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tnekkcc Larry, I took a rifle I chambered in 6mmBR, Rem700/Krieger 1 in 8 twist/ Harrell brake/ Choate Ultimate sniper stock/ IOR 2.5x10x42 scope for the first time to the Issaquah range yesterday for the first time. The load was 33 gr H335 87 gr Vmax 2.290" OAL [jammed into the lands, the throat will seat the bullet that much further anyway]. I chambered another 6mmBR on a 1917 Sav99 take down 22-250, Shilen 1 in 14" twist, that does not have as tight a firing pin / firing pin hole fit. Working up loads in that rifle leads to a different load. What would you do to work up a load, rather than work up to primer pierce and back off? First of all we apparently have much different views on what we are working up a load for. You apparently have "maximum" pressure in mid. I have maximum accuracy at an acceptable (for the cartridge and rifle) pressure and velocity. In my old reloading days prior to getting the M43 I would use all of the "pressure indicaters" that are mentioned in most all reloading manuals. I learned a long time ago what high pressure looked and felt like without having to go to the point of piercing a primer and then backing off. Also I would have velocity expectations aalong with consistent ES and SD expectations. The chronograph will provide that information along with telling me when the load gos flat (that is when velocity incresases of a given weight increase of powder get smaller). Accuracy also would be monitored as an additional indicator. That is how I would work up a load in the old way. Subsequent to obtaining the M43 I would affix a strain gauge to the rifle and then test for best accuracy (grouping at 100 or 200 yards and consistent acceptable ES and SDs) with an acceptable pressure (MAP). Given this is a M700 we are talking about an acceptable MAP would be in the 55,000 to 63,000 psi(M43) on a typical 60 to 70 degree day (it was 63 degrees here in University Place yesterday). The 63,000 psi gives a safety margin for when I might shoot in warmer weather. Of course the accuracy and the velocity in fps along with a good ES/SD would give priority over the psi. If I got better accuracy and a more consistent load at a lower psi then that would be my selection. After the Rem700 gets it's firing pin hole bushed, I will work up new loads for it. How would you work up the new loads for the Rem 700 after getting bushed? The exact same way as I did before it was bushed. Estimating the primer max pressure and measuring the pressure are fraught with error. Estimating the pressure based solely on the appearence of the primer after firing is indeed "frought with error". However, measuring the pressure with the M43 Oehler is not. It is a very precise and consistent method of actually measuring the pressure. There is no guess work involved. The M43s results are consistent with factory measured psi. How do I know that? I purchased seral diffferent lots of .308W ammunition from Federal and Winchester. I contacted both federal and Winchester and they were kind enough to give me the MAP and other test information on each of those lots of ammuntion. I tested those lots in 3 different rifles. Given the expected differences between SAAMI test barrels and chambers vs commercial barrels the MAPs I obtained with the M43 were quite consistent with the factory psi's. (Hot Core; that is called using "reference ammuntion") Knowing the difference between the factory psi's and that given by the M43 gives me a base line to judge the effectiveness of the M43. The M43 is very effectve and very consistent. What is wrong with working up to the real limiting factor, and then backing off? It just makes sense to me. Blowing up guns, blowing primers and loading to the point of piercing primers may "make sense" to you but it does not to most of us and probably everyone in the industry. Besides there are many firearms that would be damaged by loading to the maximum limits of just the cartridge cases alone. Most all of us realise that there are other very important limiting factors than just the cases. How would YOU do that without working up until the primer pierced and then backing off? First of all I wouldn't work up any load until the primer blew intentionally. Secondly I believe I have already covered how i would and do work up loads. Larry Gibson | |||
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What does it all mean? 1) For those you still stuck, just keep chanting, "Pressure doesn't matter, the effects of pressure matter. Ignoring the brass is taking leave of your senses." 2) If you can't develop your own loads from scratch by looking at the brass, then use a recipe from a load book. Be content with your station in life. | |||
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tnekkcc, I'm starting CGE measurement, thus I need some help. When you measure case groove expansion (CGE), I assume you're measuring case head diameter at the groove - correct? And, from your posts I assume you accept CGE of less than 0.001 inches as safe - correct? I just got my micrometer and will measuring soon. Regards, AIU | |||
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That is what I do. I don't own a contender. I do that kind of work up to case bulge, primer pocket growth, or primer piercing in: Ruger #1 Win M70 Sav 110 Sav 99, even the old ones Arisaka 96 Swede 1903 Oberndorf M98 1938 K.Kale M98 VZ24 Mosin Nagant 91/30 Rem700 AR-15s Handi Rifle Stevens .410 break action with rifle brass Tokarev pistol Glock 22 pistol Glock 20 pistol Glock 19 pistol Kel-Tec P11 pistol Kel-Tec P40 pistol Kel-Tec P32 pistol Kel-Tec P3AT pistol Patriot 45 pistol Colt 1911 pistol Para Ord pistol Colt 1908 pistol Colt 1903 pistol Not recommended, but I have done it: SKS CZ52 pistol [chamber busts before brass grows] | |||
