For most of my life it's been 3 shot groups and for hunting (other than high volume varmint), I believe that all that is necessary in a hunting gun. After all, it's the first shot that really counts.

That said, now that I'm shooting small calibers, mostly at the range, it's been suggested that statistically more than 3 shots are necessary to judge the rifle/load. I've heard of 5 shots and recently that 7 shots will most efficiently reveal the accuracy of the load. Comments please.

MIke, I have heard the "3 shots is all you need for hunting" argument before. I do not believe that that argument is relevant. Why shoot a group at all? The answer is that you want to find out the probability (likehood) that the next round will be close to the first. This is a statistical question which is answered by sampling. The size of the sample allows you to opine on the entire population, with a certain confidence level. As I recollect, the NRA uses 5, 10 shot groups for it's testing of rifles. Having said all that, I use 3 shot groups for load development and then shoot 5 shot groups for the promising loads, AND THEN I CONFIRM with another 5 shot group. I have often been disappointed when my 5 shot group did not group even close to the 3 shot group, and when it did, I could not confirm it. So we shoot groups for different reasons, and it is not a function of how many shots it takes us to finish off game. Hope this makes sense!
Peter.

my best groups are all 1 shot ; )

I use 3shot for big game rifle. I like small groups but it's more important to have my first shot always be where I want it.

I always use 5 shot group minimum.

On my little guns (.222, .223, .22-250) that may get heavy use varminting, I like to throw out a 10 round group once in a while just to see what might happen when the barrel heats up

I use 5-shot groups and here's why...

If I am going to load up 100, 200, 300 or more rounds, I need to be comfortable that I am loading them with 'the' load. I have fired many, many 3-shot groups that looked great and then opened up on shots 4 and 5. That told me to keep tweaking the load and it has paid off for me over and over.

Maybe too much for some folks but I tend to do everything to excess.

It depends on what other information you have.

Typically, when sighting a gun, you may shoot "implied" groups that are several more than just three shots as you move the scope adjustments to fine-tune the impact point. If the shots are consistent as you walk your point of impact to the desired location, then perhaps a single "formal" three-shot group is sufficient.

With hunting rifles, I would rather have three three-shot groups (fired over a period of time) than a single 5- or 10-shot group fired at once. Obviously, barrel heating is a factor in this, but the three three-shot groups do a better job of mimicking the way a hunting rifle might typically be used.

When shooting heavy kickers, the human factor in shooting more shots for a group comes into play. It's just not practical for most shooters to shoot a 5-shot group off of the bench from a .375 H&H without some deterioration in your aim, hold, and release. Therefore, you may even get a better, rather than worse, assesment of a load potential from just a three-shot group with a gun that generates bruising recoil.

It is certainly more likely to have a statistical anomoly in a three-shot group than in a larger group. But it is still rather unlikely that chance will compensate for innaccuracy in your .300 Magnum and cause it to shoot a 5/8" three-shot group when the load you're shooting is really a 2.5" load.

On the other hand, target and varmit guns are a different breed from hunting rifles, both in caliber and usage, so I use 5-shot groups as a minimum for load evaluation with those.

All the "so called" 1/2" rifles out there are three shot groupers. Shoot enough and sooner or later one will be a .5 group!

I'd be willing to wager a weeks salary that only one in ten "so Called" .5 MOA hunting rifles could actually prove it at a range with a five shot group!

This means absolutely nothing!!!!.....for a hunting rifle a three shot group tells you just about all you need to know as long as you know that the actual groups you're shooting are not as good as the three shot group you just fired. In all probability the actual groups your rifle/ammo combo is capable of is roughly 1.5 times the three shot measurement.

I use five shot groups on my varmint rifles and three shots on big game rifles. Others are welcome to do anything they are comfortable with.

You'd be surprised how many rifles go deer hunting every year without firing a single sighting shot!

I shoot 5 round groups, 7 even beter to be shure.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
All the "so called" 1/2" rifles out there are three shot groupers.

. . . . or the best 2 out of 3, cause you don't have to count obvious flyers

Hmmmm- - Ok roger

I use 3 shot groups when working up loads and sighting in my hunting rifles.

Once I've got them where I want them and I just need to check the rifle I fire a 2 shot group.
The first shot to check POI and if the second shot is within 0.5 inch or so of the first I am ready to HUNT.

I do 5 shot groups. It isn't for any other reason that when I hand load my neat little plastic boxes that I put my cartridges have nice little rows of five. I load up each row with a different amount of grains of powder and go shoot. I shoot all five rounds before I move on to the next row.

