Let me preface this post that I am new to re-loading. I've reloaded about 300-400 cartridges total for a Remington .270, 38 special and .357 magnum combined.

The issue I am having is every once in a while after discharging a round from my .270 the brass will come out of the gun and have a black residue looking substance in the extractor groove. It looks like charcoal. This happens inconsistently and with brand new brass along with brass that has been fired 2-3 times and at all powder loads (lower pressure load and high pressure load). I am told it can be normal to have a black substance around the neck when shooting a lower pressure load but everyone I have showed my brass to has stated they've never seen anything like what I am experiencing. I have pictures but am having trouble knowing how to post them on here. By bolt opens easily every time and there are no signs of pressure.

Has anyone else heard of this before and what do you think causes it and is it a cause for concern? Please see below for more specifics about the particular load:

I am using Lyman's re-loading handbook 49th edition.
110gr Hornady Vmax bullet
Remington .270 model 700LH bolt action rifle
CCI primer
H4831SC powder at 56grains (load data indicates starting load at 54gr up to 61+grans). 56gr gives me 1 hole 4 shot groups at 100yds.
My seating depth is 3.295in

Thank you or your input.

Low pressure will cause this. The neck is not expanded by the combustion gasses enough to seal the neck, and soot makes it back the exterior of the case. 56 grains is too low according to Hogdgon.
They say 58-62 grains with a 110.
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Try more powder, or a faster powder.

quote:

Low pressure will cause this. The neck is not expanded by the combustion gasses enough to seal the neck, and soot makes it back the exterior of the case. 56 grains is too low according to Hogdgon.
They say 58-62 grains with a 110.
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Try more powder, or a faster powder.

+1 Looking at the Hodgdon data and eyeballing it a bit, you may not be making 40,000 CUP with that load. That said, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know this is problematic. You might have found a low accuracy node and you might not find one for this bullet at a higher powder load without going over pressure.

Welcome to AR.

LWD

quote:

Try more powder, or a faster powder.

I agree w/both Jason & LWD.

H4831Sc is a great powder for a 270 Winchester; if not one of the all-time best but it's reputation lies w/130 & 150 gr. bullets.

For 110 grainers I'd step up a notch or two in realtive burn rate, to for example AA-4350, IMR-4350 or H-4350.

Welcome aboard w/your initital post, too!

Also new to reloading. A week back, I loaded up 50 shells for my 7 mag; trying to find the most accurate load. Used 4350, from 57.5. 58.5 59 59.5 60 grains using 160 noslers. I noticed the same black around some of the necks when I ejected the cases. Yet, I think I'm at upper end of what I should be using as load. What also could be wrong with what I'm doing?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:

quote:

Try more powder, or a faster powder.

I agree w/both Jason & LWD.

H4831Sc is a great powder for a 270 Winchester; if not one of the all-time best but it's reputation lies w/130 & 150 gr. bullets.

For 110 grainers I'd step up a notch or two in realtive burn rate, to for example AA-4350, IMR-4350 or H-4350.

Welcome aboard w/your initital post, too!

I agree with this contribution. Faster burning powder like H380 Ball or IMR4320 works excellent with 100 and 110gr bullet.

*I could agree with all the responses in an attempt to gain acceptance, but I do not agree.

Time is a factor, the expansion starts at the rear after the primer drives the case forward, so smoke on the neck is expected, with low pressure the smoke escapes past the case body between the chamber and case body, so if the case body is not smoked-up pressure is sealing the chamber with the case,

That leaves something not working as designed, back to the primer and driving the case forward, when the case is driven forward and the primer driven back (or consider the primer never moves) it un-seats, the un-seating of the primer can allow gas to escape between the primer pocket and primer, when this happens the soot, hot high pressure, metal cutting gas can escape, continuing to fire a rifle in this configuration can cut a circle in the face of the bolt (and cut the firing pin hole larger), so examine the bolt face and check for bolt face cutting or a ring image, the remedy is to increase the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder, or avoid full length sizing cases with chambers that are on the field reject side in length.

