I was given a few hundred mil-surp .223Rem rounds that are a bit tarnished. No dark spots, just a bit cloudy-- not bright. How long can I tumble them in my Midway virbo-tumbler without doing something to the powder? I have read in these pages that tumbling loaded rounds does something to the coating on the powder. Any truth to that? Can I get away with 30 minutes? 15 minutes?

I know people have tumbled loaded cartridges, but I wouldn't recommend it. I've read that there is a possibility of a detonation from the increased amount of friction between the powder granules due to the vibration. That makes sense to me, so I don't do it.

I only tumble my cases enough to remove resizing lube and to keep them from looking too grungy. I don't "shine" them. I don't know how long it would take to actually shine the cases but it has been posted several times that it does not harm. My experiences are that it doesn't but my experiences were limited to cleaning the cartridges.
Personally, i wouldn't fool with trying to shine them but would shoot 'em up and put the shine on the cases when I resized them.
The story of the tumbling changing the characteristics of the powder is an old wives tales. When you consider how much the powder/ammo is jarred around by plane, train, and truck as it travels from the factory to the end user, it should tell you how silly that idea is.

What happens is the powder is broken down by friction and that is a very bad thing because at best it will cause erratic pressures because of the changed burning rate or cause a catastrophic failure in the chamber worst case depending on the powder.

Looks like I will have to do it in my hand-powered spinner thingy with a small patch of Scotch-brite. Just the shoulder...

Take a look at these two threads over on THR;

tumbling live ammo?

chrono results from tumbled rounds.

I'm snuffy over there. Roger B. and I did some tests back in----- um 2002, posted right here on AR.

Oh to cut to the chase, 48 hours did nothing to two types of pistol powder, WW-231 and IMR 700-X loaded in 45 acp cases.



Mine were 40 S&W. and used the WW-231.

never had a problem tumbling loaded ammo. if they're really cruddy i'd throw them in with quite a bit of polish (like dillons)overnight

Apples and Oranges there old boy---do you know the difference between extruded, flake and flattened ball? For rifles Single, Double or Triple Base

Do the reseasrch and find out---this practice is stupid no matter what powder type it is esp with suplus that has been only who knows where.

Hey Mr Barnun said "there is a sucker born every minute" and it still holds true today!!

homebrewer ----- If you are man enough to tumble loaded ammo, you are man enough to get the results. What is a hand or eye, or good gun worth. Good shooting.

Here's the thread where I tumbled 300 WSM loads with R-19 powder, back in----whenever the heck it was;(archives don't have year dates on 'em)

tumbling loaded ammo

Some time back I mentioned in a similiar thread that I'd read years ago that tumbling loaded cartridges could cause an unsafe condition. Got flamed so badly (questioned my intelligence, lineage, etc.) that I did not post for a long time; and then never on this subject. Oooops....did it again....sorry.

Once again the chicken littles are running around squawking with their knee jerk responses.
As I said, just think about how much the powder is vibrated as it is transported from the powder factory to the ammo factories. Just think about how much the ammo is vibrated as it is transported from the ammo factories to the retail centers. Think about how much the ammo is vibrated as it travels from your home to a hunting camp 1000 miles away. And then try to say spending some time in a vibrator case cleaner is gonna change the ignition characteristics. ROFLMAO.
Despite that, some clown(s) are gonna come up with the usual ominous warnings of "is an eye or a hand worth trying this???" or "I've got a buddy whose cousin knows a guy who overheard a fellow in a beer joint say...." or some other viable source.
Whether or not you tumble loaded ammo is up to you. I just get tired of reading TOTAL CRAP from folks that haven't a clue. It sdounds bad, ergo, it is bad. Maybe some of you folks should consider golf.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Once again the chicken littles are running around squawking with their knee jerk responses.
As I said, just think about how much the powder is vibrated as it is transported from the powder factory to the ammo factories. Just think about how much the ammo is vibrated as it is transported from the ammo factories to the retail centers. Think about how much the ammo is vibrated as it travels from your home to a hunting camp 1000 miles away. And then try to say spending some time in a vibrator case cleaner is gonna change the ignition characteristics. ROFLMAO.
Despite that, some clown(s) are gonna come up with the usual ominous warnings of "is an eye or a hand worth trying this???" or "I've got a buddy whose cousin knows a guy who overheard a fellow in a beer joint say...." or some other viable source.
Whether or not you tumble loaded ammo is up to you. I just get tired of reading TOTAL CRAP from folks that haven't a clue. It sdounds bad, ergo, it is bad. Maybe some of you folks should consider golf.