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tnekkcc, thanks for the comeback. Regards, AIU | |||
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tnekkcc The exact same way as I did before it was bushed. I think you would be better off knowing the max pressure your brass can sustain and then looking for max accuracy below that load. "What you think", really now. That is rather egotistical of you to insinuate that what I do whould be what you do. I explained the difference we have in concept. and apparently it is beyond you. If you don't use the higher pressure capability of the small primer 6mmBR brass, that is up to you. I don't care if you still have trainer wheels on you bicycle, just don't go to some advance biking forum and claim your system is the best. Thank you very much but I believe that the industry pressure standard for the newer magnum cartridges is quite enough at a MAP of 65,000 psi. In the smaller case of the 6mmBR it doesn't take much to go beyond what is considered safe, at least safe by the industry and a few here. As to your snide remarks they are atypical of you and Hot Core. BTW; I never claimed my system was best; it is you and Hot Core who continually claim your systems are best bepersonally degrading anyone who poses an alternative method. However, the M43 is much more reliable than CHE and much safer than your loading 'til something blows and then backing off. The pictures you just posted give ample evidence of the problem with your method. Now your ego may let you think your methology is better but the industry and almost everyone else doesn't agree. If that puts you in an "elite" status then so be it. Ou contraire. The threshold of primer pierce is the REAL pressure limit in 6mmBR and is fairly reproducable. The pressure measurement with an M43 is miles off and knowing the pressure is irrelevant, as the primer pierce threshold in 6mmBR is different with every firing pin /firing pin hole fit Kindly show us the results of your tests of the 6mmBR with a M43 that demostrate it "is miles off"? I hate to break this to an "engineer" but 65,000 psi is till 65,000 psi regardless of the firing pin/hole fit. The rest of us would not build a 6mmBR unless the firing pin/hole fit was correct much less push pressures to 65,000. That's rather an assinine point, point you agree. Here we see critsism of the M43 by a competitor: Do you really think a competitor is going to praise their competition? For an engineer that is pretty bad thinking. BTW; Pressure Trace uses strain gauges also. I'm not sure how they think theirs does any better than the Oehler M43. I tried to get a Pressure Trace for some time and they were always "unavailable" do to the very reasons Oehler says the M43 is unavailble for. Might have something to do with the economy and some psrts not readily available. However, simply because something is no longer available does not mean that it does not work. I would think an engineer of your self renowned knowledge would understand that. Again I would ask for your own results using a M43 with any cartridge(?). [color:RED]Mesuring psi is smart for selling ammo... but mostly irrelevant [compared to feedback from the brass] for developing one's own handloads. Yes indeed, it is smart because it is safe. Most handloaders do not know the actual pressures of their handloads. However by using industry pressures as guidlines most handloaders are safe with their handloads and would prefer to dtay that way. What is wrong with working up to the real limiting factor, and then backing off? It just makes sense to me. Blowing up guns, blowing primers and loading to the point of piercing primers may "make sense" to you but it does not to most of us and probably everyone in the industry. Besides there are many firearms that would be damaged by loading to the maximum limits of just the cartridge cases alone. Most all of us realise that there are other very important limiting factors than just the cases. That is true for people who work at McDonald's and post at the dumber forums, but there are a number of engineers here. With the exception of you I don't know of any engineers who handload who espouse the "load 'em 'til they blow" sysstem. All the real engineers I know who handload respect pressure and stay within recommended parameters. They understand it is safer that way and less damaging to firearms.  If I can do this in a 100 year old Mauser with no damage to the rifle or me, just to the brass, then many others who are not cowardly can look for a .001" increase in the extractor groove in a load work up in a strong rifle. Many persons at this forum have the where-with-all [read "some connections in the frontal lobes of the brain"] to look at the brass, rather than waste time and money, while introducing error with an M43. You bought an M43? Sucks to be you. [/QUOTE] Cowardly? Most all handloaders and all the industry engineers would look at that photo and think more of "stupidly". To be safe is not cowardly, it's rather intelligent actually. Larry Gibson | |||
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Yes, cowardly. Deal with fear. | |||
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Results? What results?