Time as a factor: My primers are crushed before the rest of the components know it was hit, for acceptance I could say the firing pin drives the 'whole thing forward' but my components can not accelerate to a speed = to the speed of the firing pin, so my primers are crushed, the expanding gas drives the case forward and if the head space is excessive the primer allows gas to escape.

F. Guffey

DPollard,

Welcome to the forums here!

Do you have a smudged case you can post a pic of? As you can see there can be a few causes and a pic can help narrow down the options instead of blind guesses.


F. Guffey, You'll find here that most people posting would rather have you speak your true thoughts about an issue even if it turns out to be slightly mistaken, so go ahead and type away. (I do agree with your theory the gasses seem to be coming from the back instead of the mouth of the case but I think a pic needs to be viewed before we can guess exactly where they come from....)

Yup! I think the powder's too slow as well. Checking the Hornady book, they don't even list H-4831. Though I've never used a 110 bullet in my .270, I'd look at something like IMR-4350, Win. 760 or maybe Rldr-15 for this one. Better yet, I'd recommend that you get a Hornady reloading manual.
Bear in Fairbanks

New, factory and reloads! If the cases had soot on the neck the OP would have noticed it and those in the real world would have noticed,. If there was soot on the case body the OP would have noticed and the observers in the real world would have noticed.

Me? I am a big fan of determining head space first, then form and fire, it makes no sense to fire first then determine the effect the chamber had on the case when it was fired. I am a big fan of cutting down on all that case travel, determining the length of a 270 chamber is as easy as sizing a 280 Remington case (forming, necking down and knowing when to stop forming the shoulder) me I would adjust the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die to .015 thousands to start forming, if the case will not chamber I would reduce the gap to .010 thousands and continuing reducing the gap until a case chambers. and yes the case will require trimming.

And I know, it is perceived the shoulder is moved back when sized and blown forward when fired,that would make seance if when I fire necked up 30/06 cases to 30 Gibbs, 338/06 or 35 Whelen my cases would come out longer, none of my formed cases lengthen, they all come out shorter, some as much as .040 thousands, so when I form or fire form part of the shoulder becomes part of the case body and part of the neck becomes part of the shoulder, so in my forming process part of the shoulder is erased and becomes part of the case body and part of the neck at the shoulder/neck juncture is erased and becomes part of the shoulder, the case body expands etc and the neck is pulled back, as a results the case gets shorter and the shoulder did not move, it was erased and formed somewhere else, and 'blow out' does not mean out the barrel, if the case gets shorter when fired, so IF the case expands to fill the chamber brass has to come from somewhere, with only being able to keep up with one thought at a time some could conclude it stretches? Then there is flow, if a case stretches, where are the skid marks created when the neck sizer (shooter/reloader) only neck sizes 5 times before starting over and believes he is moving the shoulder back and starting over when full length sizing.

DPollard, if the case body is not sooted up the soot can not get to the rear of the case unless it passes the neck, shoulder and case body, check your bolt face.

F. Guffey

Guffey,

First off, we really need to wait for Mr. Pollard to reply back and preferably with pictures as anything beyond this point is guessing. Also realize that he is a new member and has only made this one post so it may take him a while to respond, and sometimes they never do.

Another reason for waiting for an answer and a picture, is what if he replies with a picture of a normal case with smudging on the primer and mentions that this had never happened until his buddy had him clean his bolt and lube the firing pin with powdered graphite? Anyway, kinda like fishing sometimes you just gotta wait around until something happens and sometimes nothing does.

But hey, now that you are here I'm sure you can find a few more threads that can use a second or third opinion!

Mark

Mr Guffey, don't you think the poster should at least get his charge up to the listed minimum before he starts looking for odd or rare occurances? I troubleshoot HVAC equipment all day, everyday. Start with the basics. Before you tear it apart to look at the internals, does the machine have power? Get your charge between minimum and maximum and see if the soot goes away.

I have never seen a primer pocket leak, that I know of. I always thought the cup expands outward, sealing the pocket like the base of a Minnie ball seals the bore of a muzzleloader. That is just my guess.