Sorry Einstein—I shoot competition with engineers and ballisticians with the bullet manufactures who have done testing on this. Go ahead do what you want it is still stupid.

Shooting competition only means you have the entry money nothing more. It's kinda like working behind the gun counter at Walmart. I shoot competitively but, unfortunately, no one has beat a path to my door with any sponsorship money.

Don't know who these "bullet manufacturers" are nor what "testing" they have done but find me a "documented" case from a creditable source proving your chicken little assertation and I'll eat a whole platter of crow.

Too bad your vast knowledge nor that of the engineers and ballisticians that you shoot with doesn't include the fact that the MAJOR ammunition manufacturers ==people making complete cartridges, not swaging bullets on their kitchen table-- routinely tumble their finished ammo before packaging.

And really, it does come down to this: If by some bizarre freak accident a round was to ignite whilst in the tumbler, what would it hurt? Think about it. There have been a lot of test done with loose bullets being cooked off in ovens and in camp fires and such. You might get a little media on the floor; you might have to change your drawers, but, basically, other than being kinda exciting, it'd be a nothing.

quote:

...routinely tumble their finished ammo before packaging.

I figgered they did. It's always shiny like gold when you get it. I wondered how they did it. I was thinking the process they use is so hands-off that the cleaned cases were never touched by human hands until you loaded the shells into your rifle. Any way we could contact an ammo company and ask for how long they tumble the finished ammo? Do you think they'd even tell us?

i'd really be more concerned that it's 223 and not 5.56 nato and will fit your chamber.

The thing is most don't stop to think. They blindly accept that powder "grinds" itself to dust INSIDE a cartridge case.

Well I don't put abrasives in with the powder. Then that leaves the powder itself to abrade itself. Huh?? Powder is tough stuff! Ever try to crush a granual of powder? Ever have to force your drum type powder measure to CUT a granual of powder? Yeah it's a substantial substance.

Then it's coated with graphite, a natural lubricant, so it slides easily through measures. So lets see now, we have a tough, slippery substance inside the smooth walls of a brass case, grinding itself to dust?

Then there's those that say "well the deterrent coating is removed"! Oh? Removed to where? There's no evidence of it when tumbled rounds are pulled apart, it should show up as a dust with the powder. Hmmmmm, no dust to be seen on the ones I pulled apart!

The ONLY rounds I tumble are .223 after they complete the loading process from the dillon 650. Then only to get the case lube off. Those are normally 100% load density, so there's little to no room for the powder to move against itself.

Brewer. I suspect those military rounds are pretty close to 100% density as well, you should have no problems tumbling them to clean them up.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
I'd really be more concerned that it's .223Rem and not 5.56mmNATO, and will fit your chamber.

The only difference between .223Rem and 5.56mmNATO is in the weapon's chamber-- not in the ammo. A weapon chambered for 5.56mm has a longer throat to better ensure flawless breeching and extraction in automatic weapons. The .223Rem has a slightly shorter throat. Other than that, they are identical. A way around this question for any who might be considering a rifle with enhanced accuracy potential is the Wylde chamber. It accepts both .223Rem and 5.56mmNATO equally well...

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Shooting competition only means you have the entry money nothing more. It's kinda like working behind the gun counter at Walmart. I shoot competitively but, unfortunately, no one has beat a path to my door with any sponsorship money.

Don't know who these "bullet manufacturers" are nor what "testing" they have done but find me a "documented" case from a creditable source proving your chicken little assertation and I'll eat a whole platter of crow.

Too bad your vast knowledge nor that of the engineers and ballisticians that you shoot with doesn't include the fact that the MAJOR ammunition manufacturers ==people making complete cartridges, not swaging bullets on their kitchen table-- routinely tumble their finished ammo before packaging.

And really, it does come down to this: If by some bizarre freak accident a round was to ignite whilst in the tumbler, what would it hurt? Think about it. There have been a lot of test done with loose bullets being cooked off in ovens and in camp fires and such. You might get a little media on the floor; you might have to change your drawers, but, basically, other than being kinda exciting, it'd be a nothing.

I have reviewed your posts and can conclude that if you do indeed compete you don’t win much lol. I digress as the fact of the matter is this-------MANUFACTURES TUMBLE IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT PERIOD now when tumbling reloaded ammunition that may or may not have fouling inside the case or new for that matter you do not know what is happening to that powder inside of that case. Why, because Einstein, the manufactures do not run tests to determine the effect of tumbling powder (they also do not use canister grade powder but that is beside the point) because it is not intended to be abused in that manner.

