speers in 30-06. Indeed the flash and roar were quite awsome. I always wondered about this since H335 is military powder and you would think muzzle flash would be frowned upon.

I think the answer is that H335 is designed for 223 and in that cartridge it is close to ideal. With other cartridges this powder can be finicky.

It seems you were already using a magnum primer
(wlrm), but perhaps the primer was (almost)a dud.

oh yeah, it looks real purdy in a 14" 223 contender barrel also. found out when i shot my first silhouette match with that powder. i changed powders in a hurry.talk about belchfire. i thought i was shooting a 16" naval gun.

Had the same problem with my 500jeffe and WLRM and surplus powders..

so I bought a can of the expected commerical powder, and tried the same thing...

hangs fires...
pull the trigger, HEAR the firing pin hit, THEN bang....

Switched to federal 215 for every case over 90grains..

the end

jeffe

I find WC846 too work very well in a .308 with a standard primer, burns clean, excellent accuracy, power, no muzzle flash.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
I find WC846 too work very well in a .308 with a standard primer, burns clean, excellent accuracy, power, no muzzle flash.

Agreed, though the problem is easy to repeat in 100+gr h20 cases
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Rog,

Since H 335 was so accurate in my 223s, I thought I'd try it in my 22.250s....

Went out and tried firing a stiff charge..38 grains under a 55 grain SP Winchester.. I did this after dark in a nearby state forest area... just to see if the load was TOO hot or not...I couldn't believe the muzzle flash! Shot several of them....

So I went out yesterday, in daylight( of course it is cloudy and rainy here this time of year) but with a load that was listed as minimum in a manual.. 30 grains and a 55 grain SP.....

Still had one hell of a muzzle flash....

I made a mental note to myself.. don't use that powder in a firefight! at night ( LoL)... but also don't load up H 335 and be shooting prairie dogs or sage rats this summer from the prone position when it is hot and dry.... it would set the field on fire!

Back to the drawing board on that load.. or that powder in a 22.250.....

It sure turned day into night when I fired it the other night... with the size of the muzzle flash... it was HUGE!!!!!

cheers
seafire

H335 and W748 are famous for their flash signature in a 223Rem, I don't see whay using them in a 22-250 would yield different results...

And that flash is why 20 years ago I started using RL7 in the 223

The H335 load that scares me (almost as being able to say "Twenty years ago... LOL) is one in the Nosler book for the 45-70...67.0grs behind a 300gr partition.... I'm not sure I want to try it for fear of starting a forest fire
OMFG that's gotta make a hell of a flash...

FWIW, I seem to recall that some loading manuals have "suggested" using Magnum primers
with most ball propellants

So, I think you are on the right track there.
Reduce the load switch to a Magnum primer of your choice and work up again... that should get rid of any hangfire.

Frankly I won't load W748, W760, H335 or H414
without a magnum cap to light it up.

W414 in a 30-06 without a Fed215 to light it up
has some "disquiting" effects.

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
....358X.404 IMP. HANG FIRE ...The cartridge case will hold about 100 gr of 4350 to give you some indication of size. The primer of use was Win. wlrm.

That is indeed a nice size bunch of Powder.

quote:

"Is anyone having the same result with ball powders in large capacity cases?" How common is this?

Hey Roger, I seem to recall using 80gr of H870(Ball Powder) in one of my old rifles and never had a Hang Fire. And just ss Jeff mentioned, I used Fed-215s with them.
---

"asdf" Primer info:
One of our AR members, asdf, PMed me awhile ago about an article John Barsness had written concerning a 25% rise in Pressure created by swapping from a CCI Primer to a Winchester WLRM while keeping all other Cartridge components the same. The article indicated Mr. Barsness used a Piezo Pressure Testing device which was barreled for a 300WinMag.

So as to shorten the discussion, Mr. Barsness noted:
2920fps at 55,800PSI with CCI Primers
2991fps at 70,100PSI with WLRM Primers

Our buddy asdf went on to mention, that he had also seen the 25% rise in pressure due to primer swaps in two different sources. First in the A-Square reloading manual for a 7mmRemMag, with the WLRM creating the large Pressure numbers. And second, the John Barsness article. He further noted the Lyman 48 Manual has some primer swap data on a smaller case, with FAR less drastic changes in pressure, only about 5%, but no WLRM data.
---

You mentioned using the WLRM Primer, and it seems Olin has made them Hotter than they used to be.