The only CHE 'results' I see is your subtraction of the before and after case firing measurement. You highlighted them in red. Please tell every beginner reading this what a CHE of, for instance, .xx15" actually means? Does it mean that load was at a dangerous pressure level? Or a normal pressure level? Or something else altogether? Your largest CHE measurement was .0002". Did you determine it to be normal, MAX or dangerous? | |||
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Amazing you, of all people, would ask. I thought you had all the answers with your M43.  Actually the esteemed Mr. Woods was totally correct - it made no sense at all - illogical CHE readings. That specific set of CHE Data was selected to show what happens when a person uses "new unfired" Cases and attempts to get any meaningful Data using CHE, or EGG. You had mentioned somewhere in a thread that CHE only worked on "new unfired" cases, or words to that effect. Perhaps it was in your PT Barnumish Scam Thread. And of course, your comments were 100% totally WRONG. ----- PRE still worked properly and shows something Significant which a Reloader with a modicum of experience should be able to recognize from the "Averaged" PRE Data. There is a chance your Haphazard(pretty much worthless) M43 would have caught what the PRE did - if - the user had enough knowledge to understand. Of course the Average M43 user simply relies on what the LED says and trys to avoid thinking in any way. So, what do you "think" the PRE Data indicated?  | |||
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I think there may be an impasse here that is emotional. When Clinton said, "I feel your pain", he was attempting to acknowledge emotions, as a prelude to problem solving. The 1965 book "Between Parent and Child" by Dr. Haim Ginott had principals an techniques later revived and popularized by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish in their book in the 1980s, "How to talk to kids so kids will listen & listen so kids will talk". An important principle is that the problem cannot be solved until the emotion is acknowledged. Hot Core, maybe we could preface posts with something like, "You sound like you are not comfortable working up until the brass changes. I wish there were no risks in life. If I do it, while you stand back and watch, will that help you?" Maybe with this technique of emotional acknowledgment, we could get posters to face their fears. We might even kiss and make up with Denton Bramwell. | |||
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HC, Name calling? You could have stopped it before it ever began by posting common sense data with your results and conclusions. You chose not to. Now suffer. I quoted Rifle and Handloader editor Dave Scovill about only using new cases and then chucking them. I didn't pick it out of thin air. It was published in 1998. Has it been superseded by some later testing procedure? I don't know all the answers of the M43. But I damn well learn more about my reloads when I use it! And I have a permanent record unlike your method where you write down your data with a pencil on a cocktail napkin.  I admit to knowing little or nothing of using CHE or PRE because I looked and looked through every pawn shop from here to Timbuktu and could not find a thin blade mic. You know, the thingy that every good CHE boy and girl needs to perform your method...the thingy that not even one online reloading superstore offers for sale...that you couldn't offer an opinion on as to why they didn't. So all I know of it is your hyperbole and Ken Waters article in his Pet Loads. Which, I propose, is useless and now irrelevant, just like you. So not only are you a liar...that CHE is the greatest pressure measuring system, yada, yada, yada, ad infinitum...but you're also a fraud...for posting the bogus CHE & PRE chart at the top of this thread. Never have you held any of your real CHE results up to scrutiny...NOTHING. I believe you're just a semi-senile old troll getting his jollies on Saeed's forum. If you had any hard evidence, you would have posted it already to back up your hubris. I suspect you're just a bloated hot gas bag. You are despicable and pitiable. I'm going to start a thread charting load work-up using BLUEDOT powder on my M43. Now don't open it or you just might cause yourself a coronary. I'm not kidding!  Both Bluedot and M43 might be just too much for your tired old ticker...might blow a gasket, seeing as your hatred for them is well documented. So don't even peek. That's my warning. I won't be held responsible for your continued physical health. I don't think anything could help your present mental health. Looky what I found on 24hrcampfire by none other than John Barsness, a real published gun writer and self-proclaimed rifle looney:
He doesn't seem to think CHE is at all reliable. To all you beginners...who ya gonna trust? Barsness or some dude named hotcore from who-knows-where, with who-knows-how-much experience. | |||
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You had the cash to toss on an M43. Why is buying a blade mike so difficult? If you were really interested you would not be using the cost of a blade mike as an excuse. Search the internet. I guarantee that you can find one yes even a used one. BTW you trust the magazine writers way too much. There is a reason they are writers and not employed as engineers. | |||