Sometimes I even clean between each five round group. It will take me about 10 min to shoot each group and then I wait 10-15 min before I start on the next group. The cooler I keep my barrel the closer I'll be to actual hunting situations.

I believe that is was O'Connor that said, 'For a hunting rifle 5 one shot groups is what counts.'

yeah - thats what i meant - 1 shot groups kinda like vapodog got on that 32" walleye

quote:

like vapodog got on that 32" walleye

Actually that was a six shot day.....six walleyes 28" and over....the largest 32".

They came from Shoal Lake just west of Lake of the Woods.

i usally shoot 5 shot groups

2 3shot groups on 2 different targets, on two different days tells you if the rifle is sighted in, holds zero, and shoots to zero..

one can take ANY 1/2" rifle and shoot enough "shots" in a group and it will sooner or later shoot 200%...

Myself? is the rifle shooting EXACTLY where i thought it was? yes? then 1 shot is good enough.. if not, then 100 rounds sprayed on the paper dont mean a thing...

in other words, what are you trying to prove? that it shoots bughole 3 shot groups, or a hunting rifle puts bullets where you intend them

I shoot 5 shot groups when working up loads.

Except for with my 375, I only do 3 shot groups for that with the occasional 8 shot (2 magazines) groups.

Well ONE shot groups will always impress your buddies, as long as you don't tell them it was one shot! Tell em it was 3 or 5 shots!!!

that's how some guys do it....

The other good one is not knowing how to tell distances...

shoot a 25 yd group and think that it was done at 100!!!

I see guys do that at our range all the time!

Thanks for the input; appreciate the various opinions. Especially "what are you trying to prove?". When I was deer hunting I would get the rifle sighted in and then fire one shot at a target and then save it for the next range session. Do this 4 or 5 times and my "hunting group" was established (first shot, hold zero, etc.).

Again, thanks for the thoughtful input.

Statistically speaking, a 7 shot group is the minimum amount to get a valid idea of what to expect from that specific load combination. 10 would be better.

NRA shoots five, 5 shot groups in their rifle reviews.

I typically shoot a three shot group, occasionally shoot a 5 shot group just to see what happens, FWIW.

Eterry

Ideally one should only make one shot at a time and repeat this exercise over several days as often as possible. This is to simulate "hunting conditions". You don't go hunting with a warm or hot barrel, but a cold one.

Only a test over a prolonged period will give you an idea of the true accuracy potential of a gun/ammo combination.

I use three shot groups for Magnum rifles and 5 shot groups for standard rifles. I shoot 3000 plus rounds per year with all shapes and sizes from .22's up to 50 BMG. When I get a final load with a rifle I will fire one shot, put the target away, then repeat the one shot a couple of monthes later, and repeat the process for a year. I will then stack the targets on top of each other and the group is my cold barrel group for all temperature conditions I may encounter. It has worked for me from home to Colorado, to Alaska-Alberta-Africa. If you and your rifle have not achieved a group where all shots touch, you need to change rifles or shooters, or wait until a better performance day on your part, if you desire the best in accuracy. Hunting accuracy is not that precise, 1 MOA is good enough, and misses happen to the best, even under the best of conditions. Good shooting.

I use the standard method of grouping . # 3-5 shot groups .

Working a load I use # 3 . I start middle of the road for loads . Work up and down .5 grain at a time . See what that particular weapon likes hot or mild , Saves time and powder for me any way .

Once I find a load then I generally load # 15 rounds , shoot # 3 - 5 shot groups spaced 1 -1.5 minutes apart and average for that particular load . I do this in most of my weapons . Regardless of caliber . ( I want to know ).

Why ? , because I don't know any better !.In addition I don't have to load 200 300 rounds for " The Load "
How ever I do know where the point of impact is going to be with all my loads. On Target !.

I'm one of those exceptions to the rule I guess because I do average the groups and they are 5 shot groups . VapoDog ; Most of my weapons will produce .312 - .875 " on a regular group basis .

Some old beater war horses will not !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]like vapodog got on that 32" walleye

Actually that was a six shot day.....six walleyes 28" and over....the largest 32".


Nice group,VD. Makes more sense than most of this thread. roger

3-shot groups for "magnum" cartridges.

5-shot group for "standard" cartridges.

I use a 3 shot group on my Rifles with thin barrels.5 shot on standard Sporter weight and 10 on my Varmint and BR Rifles.# shot groups origanated because lite weight barrels get very hot fast ,and will almost never group good with more than 3.Anyone want to argue heat has no affect on accuracy with a small Dia. barrel????