I'm new to reloading. I have began searching for a good recipe for my varmint bolt rifle. I've tried various powder & bullet combinations. I began to wonder??

Help me understand this.......

No matter what the recipe is. If you shoot two IDENTICLE rounds in the same rifle held exactly in the same position etc. Won't they hit the same hole in the target? I realize no two rounds are identicle. This is just hypotheticle.

wb

Yes, hypothetically, all the bullets will go through the same hole. Way back in 1868 a young lad named Franklin W. Mann wondered why real life did not imitate the hypothetical and he set out on a lifetime study to find out why. He spent the rest of his life looking for the answer and published most of his findings in a book in 1909. Today's Benchrest rifles come very close to that elusive perfect group but no one has done it yet. Probably never will either.

JMHO

Ray

Hey Ray,

I wonder if any one has "computer modeled" the same scenario taking place in a zero gravity, vacuum environment. I'm guessing that mechanical tolerances would be the limiting factor in obtaining the "one hole" holy grail .

I'm sure someone has modeled it. Isn't that called Rocket Science?

And maybe it would work. All we need is a shooting bench on a distant planet to test it.

Ray

great now all you'd have to do is find exactlt identical pieces of powder,exact mix of primer.
exact seating depth and primer pocket.
with exactly the same sized hole.
and exactly the same amount of fouling in the bore.
you see where this is going.
it ain't gonna happen.

First, you have to be pretty damn good shooter to deliver the exact same shot each time. If you could get exact loads put together, you still have shooting conditions which are likely never identical from shot to shot.

Dr. Mann's book is a classic, BTW.

THE BULLET'S FLIGHT FROM POWDER TO TARGET.

He would probably be astounded at some of the groups we shoot today.

Ray

I've seen 2 3 5 15 shots go nearly in the same exact hole .

NEARLY is like horse shoes and handgrenades ALMOST !!.

Why it's nearly impossible regardless of machine rest test barrel or finest rifle built

Vacuum environment or not . The 5% error factor is beyond your control !.

2% primer 3% powder at a minimum = 5% and that folks is the facts !!!.

quote:

Way back in 1868 a young lad named Franklin W. Mann wondered why real life did not imitate the hypothetical and he set out on a lifetime study to find out why.

He must have had a lot of time on his hands...


Here's a five-shot group from 100 yards I shot on Sunday. It was a bit windy, I was a bit rusty and I have never had the patience to wait until all is just right to shoot. The large circle is 1-1/8" diameter; the smaller one is 19/32". Five-shot (CBO) group is .817"; three-shot (OMB) group is .285". Not great but then, I ain't no David Tubb...



175-grain Sierra MatchKing HPBT; common Winchester 300WSM brass; common CCI Large Rifle Magnum primers; 63.5 grains H4831SC; common RCBS Group A dies and a Rockchucker press.

quote:

Originally posted by wb:
Help me understand this.......

VARIATION --- including that of the person holding the gun. Even if the rounds are identical, they won't lie in the chamber the same.

quote:

Originally posted by wb:
...No matter what the recipe is. ...

Hey wb, You have about 10 chances in 360 that "any" randomly selected Load will have a chance of being consistently accurate. The other 350 chances are when the Muzzle is not at an Apogee or Perigee in the Barrel's Harmonic Cycle.

Then when consideration is given to some rifles just won't shoot a specific Weight of Bullet, or a Style of Bullet, or a type of Powder, or Primer, etc., it becomes clear that having Consistent Accuracy is extremely tough to achieve.

Stacking Bullets in the same hole is possible but highly improbable and just getting them all close together takes a lot of continuous work.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for all the replies.......

If this is true, It shouldn't matter what the load is.

As long as each particular load is identicle and the world is perfect my rifle will group any load variation the same. (if everything is perfect and identicle)

Right?

So, why do rifles like certain loads better?
Why do we have to create a special recipe for our particular rifle?

Don't get me wrong, I realize that we do and I've already witnessed plenty of variations in grouping with different loads.

I'm just not sure I understand completely why.......

Why does my rifle shoot smaller groups with 24.5 gr. than it does with 25 gr. of the same powder, same primer, same shell?