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I have the blade mic and the M43. I also was using CHE long before HC "invented" it on the internet. The M43 is/was expensive and everyone can not afford it. What this thread has boiled down to is the 2, maybe 3, posters are whining severely and wanting to take thier football home. They have to resort to name calling because their facts are disproven over and over again. tnekkcc calls me a coward. He fails to realise that I've told him and others over and over again that I used to be where he is. What he fails to realise is that I learned from my mistakes how to take pressures to a safe maximum for the given firearm without exceeding them. He has not. That in and of itself explains the difference between us. I do not think I am a coward, I am smarter than that. He probably likes to say; "Hey bubba, you ain't gonna believe this shit....here hold my beer"........Good thing he shoots at another range. He would be kicked off the range where I shoot if they knew of his "loading" techniques. But then I guess all the "engineers" up north are smarter and certainly braver than we are down here. How about he and HC continue to advise on their methods and the rest of us will continue to advise on our safe methods and let the questioner use facts of each side to make their own decision. Is the name calling really necessary (from both sides)? Larry Gibson | |||
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I am struck by the dichotomy whereby CHE is unreliable because there is difference in characteristics between different batches/makes of brass and at the same time M43 measured pressure is unreliable because there is a difference in characteristics between different batches/makes of receivers! Gentlemen, you are all saying the same thing viz, that methods of indirect pressure measurement, ie by measuring plastic deformation (in the case case CHE ) or elastic deformation (in the case of a strain gauge) are not infallible but may under the right circumstances be a useful indicator of what ballpark one is in, as lo0ng as one has taken the time to familiarize one's self with the strengths and weaknesses of the technique employed. Could therefore the two faction present shortish cases for why their method is more reliable, starting from an explanation of the physics, through to the practical manifestation of the physics and finally the conditions whereby their method could be re-created. For example with CHE, I understand that it is not an absolute figure of 0.000x" of displacement that were are looking for rather a relative average displacement over a statistically sufficient number of cases, compared to those same cases before firing. With the M43 the load pressure can be measured next to some "safe" factory ammo of varying brands, in conjunction with the chrono data, establishing some sort of industry standard datum of cartridge loading, by measuring the elastic deformation of that particular reciever. After all, we are interested in our own rifles, not a hypothetical test barrel. Regards, GH | |||
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Well said Larry, thank you for posting on this thread, I for one have learned a heck of a lot from it. Regards, GH | |||
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HC and/or tnekkcc, it would seem to me that measurieng Case Groove Expansion would work with brand new cases - correct? The case groove is not resized, but will continue to grow with repeated hot loads. Regards, AIU | |||
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Hey onefunzr2, You seem to be missing that I'm now laughing at you rather than with you. Your getting more predictable all the time. Beats me, I have no idea what you are blabbering-on about. I quit taking Handloader years ago when howl ruined it. That is a nice feature and obviously worth the combined $4k-$5k overall cost to get that done. I'll quote you here " "Ken Waters information is "useless and now irrelevant"???  Your reading comprehension is as bad as your language. I've told you before the CHE & PRE that started the thread is real. Only the M43 loonacy is fabricated and I mentioned that in the Heading. Just because you don't have enough Reloading knowledge to be able to see what it clearly tells you does not mean other folks I'm hearing from don't. Yes indeed, I can see through you and realize you are(as they say in TX) all Hat and no Cattle. Or as everyone realizes on the Board all M43 and no Reloading knowledge. My old buddy Tnekkcc might be able to help you with that. He is an ardent believer and dedicated user of Reduced Blue Dot Loads the last time I checked. In fact, I strongly support "your" use of Reduced Blue Dot Loads.  Your language fits my image of your character perfectly. Thanks for verifying it.  Yes, a good old Gun Writer who believes CHE & PRE are worthless, that a person can "Anneal Cases" with a candle and that any scope with an Objective Lens over 40mm is useless. I'd have picked him as one of your Heros had you not brought him up. It appears you both have about the same amount of knowledge.  ----- And the reason it upset him is he doesn't have a clue, totally devoid of the ability to think for himself. Yes indeed, he is the perfect candidate to use Reduced Blue Dot Loads and a M43. | |||
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You end up with Illogical Info rather than solid, reliable Data. You can see it in the opening post on this thread. And that is why the Link on how to use CHE & PRE mentions CHE readings should be taken on Firings 2<->6. Just Fire Form the Cases, which should be happening anyhow, and then they are Once-Fired and ready to go. | |||