Let us presume that you have some old surplus ammo and the cases are tarnished and you want to make them pretty. The process is started and it takes 24 hours to get the cases pretty for your hoseamatic. Now under some circumstances the partially broken down powder will not burn at a rate that will cause a problem. However, since it is your hoseamatic and it is 95 degrees outside not withstanding that the chamber has gotten very warm after rattling of 15 round real fast and 16 is in the chamber cooking.

If you are so naïve to believe that the degradation of the powder will have no bearing on your chamber pressure and given the above scenario are comfortable shooting said ammunition then good for you. I love competing against folks like you I just don’t want them at the same end of the line I am on in case they go BOOM LOL..

Also won the Missouri 1K Score State Championship a couple of years ago and have a few HOF points as well.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Once again the chicken littles are running around squawking with their knee jerk responses.
As I said, just think about how much the powder is vibrated as it is transported from the powder factory to the ammo factories. Just think about how much the ammo is vibrated as it is transported from the ammo factories to the retail centers. Think about how much the ammo is vibrated as it travels from your home to a hunting camp 1000 miles away. And then try to say spending some time in a vibrator case cleaner is gonna change the ignition characteristics. ROFLMAO.
Despite that, some clown(s) are gonna come up with the usual ominous warnings of "is an eye or a hand worth trying this???" or "I've got a buddy whose cousin knows a guy who overheard a fellow in a beer joint say...." or some other viable source.
Whether or not you tumble loaded ammo is up to you. I just get tired of reading TOTAL CRAP from folks that haven't a clue. It sdounds bad, ergo, it is bad. Maybe some of you folks should consider golf.

I might not have posted the response this strongly, but I agree 100% with Beeman here.

All manufacturers tumble loaded ammo.

I usually tumble anything overnight at my house, because I am too impatient to wait for it.. so I turn it on before I go to bed and turn it off when I get up.. so it tumbled from 6 to 8 hours.

The example used above of buying ammo at a gunshow, and it exploding his firearm...
I'd tend to blame it as a hot load, instead of the excuse it was tumbled too long.

another good reason, I'll disassemble unknown hand loads before I will ever use them.. if I can't identify the powder exactly, I dump it and substitute my own powder.

I will not shoot anyone's handloads but my own...unless I know who loaded it and how well he is or isn't at the reload bench.

Boss Hoss, other than calling names and a little school yard sarcasm, you haven't brought much to the table as far as facts are concerned. Maybe you should try trading your reloading kit in on a set of Pings.
By the way, that "controlled environment" you were talking about (sounds good, means nothing), I can't remember which ammo company it is off the top of my head but the "controlled environment" they use is modified cement mixers.
BH, you're in over your head. Too many knowledgeable folks find things to be different than you. Why don't you just leave it alone.


aside to Seafire: u r rite. it was a bit too strong. Not enough sleep and we mill thru this about every 3 months. And too, just like the gov'ment, NO is the easy answer. Sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Boss Hoss, other than calling names and a little school yard sarcasm, you haven't brought much to the table as far as facts are concerned. Maybe you should try trading your reloading kit in on a set of Pings.
By the way, that "controlled environment" you were talking about (sounds good, means nothing), I can't remember which ammo company it is off the top of my head but the "controlled environment" they use is modified cement mixers.
BH, you're in over your head. Too many knowledgeable folks find things to be different than you. Why don't you just leave it alone.


aside to Seafire: u r rite. it was a bit too strong. Not enough sleep and we mill thru this about every 3 months. And too, just like the gov'ment, NO is the easy answer. Sorry.

Just talked to one of my friends at Sierra and he got a good laugh at this but hey the world is full of accidents waiting for a place to happen so go ahead. Our first match is in April and several of the people mentioned above will be there. Will take this thread so they can get a chuckle out of it.

This is one of the good things about the internet ---it keeps old retired guys like you entertained which is good ..

quote:

Just talked to one of my friends at Sierra and he got a good laugh at this but hey the world is full of accidents waiting for a place to happen so go ahead. Our first match is in April and several of the people mentioned above will be there. Will take this thread so they can get a chuckle out of it.