I disagree that expansion starts at the base. Pressure is the same at every point in the case, and the base is the thickest, hardest brass. and the neck the thinnest, softest. I expect the neck to expand first.

Mark is right, the OP is long gone.

Thank you all for your input. I think the best thing for me to do is post the pics of the case, however, I am having trouble seeing how to do that on this forum. Can someone explain to me how to post the pics?

Thanks!

You need to host them at an external site and then put a link here. If you don't know what the heck I'm talking about it's OK, let me know and I'll PM you my email address then all you have to do is send them to me and do all that for you.

Mark, I saw that i could host them elsewhere, I just don't have a place to host them. Go ahead and PM me and I'll shoot you the pics.

Thanks.

PM sent.

<div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="http://static.pbsrc.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf" flashvars="rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed1088.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi330%2Fpollard_derek%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.pbsrc.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i330/pollard_derek/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.pbsrc.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div>

Here is a link to the pictures of the casings I have referred to in my post. I hope this helps.

http://s1088.photobucket.com/a.../i330/pollard_derek/

If your cases and powder charges are within specs, take the gun to a gunsmith and have the chamber checked out.

quote:

Originally posted by DPollard:
Here is a link to the pictures of the casings I have referred to in my post. I hope this helps.

http://s1088.photobucket.com/a.../i330/pollard_derek/

Derek, usually with low pressure loads you will find a little powder residue around the neck and shoulder area of the case but I have not come across it up around the case head as in your photos. Looking at the primer it seems a low pressure load but then again your chamber maybe quite oversize too so as others have post, pay to get it checked out properly.

Now that you have your photos hosted on photobucket, if you point your cursor at the photo a drop down window appears titled "SHARE". If you then click in the buff coloured box next to HTML code it will change to "copied".

In your post on AR, right click your mouse and select paste. Now you will have the "image" link in your post and when you select post now, the actual photo will be in your post. Saves us having to go to your photobucket page. Do this for as many photos as you want to add. Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by DPollard:
Here is a link to the pictures of the casings I have referred to in my post. I hope this helps.

http://s1088.photobucket.com/a.../i330/pollard_derek/

With apologies, I cropped them a bit and hosted them so they will load faster and not overwhelm the page.

In this era of high speed internet, it is easy to forget we still have a lot of members here that have dial up, either by choice or it is still their only option.

OK, well it does not look like an excessive headspace issue to me at all. It looks like the residue comes out of the mouth and moves backwards with absolutely no leakage from the primer.

Have you ever had this issue with factory ammo? I suspect not but please correct me if I am wrong here.

As an experiment to verify, I'd suggest instead of going with a faster powder or increased loading you keep the powder (change the amount if you have to of course) and load some heavier bullets and see if the sooting goes away. You can also try increasing the crimp pressure slightly.

It is an anomaly, that is something reloaders do not normally see nor do they understand it when it happens, as has been pointed to me time is not a factor, they think it is nothing before and then suddenly and all at once, that is not the way MY rifle works as in the sequence of events, without time as a factor, there is no sequence of events.

I went to the range with 10 rifles, I ask Dottie to give me room, I did not want someone next to me and if it gets crowded I will quit test firing and go to sighting in others rifles, the first /next person on the range choose to disregard her request and set on my right side, I ask him if Dottie ask him to give me room and he said yes but choose to ignore her caution because he was knew a lot about shooting, I fired one round, then he tells me he never saw anyone cover a rifle before shooting, I informed him the bullet leaving the barrel creates a vacuum, the vacuum pulled air into the receiver 'WITH DIRT' so I cover the receiver with a clean white cloth to filter the air, then I looked at him to see if he was dumb enough to believe me, he did not ask anymore questions, he did not move and I started adjusting scopes etc.,

