I'm sure this has been posted many times but I'd like to hear the opinions again. Why did it fail ? Why isn't it more popular ?

I have to vote for the 338-06 ? The 30-06 has been neck downed to great success, what not expand it ? Was it because of A-Sqaure ?

I forgot, which one's are doomed ? SAUM's ? 7mm WSM ? 323 WSM ? Just wondering. And no I'm not a short mag basher. They have their niche I guess.

A lot of what goes on in the industry is marketing by the companies & the gun rags. Nothing wrong w/ that but that's why we have a dirth of calibers to choose from. Support is another aspect. Remington is notroiuos about bringing something out & then not supporting it (few rifle models, ammo variaty, etc.). The .280 is a good example. I think it just a bit better than a .270 but the .270 got all of the press & Rem. didn't know how to market it.
The .323WSM is another one that I scratch my head over. The 8mmRM failed, this one will too. Now if Rem. was smart they would bring out a .330SRUM in their M7 & M700 mt. rifle, but rpobably not.

358 winchester... simply the best north american round, period...

loaded to reason pressure ---factory that is--- it will throw a 225gr .411 bc bullet 2525...

or, to put it in perspective... about that same as a 168gr match bullet from a 308... --.420 bc, 2600fps...


it was labeled by a big sissy gunwriter as kicking too much and being short range....


same sissy that thought it didn't group well...


STILL has a cult following.. one of the most chambered obsoletes in the world, and winchester now offers it from the custom shop, as well as still making ammo.

i think every major maker, except weatherby, made at least on line of guns on it.. win, rem, ruger, savage, browning, sauer, mannlicher sauer, colt, and on and on...

another round slain by a typewriter

doomed

probably all of the wsm/rum/short sm/rum....
the big ones kick WAY too much.. and that's from a recoil junky, for what they do... and to be BETTER than say the 300 win, the barrel has to be 28-30 inches, rather than 24... which means it won't fit in a standard gun case...

the short ones are just about as good as any 308 based round... which kind of brings us back to the 358


jeffe

Another round that Remington introduced and now doesn't support much is the 260 Remington. It seems that for every rifle they chamber in 243 Winchester they ought to also routinely offer it in 260 Remington. I'd rather start a kid on the 260 than the 243.

quote:

it was labeled by a big sissy gunwriter as kicking too much and being short range....

Jeffe,

Who was that?

Have you read the old Gun Digest article by Matunas where he claims that if you drop a .358 round into the snow and then chamber it there will be a misfire due to what he says is an inadequate shoulder?

I've always like the 7mm Mauser, 257 Roberts, 284 Win., 264 Win. Mag., 300 H&H, 8mm Rem. Mag. and the 350 Rem. Mag. I'd like to see all of these make a comeback, especially the 284 Win....

AD

I don't think the "classics" will ever die out as those of us who know will keep them going. I have to scratch my head tho as to how the 30 carbine keeps on. If any cartridge deserves to be moribund, that one does.
What do I know, I was impressed with the hole a 35 Remington left in a deer.

quote:

358 winchester... simply the best north american round, period

Ditto.
The .348 ain't too shabby either.

It is very easy and not very expensive to convert most factory rifles to your favorite "Obsolete".

For example you can easily have a .280 Remington on any rifle chambered for one of the .30-'06 family of cartridges. Some can be rebored and rechambered, some need a new barrel. I built a .280 Rem on a previous '06, only I stamped it 7 mm Express Remington. Why? Well, because I could I guess.

The .260 Rem and the .358 Win are easy too, although I did see a M70 Win the other day in .358 that tempted me until I thought about the .376 Steyr on a Mauser commercial intermediate action I have "in progress".

Having a caliber available in a cheap factory rifle is like cake and eating it too.

jim

Dittos on the 358 Win, enough gun for all NA game inside 250 yds.

IIRC, that sissy gunwriter was Jack O'Connor. I too am a fan of the .358. Most under rated round that ever came out, IMHO.
I do have a gripe with some of the gun makers though. Winchester used a 1 in 12" twist rate in their barrels. I think Savage and Browning followed suit. So Ruger in all their infinite wisdom bring the Model 77 out with a 1 in 16" twist. What in bloody hell were they thinking?
A bit OT, but the .35 Whelen originally came with a 1 in 12" twist as well, yet Remington and Ruger both handicapped the round with a 1 in 16" twist rate. Methinks some of those idiots at the gun companies should get theur heads out of their asses.
Paul B.

.358 Norma Magnum, obsolete due to no doubt many of the same reasons that befell the .358 Win. Great round, very powerful, and it really doesn't kick as bad as many .338's I have fired.

What happened to the .280 Rem. is indeed sad, but I guess that makes it better for those of us who own one. I believe it is making a comeback, or at least has stabilized in popularity. Another great round, IMHO.

Certain oldtimes are almost cyclical in their popularity. Two that readily come to mind are the 7mm mauser and the .257Roberts. You'll hear little or nothing about them for years. thinking they are surely finished this time when a sudden renewed interest in them will spark a renewed round of chamberings to meet their new popularity. Then after a few years they'll sink back near anonymity again.
Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
IIRC, that sissy gunwriter was Jack O'Connor.