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Hey Ghubert, That is incorrect. What ever lead you to that belief is all wrong. Having the "different characteristics between different batches/makes of brass" is what makes EGG, CHE & PRE vastly superior to everything else. The readings come "directly from the Case", not some 3rd hand, non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, fudge factored, glued on Haphazardly strain gauge fiasco. If your Case Heads are "soft" in one Lot, you can detect it with EGG, CHE & PRE. None of the Haphazard SGSs, nor the SGSs(Lab) can tell you that. Same if the Case Head has a higher Temper(Harder). That and all the things I've listed before: 1. Impossible to calibrate. 2. Guessed at dimensions. If you try to measure the Chamber Wall thickness as I mentioned to you earlier, you will quickly realize the problem. 3. Fudge Factor or Correction Factor(as used industry wide) to compensate for hosed-up Strain Gauge readings from the beginning. But without actual SAAMI Reference Ammo(Calibration Ammo) there is no way to know which way to "Fudge" the Factor. No, there is nothing "indirect" about EGG, CHE & PRE, they are all First Hand, Direct Pressure Indicators. The Haphazard SGSs and SGSs(Lab) derive their info 3rd hand. 1, Case responds to the Pressure. 2. The Chamber responds to the Case. 3. The Strain Gauge responds to the Chamber. And a good argument could be made for it being 4th hand info since the strain gauge impulses must be massaged by the Mathmatical Model Software. (I'll just call it as it is and go with 4th hand info in the future.) Each transfer of info deminishes the validity. That is correct. Each Case is slightly different just as everything else in the world. So by taking an Average of a few Cases, during Load Development with a specific Lot of Cases, you can use that excellent First-Hand Pressure Data for the remainder of the Lot. In the use of a Haphazard SGS(Home), the use of "pressure can be measured" is not the best choice of words. But, I can see how you could be mislead to believe that is the situation. Yes indeed. I am very interested in your Measuring the Chamber Wall Thickness on any of your Rifles. Please let me know how well it comes out for you. ----- Where did Bobby run off to. Ask him a simple question about the "Variance" in Haphazard SGSs(Home) that Dr. Oehler told us about and he disappears. Amazing. | |||
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Much to your dismay, Hot Core, I did not "run off." I don't sit at the computer around the clock. In fact, I had to work through a migraine and extreme pain in my hip and hands today to shoot a wedding. ---- Hot Core would love to have everyone believe that Dr. Ken Oehler is in total agreement with him. But that is so far from the truth that is it sad indeed. Here are a few things Dr. Oehler wrote in regards to Hot Core: "Hot Core has expressed displeasure that there is no "After Installation" calibration of the strain gage system. To the best of my knowledge, this is true for ALL methods of chamber pressure measurement. I challenge anyone to provide a clean calibration procedure for any measure of chamber pressure in a rifle. It's much easier to throw stones and cast doubts that it is to prove truth without possible exception." Again, to Hot Core, Dr. Oehler wrote: “Here's where we probably part company. I know of no "SAAMI Calibration Ammunition" which has a know pressure. Such wonderful ammo just doesn't exist. I suspect that you are referring to SAAMI Reference Ammunition. This reference ammo is not intended for pressure calibration, but its primary application is the determination of the "average" test barrel." Also written to Hot Core by Dr. Oehler: "It's apparent that we've agreed to disagree, but I'm curious regarding a couple of points. 1. Is your opinion based on your actual use or observation of the Model 43?" ----- Well, here is the answer to that, because Hot Core, in another thread, admitted: "I have never owned or had personal access to a M43." And to think he has such strong OPINIONS regarding them...  Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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 Great detective work Bobby, catching old HC in a bald-faced lie!!! I wonder which one we're supposed to believe: the one where he and his 'buddy' trip over M43 wires like Keystone Cops in the very first post of this thread, or "I have never owned or had personal access to a M43?"
All the beginners reading this thread should be having second (and third, and fourth, etc.) thoughts about his incompetence at getting his story straight much less his ineptness at posting any semblance of proof that CHE fulfills his bombastic boasting about its proficiency to accurately and reliably detect chamber pressure. Just like the ballistic pendulum of old gave way to the modern electronic chronograph, so CHE, which was all they had almost 40 years ago, gives way to the M43 Personal Ballistics Labratory (PBL). Telephone lines put the Pony Express out of business, so the PBL has put CHE out of business. Hell, the last time Ken Waters' CHE precedure was published was 1982. How much has improved in our lives since '82? I'd wager lots of reloading beginners weren't even born in '82. Yet HC tries to ram down our throats that outdated CHE has never been improved upon. What utter nonsense! Why, it's like time stood still since CHE's heyday. Kinda makes you wonder if old HC is still computing on a 1982 model computer? It's almost like he's stuck in a Groundhog Day scenario, reliving the day when he first discovered CHE over and over, like he's stuck in a revolving door. Or like the sound a phonograph record makes when it skips: CHE's the best, hick, CHE's the best, hick, CHE's the best, hick, CHE's the best, hick, ad infinitum. Poor broken record Hotcore. He must be getting dizzy by now going round and round in his own little world.  | |||