And just what did you expect them to say? Their lawyers would have a conniption fit if they said it's okay!

quote:

Let us presume that you have some old surplus ammo and the cases are tarnished and you want to make them pretty. The process is started and it takes 24 hours to get the cases pretty for your hoseamatic. Now under some circumstances the partially broken down powder will not burn at a rate that will cause a problem. However, since it is your hoseamatic and it is 95 degrees outside not withstanding that the chamber has gotten very warm after rattling of 15 round real fast and 16 is in the chamber cooking.

If you are so naïve to believe that the degradation of the powder will have no bearing on your chamber pressure and given the above scenario are comfortable shooting said ammunition then good for you. I love competing against folks like you I just don’t want them at the same end of the line I am on in case they go BOOM LOL..

My tests and those of others show THERE IS NO DEGRADATION OF THE POWDER! Why can't you get it through your head? I can understand being firm on confirmed and documented fact, but stubborn dedication to supposed damage to the powder inside a shell is being bone headed-mule stubborn.

Grizz, I've asked for documentation a couple of times. He has no documentation just a
whole lotsa friends that know a guy who's BIL works at the Walmart gun counter who overheard a fellow say.....

BH, be sure and pass the whole thread around at your match and to all your friends at Sierra and you will quickly learn by their responses which ones know what they are talking about and which ones are like you.

This is my last post on this silly thread.

Hey Beeman, Where is "your" documentation? Sounds as stupid as when the doughnut eater used to ask for it in every thread.

It is obviuos this the 2nd most stupid set of responses you have made that I've seen.

The 1st most stupid response was when you mentioned a guy who really knows what he was talking about in the "Scent Control Thread" mentioned that he wondered, "...how many HUGE Trophy Bucks the fools who do not use Secent Control never see...".
-----

I know HomeBrewer is going to tumble his loaded Cartridges. Being a bit wreckless is something he does not seem to worry about.

quote:

HUGE Trophy Bucks the fools who do not use Secent Control never see...".

There has to be a very large number of them as season after season I don't see them either.....

Hard to walk through the woods without having to shove them out of the way!

so does this mean if i shoot a deer in the woods with tumbled ammo, that he will tumble right over??

quote:

I know homebrewer is going to tumble his loaded cartridges. Being a bit reckless is something he does not seem to worry about.

Have not done it as of February 4 at 0906 PST...

Just couldn't hold it in, could you, HC. Maybe he ought to smoke his cartridges or maybe pour some gopher pee on them.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Maybe he ought to smoke his cartridges or maybe pour some gopher pee on them.

That would be potentially Safer.

Actually I see both sides of the issue and there are some well reasoned arguments. As for me, I'm just too ancient and set in my ways to take chances that I do not need to take. But, perhaps that is being cautious just for the sake of being cautious.
-----

Hey Butch, I seriously appreciate it when they Tumble right over.
-----

Hey HomeBrewer, If you get your Cases/Cartridges tooooooo shiney, they can cause Reflective Blindness as you are loading them in the magazine. Did Mr. Woods tell me that?

I got the "wreckless" impression when you Mixed the Powders and shot them after all the Warnings.

quote:

I got the "wreckless" impression when you Mixed the Powders and shot them after all the Warnings.

I did shoot them, and I drove the 44 miles to the range without having a reck. Back home, too. The mixed powders were a total bust. The second round would not cycle up into the chamber. I guess just insufficient gas or gas pressure because of the powder not burning in full before the bullet exited the muzzle. The next step would have been to use a 20% mixture, but I said to hell with it...

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Boss Hoss, other than calling names and a little school yard sarcasm, you haven't brought much to the table as far as facts are concerned. Maybe you should try trading your reloading kit in on a set of Pings.
By the way, that "controlled environment" you were talking about (sounds good, means nothing), I can't remember which ammo company it is off the top of my head but the "controlled environment" they use is modified cement mixers.
BH, you're in over your head. Too many knowledgeable folks find things to be different than you. Why don't you just leave it alone.


aside to Seafire: u r rite. it was a bit too strong. Not enough sleep and we mill thru this about every 3 months. And too, just like the gov'ment, NO is the easy answer. Sorry.

Oh for Pete's sakes kids. The Department Of Transportation (DOT), The Transportation Safety Administration (TSA) and The U.S. Army (Sappers) have all done transportation safety testing transporting explosive powders and propellants. All manufacturers are required to submit their new unlicensed product for testing and if a passing grade is given, a special "haz-mat" shipping license is issued. You can find the testing procedures at the appropriate organizations website. But from what I understand, tumbling live ammunition for 24 hours is one of the tests. And if it were to fail, I would think that a "DO NOT tumble live ammunition" warning would be placed on the ammunition carton!?