Actually, O'Connor described the .358 as his idea of an ideal woods cartridge. He did say its recoil is unpleasant in the original 61/2-7lbs M70 Featherweights the gun was introduced in, but probably the biggest thing that befell the .358 was that it didn't reach 3000 fps, which is what most people think is necessary to kill game nor had the nostalgia/charisma/whatever of the big-bore hammered levers that continue to sell.

I too am a fan of some of the less popular rounds, most notably the .280 Rem. Just bought a .257 that I am itching to wring out as well. All the "obsoletes" have their sad stories, but I bet if things worked out differently and the popular and non-popular counterparts swapped places (i.e. the 6mm Rem sold like crazy and the .243 didn't), us gun nuts would be pondering the same question.

-Lou

Allen, I like your list and agree the the 284, in particular, is a great round that never got its "dues"... I'd also add one of the great orphan's of all time, the 6.5 Rem Mag. Granted, it does little the 270 can't, but it is a true SA cartridge (I like SA's) and is actually a nicely "balanced" cartridge I'd not hesitate to use on nearly anything in NA.

quote:

inadequate shoulder?

more shoulder than a 35 whelan..... heh

i have following "obsoletes"
257 roberts
358 win
500 jeffe
376 steyr

let's see, a 257 and 358 kick far less than a 25-06 or 35 whelan...

the 376 is the coolest round COMMERCIAL invented in 25 years, excluding the 450 rigby perhaps

the 500 jeffe is a neat round, but hindered by FEEDING, which i think the 500 ahr fixes

new stuff... the 550 express, magnum and flanged, and the 470 mbogo are awesome...



jeffe

Of the European rounds, it was a great pity that the 8x65RS did not make it. Its rimless cousin, the 8x64S, is only hanging on by the skin of its teeth - in spite of recent interest and more guns chambered for this excellent round.

It would have been fantastic to have the 8x65RS to cover the gap between the ubiquitous 7x65RS and larger offerings. The 8x75RS is still (semi-)alive, but ammo is very scarce and super expensive, the round also gets a bit pushy when shot from lighter guns. After that, you almost end up with a 9.3x74R if you want a large rimmed caliber. Pity that. The 8x65RS would have been ideal - versatile and yet big enough to make a difference on pigs and heavier European game.

- mike

3584ELK-Norma still makes ammo and brass. Problem is, rifle companies are not chambering it and gun writers have not been promoting it, For some reason the industry "thought" 338 win was so much better. Perhaps it would been more successful as 358 win mag or 358 rem mag?

280 Rem is not very popular in Europe while 7X64 is.

Mho- Isn't Ruag "Blaser" making ammo for the 8X75RS? I'm very pleased with my ZG-47 in 8X64S, a very nice rifle and versatile caliber

A double in 8X65RS would be my choice for driven hunts

Cheers,
/ JOHAN

quote:

Originally posted by Lou270:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
IIRC, that sissy gunwriter was Jack O'Connor.

Actually, O'Connor described the .358 as his idea of an ideal woods cartridge. He did say its recoil is unpleasant in the original 61/2-7lbs M70 Featherweights the gun was introduced in, but probably the biggest thing that befell the .358 was that it didn't reach 3000 fps, which is what most people think is necessary to kill game nor had the nostalgia/charisma/whatever of the big-bore hammered levers that continue to sell.

I too am a fan of some of the less popular rounds, most notably the .280 Rem. Just bought a .257 that I am itching to wring out as well. All the "obsoletes" have their sad stories, but I bet if things worked out differently and the popular and non-popular counterparts swapped places (i.e. the 6mm Rem sold like crazy and the .243 didn't), us gun nuts would be pondering the same question.

-Lou

I did read Jack's comments on the .358, but I felt he was damning it with faint praise. I've been accused of being in love with the 35 caliber. Well that's only partly true. I don't like the .35 Rem. I had one and I sold it off. However, I do have two Ruger 77s, a Savage 99, a Browning BLR and a Kodiak Mauser, all in .358 Win. The Browning and Savage have the proper 1 in 12" twist rate, the others do not. That Savage BTW is one of the most brutal guns I've ever shot. The stock is way too short and no recoil pad. I have to do something about that. All shoot good groups with 200 gr. bullets but only the Browning and Savage group well with 250 gr. bullets.
As long as I'm discussing twist rates, I have three rifles in .35 Whelen. The Remington 700 Classic and Ruger 77 have the slow twist and while accuracy is OK with the 1 in 16" twist, the custom Mauser with a 1 in 14" twist will out shoot them.
I just strongly disagree with O'Connor that the .358 is a short range cartridge. Unforntuantely I did not acqurie one until long after his passing. I seriously would have challenged to stand out at abouy 300 yards or so and see if he still felt it eas a short range cartridge.
Paul B.

I'm a budding .35 cal fan as well. Took my first whitetail with my .35 Whelen 700 Classic this year. It's scary how well it groups 225 gr Ballistic Tips. A big bore, obsolete round should not be that accurate

I expect O'Connor lumped the .358 as an ideal woods round similar to how he lumped the .270 as an ideal open country round. Not that it won't work, just that it's not "ideal".

-Lou

For all the praises Jack O'Connor bestowed upon the 270 Winchester, he and wife Elenor sure used the 7X57 and 30-06 a bunch!