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That is no discovery at all. I mentioned words to that effect in the Scam(onefunzr) thread when he Lied about wanting to run a Test. I've always wanted to do the comparison and until my Califoney buddy said he would be glad to do it, no one, NO ONE has had enough faith in their worthless pieces of trash to step up. It will get done and I expect the Haphazard SGSs to fail. What did your vast research indicate about Dr. Oehler deciding not to sell his M43 to mentally challenged folks. No need to site examples. ----- And I see you are still avoiding the question about "Pressure Variation" in the Haphazard SGSs. I certainly understand why you all want to avoid the fact that even when the Haphazard M43(Home) is set-up as well as the user can do it, the Variation - from Dr. Oehler - is so bad as to make the info totally worthless. Sure onefunz is mad. I would be too if I was so ignorant as to toss away $4k-$5k on something totally worthless, when a $25 0.0001" capable Micrometer will tell me first-hand "Data" about the actual Pressure. Must admit though, the more I think about it, the funnier it is. Especially since he was told the same thing before he totally wasted his money. ----- Hey Tnekkcc, Your suggestion for us to add the "disclaimer" for the Haphazard SGS users makes sense to me. But, I doubt they understand it anyhow. Pitiful to see people go through school and come out - dumb as a box of rocks. | |||
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Reading your last post brings back memories of ol' Tricky Dick Nixon staring straight into the camera and proclaiming, "I AM NOT A CROOK!" He couldn't fool the American public and so too Hotcore can't pull the wool over AR member's eyes either. You sir are a bald-faced lying troll. And you cannot deny it. Time to fess up. Sunday mornings are always a good time to repent. Ever notice how it's always about the money with HC?  Regards the CHE vs M43 testing: I completed my part. But mailing brass cases back and forth across country takes time. The results will be posted forthwith. | |||
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I think that getting a .001" .002" or .003" extractor groove expansion in a strong rifle is not exceeding a safe maximum for the rifle or shooter. It is exceeding long brass life. One then uses that information to reduce the load by a safety margin for long brass life. The safety margin for brass long life is not the same as the safety margin for the case head integrity, and thus the safety margin rifle and shooter. If you really want to calibrate your strain gauge set up more accurately, work up until the extractor groove expands, reduce the safety margin, and take a pressure reading. But what good is the strain gauge? You already have the correct max load. Denton Bramwell is an engineer, and he can't get it either. Fear stops the thought. What does it all mean? If you added trainer wheels to your bike, it does not diminish the advantages for others of your previous configuration without trainer wheels. | |||
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The M43 didn't put anything out of business. It is no longer available from Oehler. Why not buy your own blade mike and learn to use it? Your meter tells you nothing about the brass. The rest of us get by without it just fine. | |||
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HC, are you saying that the case groove diameter will expand with a low-pressure first firing (say one used for fire-forming a case)? The case groove is essentially not supported by the chamber and hardly at all with the extractor and/or bolt-face. The case groove lies outside the chamber. Please explain. Regards, AIU | |||
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tnekkcc I think that getting a .001" .002" or .003" extractor groove expansion in a strong rifle is not exceeding a safe maximum for the rifle or shooter. It is exceeding long brass life. One then uses that information to reduce the load by a safety margin for long brass life. I am not saying, nor have I said that is not the case. What I have said continuously and will continue to say is that loading until something blows (peirced primer, primer pocket of the firearm is not the safe and smart way to get there. Those re your way, not mine nore the vast majority of handloaders nor the industry. If you really want to calibrate your strain gauge set up more accurately, work up until the extractor groove expands, reduce the safety margin, and take a pressure reading. But what good is the strain gauge? You already have the correct max load. So now it is extractor groove expansion and not CHE. I have done both in conjunction with the use of the M43 and neither of them are as consistent nor anywhere near as reliable. The only thing it does do is tell me at what pressure the expansion of the case in the groove or at the case head expands. More often than not that measure of expansion, when it occurs, is far above the psi at what I wish to use or subject my firearms to. It is also most often far above the excepted "norm" for high pressure modern cartridge (65,000 psi) and leaves little to no margin for error. Thanks but no thanks. Denton Bramwell is an engineer, and he can't get it either. Fear stops the thought. Fear has nothing to do with it. I do push the envelope with several cartridges in bolt actions. However the difference between you and I is I use common sense and adhere to some semblence of safety. Telling other to load until the primer is pierced or the primer is blown and then back off is not safe and is very irresponsible, especially for an engineer as you call yourself. Larry Gibson | |||
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SR 4759 I use the blade micrometer in comparison with the M43. In case you've failed to notice I've posted examples of the failure of CHE to give any indication of high pressures. Not only I have found that but almost everyone who has pressure messuring equipment available has found the same thing. CHE is not a reliable indicator of high pressure. Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry, would you be willing to share with us some of your data correlating CGE with PSI as measured on the M43 setup? I'd be most interested and appreciative. Regards, AIU | |||