The white cloth I covered the receiver with when removed after firing had to black soot marls on it, the rifle was a 6.5mm50 Japanese, the two soot stains came from the two smoke holes on the top of the receiver. the barrel looked good but was shot out, the case when ejected looked identical to Pollards case, time as a factor, the case did not seal the chamber, soot filled the area between the case and chamber then (if time is a factor) enough pressure increase to the point the case filled the chamber, with no room the soot was crushed and or squeezed out when the case expanded. So clap your hands then ask yourself, where did the air go, the air that was between the hands? Then, wonder if the air between the case and chamber being forced out left with enough velocity to carry particles out with it. On my rifles it starts with the firing pin crushing the primer, and if when you pull the trigger there is nothing before and suddenly and all at once, nothing before or after, it is OK with me.

Pollard says it happens occalinaly with new and reloaded ammo.

F. Guffey

Mark,

This only happens with re-loads, never with factory ammo. I think I will first have the chamber examined by a gunsmith to rule out any potential safety issues. If all checks out ok I will load up my 130 Hornady bullets and see if I still get the same problem. Nobody I have showed my cases to has seen this before and from what I can tell it seems to be somewhat un-determinative on here as well. :/

Mr Guffey, I am not sure I understand the "time as a factor" comments. Will you please explain what that means?

Thanks.

You need more powder, or a faster powder. The pressure is to low. Many people have told you this, but you don't get it. This is common with light charges of slow burning powder in large magnum cases. The body will even get pushed in by the pressure getting by the neck. It is also in an old Speer reloading manual, with photo.

Mr 243winxb, perhaps you should read back over the posts and see that many people have disagreed with the theory of "more powder, or faster powder". I fully understand what they have said so not sure why you feel the need to say I don't get it. Thank you.

marK,,,, dpollard I have seen this with semi autos like the garand and rem7400's. what type of action do you have?
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by DPollard:
Mr 243winxb, perhaps you should read back over the posts and see that many people have disagreed with the theory of "more powder, or faster powder". I fully understand what they have said so not sure why you feel the need to say I don't get it. Thank you.

I think the reason he says "you don't get it" is that the solution to your problem is "more of the same powder or use a faster powder", yet you prefer to attribute the problem to something else for some reason.

rcamuglia,

I am not attributing the problem to any one specific thing. There have been many other posts that suggest things other than the more or faster powder. I am not suggesting one answer is more correct than any other and I have not discounted any of the theories, I am just simply saying that I am taking them all into consideration and his post was not needed as it did not add anything to the question originally posted.

[QUOTEmarK,,,, dpollard I have seen this with semi autos like the garand and rem7400's. what type of action do you have?
DaveQUOTE]

It is a bolt action rifle. Remington model 700.

If the powder charge you are using is that far under the recommended starting load it is most likely the problem and that's what folks are trying to get across to you. It's an easy fix.

It's simple to start there and if it continues to occur with loads in the recommended range, then start trouble shooting your equipment.

Ballisticians publish loading data for a reason

Smokeless needs pressure for complete combustion. You're not getting a decent working pressure.

Other things to check. Neck tension/bullet pull- 1. After seating a bullet, does the neck get larger in diameter by .002" or more? Compared to the sized/expanded neck.2. Bearing surface of the bullet should be in full contact with the neck area. A COL to long or to short is not good. Firearms Chamber- 1.If the freebore/throat is out of specification, to long and large, pressure will be low on firing.The distance to the leade/lands that the bullet has to travel/jump, has a direct effect on pressure,making it lower. Another is- Compare 3 fired factory rounds brass neck diameters to 3 of your low powdered handloads. A low powder handload will sometimes not fully expand the neck to the same diameter as factory ammo. This is a sign of low pressure also.

Pollard, time as a factor except for those that that say "it all happens in milliseconds, therefore it does not matter" If there was any truth to the 'does not matter' there would not be a need for powders with different burn rates.