Thanks for any help.....

a lot of that has to do with ignition characteristics.
and barell sinewaves even though a bbl is moving it also has harmonics going up and down it.
it has to do with the bullet leaving the bbl at an optimum point during all this you could just cut a quarter inch off the bbl and change all this too.

quote:

sinewaves... harmonics

I got one of these "snubbers" that you slide over the end of the barrel and adjust its position to dampen those harmonics. It's a sorbothane donut put out by Limbsaver, I think. Price is about fifteen bucks. I wasn't able to determine if it works or not because my barrel is too fat for the hole in it...

I used one of the donuts on a 300 wsm and it tightened up the shot to shot groups by 1/2.Good Luck

think of it like water rings in a bathtub the waves hit the sides and go back in they then cross over each other however there are some calm spots in between the waves.
this is where you want your bullet to exit the bbl.
at the same spot in the calm.
thats why sometimes a load of say 56. works so much better than one of 57 and you can find it coming around to accurate again at 57.5

quote:

Originally posted by wb:
...I'm just not sure I understand completely why....

Hey WB, You are getting some good responses about Sine Waves and Water Ripples, but I've found it easier for people to mentally visualize the Muzzle moving in the shape of an elongated figure " 8 ". If it helps you understand, draw one thin and tall " 8 " on a sheet of paper.

The trick is to get the timing of the Bullet so it Exits the Muzzle when it is either at the top(Apogee) or bottom(Perigee). The reason you want the Exit then is because the Muzzle slows almost to a Stop, reverses direction and begins accelerating toward the other end. The Muzzle is moving the fastest in the middle of the " 8 " which means any minor variation in the Load or variation in the Bore Condition will be more noticable at this point in time.

The barrel goes through all kinds of Stress conditions.
1. It is easy to visualize the barrel moving up in Recoil.
2. The barrel has a Vibrational Stress similar to a Tuning Fork.
3. The barrel gets twisted back and forth by the Stress of making the Bullet Spin.
4. The Barrel is subjected to "two separate" Elongation and Contraction factors due to the Bullet and another by the Pressure acting on the inside of the Barrel.
5. etc.

So, the trick is to locate a Load which has the Bullet leaving the Muzzle as close as possible to the exact same point on the Harmonic Node. And that occurs at the top and bottom of the Node, because it is moving the least amount at those two points.

The way to locate these points the "quickest" is to use the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method.

However, some Barrels just won't shoot some Bullets and Powders well, regardless how much we want them to. Yet, the exact next rifle off the production line might shoot them great. You just never know until you try the Loads.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks alot fellas.......

Apparently you guys have been doing this for a long time to develope such a knowledge. I really appreciate all the info. Not that I completely understand all of it but, I have an idea and read more & more on the subject all the time.

I started with 55gr FMJ Hornady , 23.5 gn. AA2230 , CCI 400 and went up to 24gn, 24.5gn & 25gn shot 3 rounds per. Chose the round with the smallest groupings.

Did the same thing with 40gr. V-max bullets.

Once I decide on the round I like, I'll dial in my scope.

Am I on the right track?

For a beginner,,,, is the only other thing I can do right now to use a Hornady OAL guage to seat specifically for my chamber?

Also,,, I understand that OAL stands for Overall Length. Does C.O.A.L stand for Cartridge Overall Length?

I'm reading from a Sierra guide and Maximum OAL length for .223 Rem is 2.260" from what I understand this is a standard so that the round will fit properly in magazines and chamber properly in most all guns.

For Sierra 80gr. the C.O.A.L is 2.550".

Here's may questions: Is this 2.550" length required so the bullet will seat for enough in the shell? If so, then this round won't work in just any gun....right?

I've loaded some hornady 40gr. v-max and I beleive the c.o.a.l listed in the guide is 2.00". (I don't have guide with me) is this 2.00" maximum or what? I almost had trouble seating that deep. What if my OAL guage called for a longer OAL?

Thanks again fellas.....

quote:

Originally posted by wb:
Thanks alot fellas.......

Apparently you guys have been doing this for a long time to develope such a knowledge. I really appreciate all the info. Not that I completely understand all of it but, I have an idea and read more & more on the subject all the time.

I started with 55gr FMJ Hornady , 23.5 gn. AA2230 , CCI 400 and went up to 24gn, 24.5gn & 25gn shot 3 rounds per. Chose the round with the smallest groupings.

Did the same thing with 40gr. V-max bullets.