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6mmBR is worked up until the primer has trouble and then backed off a safety margin. That is how it is done. I have two 6mmBR rifles I have chambered with different max loads, because they have different firing pin / firing pin hole fits. I will chamber a third in the next 9 months, and it will have a third max load. In terms of psi predicted by Quickload, loads might look something like this: 270 SAAMI max 65,000 psi, max load for long brass life in a strong rifle with handloader work up 65,000 psi 7x57 SAAMI max 46,000 psi, max load for long brass life in a strong rifle with handloader work up 65,000 psi 30-06 SAAMI max 60,000 psi, max load for long brass life in a strong rifle with handloader work up 65,000 psi 222 SAAMI max 50,000 psi, max load for long brass life in a strong rifle with handloader work up 72,000 psi 223 SAAMI max 55,000 psi, max load for long brass life in a strong rifle with handloader work up 72,000 psi 6mmBR SAAMI [not registered], max load for no primer piercing in a strong rifle with handloader work up 80,000 psi 30mmBR SAAMI [not registered], max load for no primer piercing in a strong rifle with handloader work up 80,000 psi What does it all mean? Pressure does not matter, the effects of pressure matter. Measure the effects of pressure that are the limiting factor. All else is silly. | |||
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Apparently the thread is going to throw Bartsche and a few others into Cardiac Arrest. Someone is apparently "forcing" a good number of folks to read the thread. And I see the questions I asked Bobby, are either too difficult for him or he didn't like the answers he would have to give, so he has whimped out. I'll PM you about what you asked. If anyone else has any questions about the thread that I can help you with, or want to know why Bobby has refused to answer very simple questions, just send me a PM. Best of luck to all you folks who have been "forced" to read this instead of reading about putting a roll of Paper Towels in your tumbling media. | |||
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It was really very simple. 1. You could not master the use of a micrometer. 2. You could not find good deal a blade mike at a pawn shop. #1 is just a phony excuse. What is the real reason you chose not to use a micrometer? #2 Makes no sense. You had the money to piss away on the M43 and countless rifles. Why not a blade mike even if you have to buy a new one? After seeing your second post I realized you already had made up your mind and that you had an agenda. I think the entire process would be much better if you bought your own mike and learned to make your own measurements. Then you could avoid wasting someone else's time on your agenda. In the process what ever you learned or didn't learn could not be blamed on anyone else. You could publish you results and the rest of us could accept or reject based on merit. If you chose to run a bad experiment it is all yours to defend..... Here is the text of your second post >>>>SR4759, you've got the job. (PM me you name and address) BUT, the way I envision this exercise, you not only need to accurately measure the cases, but interrupt the results. That is, the .223 Remington has a SAAMI Maximum pressure limit of 55K psi. If the difference in your precise, never fail, can't be equaled measurement before firing, and then after firing was, say, .0005" would you determine that to be normal, MAX, or dangerous pressure (psia)? I will say this once again, "No, I have not\cannot try this experiment because I never found a $25 pawn shop thin blade micrometer that was .0001" capable. I invested in a strain gauge device...when it reads 55K psi (M43), I know that's max and I quit adding powder or even shoot in a much higher ambient temperature. But this is not so much about the strain gauge's operation as it is satisfying my curiosity about the average reloader performing this CHE protocol and coming out with useful information. Just measuring and writing down a 4 decimal-to-the-right-of-zero number isn't telling you anything until you can afix a nominal pressure value to your result. I got frustrated with the tedious measuring of a belted case using a flat anvil mic. CHE, and by extension, PRE are just not my forte. So SR4759, you tell me how we should set up this experiment so you have the best chance of being correct? Hotcore, do you have an issue with me proposing to fire a factory spec .223 Remington cartridge in a 40 degree improved chamber? Are you saying the case head swelling would be somehow compromised from accurate measurement? That your mechanical handtool or my strain gauge would not record the actual pressure generated by the burning gunpowder? I have 5 Federal Premium #P223E 55gr Sierra Gameking BTHP factory loads. Good enough to get a baseline? I assure everyone, this is no game or joke or fantasy. I DO NOT intend to load squib loads. This is not some kind of troll GOTCHA! Lets see how easy it is, by using CHE, to determine when the 55K psi limit is reached. It's that simple.<<<< It really was a troll GOTCHA.... You have a toy to play with and you don't understand the properties of brass. Then you made this post to prove it. >>>>If not specific pressure than generalized pressure. After all, how are we to make comparisons? My system yields data in units of pounds of pressure per square inch...which, I believe, is a universal unit of measure. Isn't there some sort of tarage table that equates case head swelling with pressure? How can we pursue this experiment if CHE doesn't produce a quantifiable unit of measure?<<<< If you had any knowledge of mechanics you would not have asked such a basic question. Everyone but you knows there is no tarage table. If there was there would be no reason for your proposed experiment. After you got a couple other guys involved in the design of the experiment it was apparent that your experiment could live without wasting my time. | |||