There is simplex, duplex, triplex and quadruplex when trying to keep up with a sequence of events, some events start out simple then progress to events that have 4 events going on at the same time,when I pull the trigger, the hammer/firing pin moves forward then strike the primer, when this happens the primer is crushed (before the rest of the components know it (the primer) has been hit, the expanding pressure inside the primer pushes the case forward (this is where it gets crowded) the primer ignites the powder inside the case causing pressure to increase, the pressure inside the case causes it to expand and seal the chamber (in the perfect world) and the primer to conform or mold itself to the firing pin, as pressure inside the case increases the bullet is pushed out of the case and into the throat, the amount of free bore determines the distance the bullet has to travel before it hits the rifling/bore, when the bullet hits the rifling it creates an obstruction, the obstruction forces an increase in pressure, once the pressure increases the obstruction is overcome and the bullet leaves.

Back to your case with soot on the neck, case body/shoulder juncture and around the head of the case in the extractor groove, Your case did not expand and seal the chamber until the bullet got to the rifling, the delay allowed powder that did not burn efficiently to exit the mouth of the case and travel the length of the case, back to more than one thing/event going on at the same time, if the powder can travel from the mouth of the case back to the head of the case, how far forward did it travel and remember it has a shorter distance to travel AND the bullet is not up to speed AND the bullet has not sealed the bore from the chamber meaning the expanding pressure/gas is passing the bullet and building up in front of the it, yet another event, the soot/charcoal looking stuff is matter, it has weight and takes up space, the part that takes up space increases resistance, the resistance forces the burning powder to increase in pressure, when the pressure increases the case seals the chamber and forces the bullet down the bore and out. As to the part where no one has ever seen anything like your case, the soot at the case body neck juncture was trapped when the shoulder partially sealed and the case body sealed, with more pressure the shoulder would have conformed the the chamber, again there was not enough pressure to completely seal the chamber.

Had you used a longer bullet the distance the bullet had to travel (free bore) would have reduced the time it took for the bullet to leave the case and seal the chamber. Had you used a faster burning powder the time it took the bullet to hit the forcing cone/rifling would have been reduced, there is a twilight zone with time and the perfect world, when everything is not perfect the neck turns black with soot. I am not a fan of the reduced load, I believe the reduced load is cute and comes with a phenomena, it can cause the shooter to walk off asking the question "did I double charge one case" or "Why didn't the bullet get out of the way before the pressure rendered my gun scrap"

Mr. Pollard,
What most of the posters are trying to tell you is that you either need to increase the weight of the powder you have selected, change to a faster burning powder to gernerate chamber pressure earlier, or use a heavier bullet (that will follow Newton's 2nd law; Objects at rest tend to stay at rest.) and build more pressure behind it.

You have indicated that this problem only occures with your hand load which tells me the rifle is not at fault.

Mr. Guffey, I can only add one thing to your seguence of events when the round discharges. At some point between the primer set back (when the primer detonates and slips to the rear while pressing the case forward) and the case expansion, the case also is also set back to the bolt face making the primer appear to be flush after firing. I only mention this because in the event of a missed powder charge or very light, near non-existant powder charge, I have seen rounds where the shell does not set back and the spent primer still protrudes from the case.

With only having some data infront of me it seems that the powder charge you are shooting and the starting load are low. Most of what I have seen is 58 grains start and 62 max. My manuals are at home.

Have you shot the 110 grain VMax in a factory load? Have you chronographed the factory load and your handload?

Steve's Reloading Pages has a recommendation of 52.4 grains to 62.0 grains.

I'd bet the pressure is too low also. I have a very accurate load for my 204 that does the exact same thing. Needless to say, I didn't find a load I liked at higher pressures with that powder and have since moved on to another powder.

Thank you all for your input. I have confirmed with a gunsmith that it is a headspace issue. He measured it and there is too much.

What is his proposed solution? You know you can adjust your ammo's specs to match your chamber, within reason. Did it close on the field gauge or No Go gauge?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bja105:
What is his proposed solution? You know you can adjust your ammo's specs to match your chamber, within reason. Did it close on the field gauge or No Go gauge?[/QUOTE

It closed on the gauge very easily. I am having it re chambered. I also found out it is the original model 700 and is over 50 years old so I would imagine has had its fair share of use.