We’re trying to locate a good load, with minimal vertical stringing at 600 meters that won’t beat the rifles to death.

The rifles being used are the M14SSR type
Brass is M118
Powder is Varget
Primers are WLR
Bullets are SMK 175

We’d like a chamber pressure of 50,000 psi
And a port pressure of 12,500 psi (plus or minus 1500 psi)

The bullet must stay supersonic to 800 meters

Thanking everyone in advance.

Gene

what caliber?

Contact the powder maker, but I believe Varget is an unsuitable powder for the M1A/M14 family rifles gas system, but then I stay with powders like W748, IMR 4064, IMR 4895.

Just consulted a Sierra manual (50 th anniversary edition) on pg 424 they list varget as follows:

Strt load 36.0 mv 2200
mid level 38.0 2300
MAX load 40.0 2400

Cartridge OAL 2.800

Both W 748 and IMR 4064 give loads that allow you to reach 2600 fps dependent on pressure sign and the particular rifle of course.

Also of note is that you must reduce charges by 10% when using Mil Spec brass, due to the heavier case construction.

M118 = 7.62X51 or .308

Varget has a burn rate and pressure curve almost identical to the military powders used in the M118 Match, M118NM and M118 Special Ball.

Is it possible to import tables into the format being used in this forum?

Go to http://www.m-14forum.com They have the info you need.

LEE440,

Although the m-14 forum does have load information, I realy want information on identical components.

As you know "similar" loads, cases, bullets and barrels don't produce the same numbers.

Thanks for the information anyway.

Gene

Hi Gene,

With Varget, start at 40.0 grains, and work up in .5 grain increments. Look at velocity over the chronograph and how far the brass flies out of the rifle.

For comparison, buy a box of Black Hills Match 175 grain. They use TAC powder from Western Powders (Ramshot).

The military uses RL-15 in the new M-118 LR cartridges.

Any of these powders will give you excellent results. TAC will feed the best through a Dillon powder measure. RL-15 is easy feeding. Varget requires a better powder measure than the stock Dillon unit.

Varget, RL-15 and TAC are all relatively temperature insensitive. You couldn't go wrong with any of those. I use Varget in my bolt rifles, and TAC in my M-1A.

Look on the AR15.COM website. Send a PM if you have any other questions.

lawndart

PS Welcome to AR

Welcome to ar..
iirc, milsurp ammo comes in "h335" and "blc2" and "h414/win760" speeds for nominal small arms.. wc-846,wc-844 , wc852 (two speeds known)

I guess that your varget ideas comes from wc-852-f, the faster lot.

You do know that blc2 is "the" standard for garands and m1a/m14, right?


If you don't have a chrony, go to http://www.shootingchrony.com/products_SCMMCM.htm

scroll down to the very bottom of the page, and get
Item # Products U.S$ CAN$
105 Reconditioned Model F-1 (Painted Red or Green) $ 49.95

as you will be shooting it, everyone does.

JC's loading point aint a bad place to start...

also, you do realize that the BULLET not the MV determines if the bullet is still supersonic, right?

jeffe

I have worked up to 44 grains of Varget in my AR10. This is with LC '85 Match cases. Tracks the BDC on my Leupy M3 knobs (M118LR) perfectly to 600 yards.

Doug9,

Both the AR-10T and SR-25 are great rifles.

I've actually seen a hand fitted SR-25 shoot 0.125 MOA with hand loads.

Honest to God!!! He did it twice because I couldn't believe what I was seeing the first time.

Unfortunately tho', we're located in California. Just to avoid any problems we use the M14SSR type rifle. This rifle is a short stroke. Yours uses a small gas tube that allows the barrel to flex like a bolt rifle.

Because the M14/M1A rifle is a short stroke, its use of powders is a little more critical than the parameters defined by your rifle.

Gene

Lawndart and Jeffe,

The reason for Varget is based solely on the need for a powder that is not influenced by temperature. Only one load for all the rifles is used and demo temperature can range from a -10 F. to a +110 F. Plus the fact, that we have 20lbs of Varget left has a little to do with it.

Gene

Lawndart,

quote:

TAC will feed the best through a Dillon powder measure. RL-15 is easy feeding. Varget requires a better powder measure than the stock Dillon unit.

We use a Hornady progressive. The range we have throwing Varget is +/- 0.1 grain. I know nothing about TAC and the information on their web site is on the skimpy side.

When you said "Varget requires a better powder measure than the stock Dillon unit." is that because TAC is a ball powder???

Gene

Why is it, that when I think of lawndart - I think of a little kid throwing a lawndart way up into the air and yelling, "Fetch Rover".
And here is this dog, tail wagging like crazy, standing beneath the dart. Now that's a scary image to come up with!!!!!!!!

Hi Gene,
The Hornady progressive is pefect for Varget (and RL-15 as well).
The TAC is a ball powder from Belgium (PB-Clermont), that doesn't act like our daddy's ball powder.

When you run out of Varget, have a shoot off between RL-15 and TAC. They are both temperature insensitive also.

Give me a PM then and I will tell you how much TAC is used by Black Hills, and How much RL-15 the military uses in their M-118 LR ammo.

The 175 grain SMK will make it to 1,000 yards supersonic. It was designed to function well in Barrel twists from 1:12" to 1:10".

Call the folks at Creedmore Sports in California. They have some old Jarheads underfoot that can give you the real skinny on 175's out of an M-1A.

We played with "Jarts", and "lawn darts" as kids. Of course, by the second day we had the tips sharpened on a wet stone, and were throwing them at each other, cats and garage walls. You could use some electrical tape to attach on of the real "M-80" or "Silver Salute" way oversized firecrackers to the front metal tip piece and hurl it long and far. It was the logical escalation in our bottle rocket wars. No one died, but it wasn't for lack of trying. The favorite thing of all was slinging real "cherry bombs" with a wrist rocket. This was on the south side of Chicago, and in the very close old suburbs like Cicero and Oak Lawn. We all had to dig one or more BB's a year our of our skinny little hides. Only one kid really got hurt. This was a couple years later. A kid named K. Lawless was riding his bicycle past the local public golf course. An enthusiastic duffer shanked a one wood tee shot that nailed K. in his left testicle, which had to be removed. For the rest of his life he will continue to known as balless Lawless.

lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by Gene Johnson:
Lawndart and Jeffe,

The reason for Varget is based solely on the need for a powder that is not influenced by temperature. Only one load for all the rifles is used and demo temperature can range from a -10 F. to a +110 F. Plus the fact, that we have 20lbs of Varget left has a little to do with it.

Gene

The 20# thing makes darn good sense to me...


I really need to say this, and make it darn clear...

EVERY reaction is affected by starting temp.. EVERY ONE, without exception, period. Varget MAY exhibit less radical changes, but a -10 load AINT the same MV as a 110 degree load.l.. nor is bullet flight ANYTHING like the same due to air density.

Chrono some loads with just 40deg different.. say 60 in the AM and 100 in the PM, and see what the diff in loads is.

the assumption for all reactions is STP, and has to be adjusted for ambeint. Kinda like not taking air drag or gravity into the equation.

opps.. rant off...

jeffe

Jeffe,

You're absolutely correct. Ambient conditions can significantly alter exterior ballistics.

What I didn't mention is that the equipment being demonstrated has a military application.

The rifle requirement is there to show how everything works. The guys doing the demos literally show up with a thermometer, humidistat and very accurate pocket wind meter.

What I get a kick out of is that the smart ones always figure out how to get a "test" round down range before everything starts.