Once I decide on the round I like, I'll dial in my scope.

Am I on the right track?

Hey wb, That is a good start. If you are using a 223Rem size Case, you might want to consider having a bit less "spread" between Test Groups. There is no Rule that says a person must use 0.Xgr between Loads, but I normally use a difference of 0.2<->0.3gr on 223Rem size Cases, 0.3<->0.4gr on 308Win size Cases and 0.5gr on 30-06 and Belted Magnum size Cases for my Test Loads.

quote:

For a beginner,,,, is the only other thing I can do right now to use a Hornady OAL guage to seat specifically for my chamber?

I'm not a fan of these "Thingys", but a lot of folks are. You can always use a Cleaning Rod and then convert the OCL to ODL. I find it much simpler to do and significantly more accurate that using a "Thingy".

quote:

Also,,, I understand that OAL stands for Overall Length. Does C.O.A.L stand for Cartridge Overall Length?

Yes.

quote:

I'm reading from a Sierra guide and Maximum OAL length for .223 Rem is 2.260" from what I understand this is a standard so that the round will fit properly in magazines and chamber properly in most all guns.

For Sierra 80gr. the C.O.A.L is 2.550".

Here's may questions: Is this 2.550" length required so the bullet will seat for enough in the shell? If so, then this round won't work in just any gun....right?

Sierra is simply telling you what Seating Depth they used. You may be able to use a different Seating Depth in your rifle, or you might do fine with what they used.

However, depending on the Twist Rate of your barrel, the 80gr Bullets might not Stabilize. You can go to the top of the page and do a "Find" on 80gr Bullets, heavy 22cal Bullets, 223Rem Twist, etc. and find plenty of info. Same on the Small Caliber Board. Or start a new thread on it.

quote:

I've loaded some hornady 40gr. v-max and I beleive the c.o.a.l listed in the guide is 2.00". (I don't have guide with me) is this 2.00" maximum or what? I almost had trouble seating that deep. What if my OAL guage called for a longer OAL? ...

The above Link will help you with this.

It sounds like you could use a buddy near you who already Reloads. That way he could look over your shoulder as you are beginning to learn and keep you from repeating simple mistakes. There are lots of ways to do all this stuff and just because I use one Method, it does not mean everyone should.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks alot Hot Core........

You are right.

I'm learning on my on with books and forums like this.

Even though I might read something, I still like to confirm my understanding of it with someone experienced.

I've already wasted quite a few rounds due to mistakes.

*Squashed shoulders - I think I was overcrimping (Hornady die seemed to be a little complicated??)

*Incomplete full-length sizing - Ram wasn't pushing brass all the way into die, AR-15 didn't like'em my bolt gun didn't either. (Hornady die seemed to be a little complicated??)

*Zip spindle/expander getting stuck & pulling through - I guess the neck wasn't clean enough or wasn't expanded enough during resizing and when I pulled brass back out the expander hung up in brass and zzzziiiip the spindle pulled through (i had it pretty tight)

*Finally stuck brass in die - in a hurry to solve full length sizing problem with several shells & forgot to re-lube. Pulled the rim right off the case. I still havent gotten around to borrowing a easy out yet.

I bought a Redding die and like it better......

I'll go back and try some in between powder charges and see what happens with grouping.

I've invested quite alot of $$ in reloading.
I went out soon after to try some of my newly loaded rounds on targets at 100yds.
I was acheiving descent groups of around 1/2" - 3/4" or so. I then wanted to compare factory rounds. I placed two bullets in the same hole with a cheap factory UMC Rem. .223 55gr. FMJ.

You can imagine how I felt.....

I know it was just one of those things but still.

The comment on the Sierra 80gr. was just an example I was using so I would understand seating requirements a little better. My rifle is only a 12 twist so I'm not trying to use those. I was told max would be about 62-65gr. or they would began to tumble.

Was it a mistake to by 10-Lbs. of AA2230 for starters? It's what was suggested for .223.

Thanks,

quote:

Was it a mistake to by 10-Lbs. of AA2230 for starters? It's what was suggested for .223.

Hey wb, I've never used that Powder, so I'm the wrong person to comment on it.

We all made/make small Reloading mistakes. Being in a Hurry is never a good idea when it comes to Reloading. Nor having anyone distracting you. So don't get down on yourself about making a mistake - learn from it.

