Finally got some winter here in the mountains of Colorado and with time on my hands...
Measured only 1 case each, so not that much time

They might have improved.

But I have made a promise to never buy Bertram again.

Had it in some large bore calibers and it was just plain awful.

So, am I correct in thinking that in either case, only the shoulder will be contacted in a FLS made to CIP specs?
I suppose a more valuable measurement will be the capacity after fireforming.(?)

What does measuring a case mean??

Seems a bit of an odd result based on the case measurements in mm, case weight and water capacity.
External dimensions of both cases are within a few decimal points of each other yet there is an 18.3 grain difference in case weight, the Hornady case being heaviest. That normally indicates less internal capacity in a case as thicker case walls make up the extra weight and reduce internal capacity, the external dimensions being to, or close to, standard.

Here we see the heavier Hornady case (by inference a lesser capacity case) holding slightly more water than the 18.3grn lighter Bertram case. Sort of reverse situation to what you would expect to see?

Off course this could be explained by some difference in density of the brass used by the two manufacturers?

Eagle,
more likely the hornady is on spec, and the bertam thin..

Huvius
If you assume unsized factory brass
is at least min. and calc. CC for
the CIP case min. and then assume
fired case is the CIP chamber max.,
The difference is only 1 gn!
As Jeffe pointed out, the BB brass is thinner
then the Hornady.

Bertram cases I have measured are just plain awful.

The wall thickness of the cases were different on on the same case.

I am not quite sure what you are interested in, but I have used Hornady brass in .17 Hornet, 7x64, 9.2x62, .375 Ruger, and .458 Lott. The Hornady brass seems to be of good quality and lasts many reloads. Hope this helps.

I asked a friend who had Bertram brass to check some of his.

He said he had non.

He threw them all away!

That tells you how good they were.

If other brass is available, I would take it but
Bertram is the only game in town for the 404J now.
I have even contacted Johannsen in Germany
(they took over Hornber brass business when he retired)
And her initial reply is they would ship brass to the US.
Will see how that goes.
Thanks

Expand RUM brass?

Measurements should be taken on fired brass, not sure if this is the case with the measurements the OP has given.
The lighter case will have more capacity as the outside dimensions of both cases will remain the same after firing and conforming to the chamber while the inside dimensions are different due to differences in case wall and or base thicknesses.

At the moment with the case weights and water capacity weight measurements the OP has provided, the lighter Bertram case is showing LESS capacity whereas it should have GREATER capacity by quite a few more grains of water. Something not adding up?

Bertram is made on outdated equipment Im told, I have used it and found it unsuitable and will not use it again.

However he does make some calibers that nobody else will make, and those are calibers I have no use for..

I have found some Bertram brass to be very good, in NE cartridges. Unfortunately it was crap in my 375 Flanged Mag double, but I managed to pick up some NOS Norma at a country gunshop for a reasonable price, and it has been excellent.

Maybe I had to anneal the Bertram before first loading, because after first firing it split necks etc. very annoying and very expensive.

In the 404J I really like Norma brass, but didn’t reload the Hornady from the few factory loads I shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Bertram is made on outdated equipment Im told, I have used it and found it unsuitable and will not use it again.

However he does make some calibers that nobody else will make, and those are calibers I have no use for..

I just came across this new brass for sale in the hunting and shooting section on our national auction site.

The 270 WSM brass looks to be way over annealed with heat migration back very close to the case heads.

The 300 PCR brass has had the annealing discolouring, if any, polished out so looks okay.

I recall reading an article on Bertram in a hunting magazine many years ago where the author visited the factory and wrote in fairly glowing terms of his visit. He seemed most impressed with the annealing process Bertram uses and had a few photos in the article of the annealing setup. I remember thinking it was pretty primitive for a factory setup and could not see how the brass would be evenly heated as there didn't seem to be any way to turn the cases in the fixed burner flames.

This 270 WSM brass doesn't look to good to me.

exercising the brain

Assuming the case is uniform thickness and the web, head are the same
hand calculations below.

The calculated vs measured case capacity difference between the 2 cases
is nearly the same and the calculated vs measured case shell weight difference
between the 2 cases is nearly the same as the measured case weight
difference.

The reason for this is the brass density is about 10x larger than water,
so the case weight difference due to the shell thickness difference
shows a large change but the difference in shell thickness only changes
the inner case diameter slightly, i.e. a big number minus a small number

H2O density 252.9 gn/in^3
brass density 2163.0 gn/in^3

Hornady case Bertram case
case neck thickness (in) 0.015 0.012
volume of inner case (in^3) 0.5280 0.5336
volume of case shell (in^3) 0.0499 0.0398
weight of case H2O capacity (gn) 133.5 134.9
weight of case shell (gn) 108.0 86.2
measured case weight (gn) 287.7 269.4
measured case capacity (gn) 115.4 114.7

Hornady and Norma still making 404J brass?

Do any of you use a water wetter when determining case capacity this way so you don't get any air bubbles attached to the inner walls of the case?
We used it in our water cooled racing motorcycles - just a thought...

I checked, Hornady has the 404J in the 2022 cat. Email into Norma. Will see

Alcohol helps.

Checking the capacity of cases in this caliber is totally pointless!

Buy quality brass.

Avoid junk, which Bertram is.

quote:

Originally posted by steve505:
I checked, Hornady has the 404J in the 2022 cat. Email into Norma. Will see

Alcohol helps.

Steve,
Hornady, and Norma still make 404 brass, now finding it is another story. When and if you do, buy all you can get your hands on. Maybe a WTB ad here on AR might do the trick, someone may be willing to cough up a bit of their stash. I've had one experience with Bertram brass and it was not favorable, never again with that brand.
John

Years ago I found drums - yes, cardboard drums - full of Norma 404 brass.

I bought all I could find.

Glad I did, as I have several wildcats on the 404 case as well as rifles for it.

guys, thanks for the feedback.
Norma responded do not know when it will be back in production. Hornady says has been discontinued this year
If anyone has a few to spare, please let me know. thanks.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by jpl:
Expand RUM brass?

Isn't RUM brass almost the same thing? I saw 375RUM on the shelf the last time I was at the LGS.

quote:

Originally posted by steve505:
guys, thanks for the feedback.
Norma responded do not know when it will be back in production. Hornady says has been discontinued this year
If anyone has a few to spare, please let me know. thanks.
Steve

Unfortunately we live too far apart and it's pretty impossible to trade reloading stuff internationally now.

I have a few extra new RWS and Hornady cases I could have spared and in the last month there has been some 404J cases and bullets come up for sale on our TradeMe auction site. If I had the spare cash I would have bought the lot however I'm in the process of selling my Mauser 404 now so don't really want to spend more for reloading components as tempting as it is. The listings closed without selling but I do know the seller as I have bought cases and bullets from him previously. He seems to acquire part boxes of bullets and cases, odd used NE cartridge dies etc.

The bullets were reasonable priced however the cases are quite expensive even though discounted on normal retail.

50 x new Norma 404 brass in a Case Guard box @ NZ$270
20 x RWS V Mantel 401gr bullets.
23 x Peregrine Premium 400gr bullets.
23 x Peregrine Premium 350gr bullets.
48 x Barnes Banded Solid 400gr bullets.
16 x CEB Safari Raptor 325gr bullets.
CBE bullet mold for cast 370gr bullets.