So, if all that information is true, then perhaps the "Type of Primer" is not the problem. And if we believe it is "Ignition" related, then perhaps the problem is in this list(or something else I've forgotten):

1. Primer not Seated well in the Pocket.
1a. Pocket had Residue still in it.
1b. "Woosie" squeeze on Primer Seater.

2. Too much Headspace(Firing Pin just barely reaching the Primer).

3. Dirty Firing Pin Assembly (slows Striker impact).

4. Firing Pin Spring has gotten weak.

And just for you:

5. Not Yanking on the Trigger hard enough.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Had the same problem with my 500jeffe and WLRM and surplus powders..

so I bought a can of the expected commerical powder, and tried the same thing...

hangs fires...
pull the trigger, HEAR the firing pin hit, THEN bang....

Switched to federal 215 for every case over 90grains..

the end

jeffe

Thanks Jeff. I'll do that roger

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:

Hey Roger, I seem to recall using 80gr of H870(Ball Powder) in one of my old rifles and never had a Hang Fire. And just ss Jeff mentioned, I used Fed-215s with them.

Did a lot of H870 in the sixties till I found it was coating the inside of my barrel with a Mica like substance that was really hard to remove. Figured I could live without it.
---



You mentioned using the WLRM Primer, and it seems Olin has made them Hotter than they used to be.

And if we believe it is "Ignition" related, then perhaps the problem is in this list(or something else I've forgotten):

1. Primer not Seated well in the Pocket.
1a. Pocket had Residue still in it.
1b. "Woosie" squeeze on Primer Seater.

2. Too much Headspace(Firing Pin just barely reaching the Primer).

3. Dirty Firing Pin Assembly (slows Striker impact).

4. Firing Pin Spring has gotten weak.

I think your approach is good but I've never had this problem with other powders in this cartridge except when using Standard primers. 94 grains of acc4350 goes off like gang busters. That should make our youngster think a bit.

And just for you:

5. Not Yanking on the Trigger hard enough.

I got your YANKING buddy. roger

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
I find WC846 too work very well in a .308 with a standard primer, burns clean, excellent accuracy, power, no muzzle flash.Iguess that's what a 36" barrel will do for you

Did the 30-06 today with a 110gr. pushed by 52 grains of Wcc846. The kaboooom and flash drew a lot attention and singed my Oehler. roger

You need to try the Viht N5 series powders to really 'see the light!'

Nice short barreled fullstock, light book load of N560 behind light bullet...... close range deer ready BBQd!

quote:

Originally posted by bartscheid a lot of H870 in the sixties till I found it was coating the inside of my barrel with a Mica like substance that was really hard to remove. Figured I could live without it.

H870 was a surplus lot of WC870, a Ball powder made for 20mm back in the WWII era. The early Ball powder manufacturing process left lots of calcium carbonate in the powder. Chalk water was used to neutralize acids in the nitrocellulose, which was in the form of globules of lacquer dispersed in an aqueous medium. Leftover lime in the powder helped to stabilize the powder as it continued to neutralize acids released by the inevitable gradual decomposition of nitrocellulose, and it also has a flash suppressing effect. In the mid-'60s the lime in Ball powders was identified as a cause of M16 malfunctions, and the manufacturing process was modified to reduce the residual lime in the powder. But H870 was made way before that. The similar WC860 and WC872 that have been on the surplus market in recent years don't seem to produce that buildup. If I had H870 (which I don't) and encountered that hard fouling problem, I'd try patching it out with white vinegar. Bet it'd dissolve it right out.

Hey Roger, Any chance you have a bullet in the same weight with a Cannelure on it? Maybe a Hornady on the shelf?

I've been thinking about your Hang Fire and perhaps the Bullet(s) you are using are "moved forward" by the Primer Ignition which might be enough to lower the Pressure and create the Hang Fire condition. If you have a Bullet with a Cannelure, try 4-5 of them and put a Roll Crimp into the old Cannelure.

If that seems to resolve the issue, then that Hang Fire is worse than ever, cause it could turn into the old Secondary Explosion Effect or Detonation.

And that would be REAL BAD!
---

By the way, Bruce Hodgdon mentioned a long time ago that making a Bore Cleaning Paste using your favorite Bore Cleaner and "Bon Ami" cleanser will cut the residue left by the H870. I used to burn a lot of H870 and that was the only thing I ever used that would cut it.

As well as I can remember, I never tried using Vinegar like Ricochet mentioned.

What a great bunch of guys!!!!!!!!!!!