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Non linear with an offset and out of control variables. Sounds like a table of miles per hour versus stopping distance, while capriciously changing vehicles in each test. | |||
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Dude, you don't seem to be paying attention. Let me explain. Picture the scales of justice. On one pan is Ken Waters, on the other is John Barsness, Dr. Ken Oehler, Rick Jamison, Dean Grennell, Jon Sundra, Charles Petty, Jim Carmichael, Layne Simpson, Randy Brooks, and finally Ed Matunas. The overwhelming majority of ballistic experts sing the praises of the M43. It came down to who to believe. I chose to side with the latter group and bought Oehler's M43 to go along with the M35 I already owned. I don't feel I 'pissed away' my money. To the contrary, I felt it was money well spent. I hardly shoot any rounds downrange without collecting the data using Ken Oehler's fine products. I was doubly pleased that I had "got while the getting was good" when I read that Oehler Research was discontinuing all but their industrial equipment. SR4759, what kind of buttinski are you, telling me how I should spend my money? Are you my mother??? If all you can afford is a .0001" capable mic, tough shit. If you can only afford 1 gun, tough shit. If you sit at the local watering hole swilling beer 7 days a week and can't afford M43's, thingys and a gun for every occasion, tough shit. More and more, your posts reek of jealousy. Why else would an otherwise reasonable man make such green-eyed posts? Unless he was also liquored up a might. I gave you your chance to make suggestions. You answered by being a quitter. You seem to think I'm some sort of magician. And will pull a rabbit out of my hat and make you look the fool. That's not what the CHE vs M43 test is all about at all. If measuring CHE via your mic is the greatest yada, yada, yada, you'll come out the winner. Perhaps both will predict the same pressure...a mexican standoff with no clear winner. Or outcome #3...the average reloading guy who uses a .0001" capable mic only once in a blue moon has the same trouble as me measuring such infinitesimally small dimensions consistently. But only one brave soul out of all the AR members stepped up to the plate. And I thank him. I didn't coerce him in any way except to ask him to post his results first. My time stamped M43 results from last Thursday are waiting. No hocus-pocus. No abracadabra. Just a head to head blind test. What could be more simple or fair? Why you're bringing this shit up on Hotcore's phony fabricated info thread is a breach of internet etiquette. And just being an ass. Don't clog up HC's thread. Post your replies on my thread where it belongs. Unless you're too shit-faced to know the difference? | |||
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Maybe your M43 is not your problem. | |||
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A terrible shame that this thread has deteriorated, I was enjoying the science aspect very much. FWIW I think that measuring the effects of pressure, rather than pressure is the sensible approach. Pressure is a measure of the ability of the gases to do work in this context, it is the work it is doing that we are interested in, not almost abstract pressure knowledge. The two main instances of work we are interested in is velocity, measured directly with a chronograph, and work performed on the case, also measure directly, because we interested in safe case life. I would not go too far above book published maximums though, I'm not experienced enough to know what i'm doing, but case measurement methods seem a logical way of working out whether a given load is so hot as to compromise the longevity of the brass. From what I have seen and read, measurable displacement occurs before rupture of primers, guns blowing up during the load work up process. Regards, GH | |||
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Only those, like you, who don't own an M43 are having problems with it. That's the only problem. | |||
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AIU Most all of my data i've used as examples has been with CHE. I can set up a test easy enough to compare CGE data with actual pressure data fron the M43 of the same load used to obtainthe CGE. I am away from home so itwon't happen until next month. Okay? I find HCs criticism of "pressure variance" to be exceedingly humorous. First of all he goes on and and on, etc ad nauseum about "calibration ammunition" (non exhistant as it is actually "reference ammunition") and how it is necessary to "calibrate" a pressure system. In reality every pressure testing setup in exhistance will give a "pressure variation" using the same ammuntion. Usin "reference ammuntion" simply gives the ballistician a measure of the "variance" of the pressure test equipment used has. Yest the pressure will vary be tween test rifles just as velocity will vary as will CHE (if there is any). "Pressure Variance" is simple another red herring tap dance thrown out by HC. The fact still remains that CHE remains an unreliable indicator of maximum safe pressure regardless of the type of firearm used. Larry Gibson | |||
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Larry Gibson wrote: "I find HCs criticism of "pressure variance" to be exceedingly humorous." We all do...well, except for a couple posters who kneel at his throne. I even passed this thread along to an acquaintence in the industry. Much of his daily drudgery involves bullets, brass and pressure testing. He was already aware of the thread and mentioned that HC's self-prophetic "teachings" serve to humor many people on a daily basis. Although he is actually a member here, I doubt he will post because, in his words, "it would just fuel the fire of the few who don't know any better." To that I say "Amen." Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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