I used to try and teach 1-2 guys I'd meet at the Range each year. Reloading is as Safe as you make it. Stick with Loads shown in Manuals as your Starting Points and check a couple of Manuals before you start a new Load. Mis-prints do occur.

If you send the Die to the Manufacturer, they will remove the Case for you and there is no chance at all that they will hurt the Die. There are also a lot of excellent suggestions on this Board about removing the Case, that can be found with the "Find" function. Either a lot of very ingenious folks - or - a lot of folks who also stuck Cases. It is real nice to have two sets of Dies for the same Cartridge.

Best of luck to you.

with regard to your question about buying 10 lbs of powder before having developed a load for it. I don't buy more than a pound of powder till I know it is "the" powder for a particular bullet in a particular rifle.

And unless I'm going to be using it as a match load, I don't buy more than a couple of pounds even then because 2 lbs will produce enough hunting ammo for several years for anything but prarie dogs. I shoot maybe 20 - 25 ground hogs a year, for example. At 28g of AA2460 per cartridge (40g Nosler BT in my .223Rem) I get 250 rounds per pound of powder - a pound is 7,000 grains of powder. Divide your powder charge into 7000 and you get the number of rounds per pound of powder.

Even at 34.0g per load, which works for the 55g V-Max in my .22-250, I get 205 rounds per pound.

With regard to achieving caliber hole group size:

It has been done. There was once upon a time a private and rather exclusive indoor shooting venue known as "The Houston Wearhouse" where a rather large number of "zero" groups were fired. It wasn't a "real" shooting range. It was just an aisle in a big wearhouse where the owner and a few other folks got to shoot in what would be called perfect conditions. There is a write up on it on the WEB someplace but I don't have the URL handy and didn't have any luck quickly searching for it. It really existed, and they really fired some caliber hole size groups there.

Fitch

aa 2230 is right near h-322 just in ball form not stick ,it will work fine.
you are learning how i did ,except we didn't have no puters back then.
you don'yt need an easy out you need a drill bit and tap a bolt that matches the tap and a socket. that goes over the head of the case and mates up to the die body.
and a washer that goes in between the bolt head and the square in the socket.
think of your gun as a wildcat and give it what will work in it , set your own basis [like everyround must be loaded from the magazine]
and 223's really don't need a crimp unless you are using an ar.

"Secrets of the Houston Warehouse"

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html

Chances are you did the right thing when you bought that powder. Generally speaking, it works very well in the .223Rem/5.56NATO. Just take a guess how AA-2230 got its name....!

I discussed that very question at one of the S.H.O.T. shows with the then-President of AA, and he said it was the proprietary name they assigned to the powder when they first bought it as surplus and began distributing it; it was a powder commonly in military use to load the 5.56 NATO, so it was a "fitting" civilian name for powder to be primarily marketed to civilians.

The trick of is finding the right powder charge weight/volume and the right bullets & primers to make it shoot its best in your rifle. That may take some time and effort, but is one of the reasons so many of us enjoy handloading. Once you get that load figgered out, you'll be happy you have that much of the same lot of powder.

Looking for the "best" load for your rifle is kind of like travelling by either car or rail from Calgary through Banff & Roger's Pass to Vancouver, B.C. Sure, Vancouver is a very nice destination, but the trip can be as enjoyable as the city itself.

AA2230 is a good powder for the .223. I bought 10# of it (long story) only to find it was not THE best powder for MY factory match.223. But it is close enough that it's what I use for varmints and bench practice.

Hey wb,

Most of the replies you have received here are right on the money. Hot Core answers your question exactly.

Trying to find an accurate load for a rifle is sometimes very frustrating; there are so many factors it will drive you crazy. Sometimes you may just have to settle. Your rifle may not be capable of anything better no matter which combination of bullet, powder, primer you try.

I believe the most important component is the bullet. Try quite a few until you feel you've reached the end of the line. I have a buddy in the Sherriff's dept. He and one of his co-workers have the exact same Remington .308 issued to them by the dept. The serial numbers are consecutive. The bullet that each of them shoot the best is not the same.

To understand better why rifles don't shoot bullets in the same hole every time check out Varmint Al's Barrel Harmonic Movies. While you are on his site, do some surfing around. The information contained there is indispensable and mostly over my head.