quote:

Originally posted by DPollard:
Mark,

This only happens with re-loads, never with factory ammo.

Are you trimming your cases to length? If not that could be causing a crimp inside the chamber and is very dangerous.

Also make sure that your chamber is completly free of any oil and squeaky clean, the brass is supposed to seal against the chamber and any oil or grease in the chamber will prevent such a seal. and as such the same applies to your brass.

quote:

Originally posted by DPollard:

It closed on the gauge very easily. I am having it re chambered. I also found out it is the original model 700 and is over 50 years old so I would imagine has had its fair share of use.

quote:

Thank you all for your input. I have confirmed with a gunsmith that it is a headspace issue. He measured it and there is too much.

Hey man...it's your money.....spend it any way you want.....But I'll bet that it's not going to fix your problem.....further I'll bet that the headspace isn't any different than when that gun left the factory!

And once more.....you've been given good advice here.....seems you're not interested in what these folks have to say! Did you want them to tell you what you already thought?

Vapodog,

You're right, it is my money and I will chose how to spend it. Thank you very much. You seem to only want to pay attention to the posts that support YOUR theory and ignore the rest. If there is too much headspace, there is too much headspace, period. Go back and read where others have suggested it may be a headspace issue. Then once you've fully educated yourself you can reply.

Bottom line, also, the gunsmith showed me where my primers were backing out, which is also a sign of too much headspace and a cause for concern.

quote:

You're right, it is my money and I will chose how to spend it.

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

You're right, it is my money and I will chose how to spend it.

Good luck!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if I went to a faster burning powder or increased the powder charge with the current powder (which I still plan on doing), wouldn't it be imprudent to fire a gun with too much headspace? From what I have read too much headspace is a real cause for concern.

The headspacing should be corrected, this will also fix any barrel throat erosion if the rifle had may rounds fired thru it.As i said before>

quote:

Firearms Chamber- 1.If the freebore/throat is out of specification, to long and large, pressure will be low on firing.The distance to the leade/lands that the bullet has to travel/jump, has a direct effect on pressure,making it lower.

Factory ammo when fired in a rifle with excessive headspacing will show some signs. Look for a shiney ring in the body or near the case head like in these photos.

quote:

From what I have read too much headspace is a real cause for concern.

Actually no it's not.....well depends on how much

Every thing you gain by correcting the headspace you can do by compensating in reloading.

I once had a "Gopher special" pre-64 M70 in the .270 chambering.....I was still a teenager and wasn't getting groups like I wanted so saw a gunsmith about it and he said I had excess headspace. Mind you this was a more than 40 years ago.....I paid him $110 to correct the headspace and absolutely nothing was solved. I stupidly traded that gun.....when all it needed was probably a free floated barrel!

Had I known then what I know now, I'd never have corrected it as all I needed to do was measure the cases with a piece of small ID steel tubing and adjust my resizing die to push the shoulder back about .005.....

I currently own a M-99 Savage in .308 and it has excess headspace.....closes on the No-Go easily.....so what!.....The ammo I feed it is about .015 longer than factory ammo....problem solved.....and BTW...it shoots factory ammo nicely....OH...one more thing....it only has about 60 rounds of factory ammo through it before I discovered the headspace!

Most gunsmiths use a "NO-GO" gauge that is .006 oversize of the "GO" gauge.....in fact it's a fine gauge but unless a field gauge drops in and that is about .012 over the "GO" gauge I'd leave it alone.

Gunsmiths are fine folks but so often the first thing they check is headspace and many guns will allow the "NO-GO" to enter....even right from the factory!!!!!

Gains from correction of this is normally zilch!!! It don't improve accuracy....it don't improve safety (unless it's seriously bad) and so far I've never seen a M-700 that bad....not to say it can't be!!!

Typically the result of not correcting headspace is a broken case just above the web....I've had it happen many times....and the case actually breaks in half.....and with a minimum of effort the piece of case lodged in the chamber is easily removed.....usually with a mild thump of the butt stock on the ground!

If one compensates for this by adjusting his sizing die the problem is totally compensated for.

I've seen guns from the factory with serious headspace problems.....and I mean up to .023 over the "GO-GA".....and for this one should merely return it to the factory for a free repair!....but it's indeed rare!

This much is likely.....you'll spend a few bucks to rechamber your barrel and nothing will be hunt.....it'll only cost a few dollars....

That said.....it's not in all likehood going to solve any other problems such as soot on your cases.....I happen to agree with many here that think you're just not building enough pressure in the chamber.....and going to a faster powder won't necessarily help unless you do in fact increase the pressure.

BTW.....there's nothing wrong with having a little soot on the cases as it cleans up with a bit of wiping. I'd be more concerned about underpowered ammo creating other problems.

You just might ask your gunsmith just how much headspace you actually have before he rechambers it....and it's not too hard to do....all he needs is to put electrical tape on the head of the gauge (it should be measured....most of it is .006 thick) and see if also goes......if your headspace is more than .012 over the "go-GA" I'd say fix it....

Again...it's your money and you're the one shooting it.....do whatever it takes to put yourself at ease in so doing!

If you dont see a shiney ring outside on factory fired brass, check inside with a tool. This is from the brass stretching on firing.

Vapodog, thank you for the more detailed explanation. I see what you're saying. I would agree (have never disagreed) that my problem very well could be the fact I am not building enough pressure (minimum start load in my book is 54 grains and I'm using 56 grains) so certainly I could stand to build more pressure.

243...I have actually been getting a shiny ring on my casings. I took a paperclip to the inside to "feel" for signs of case separation but did not "feel" any.

So it sounds like between rechambering and using a faster powder or more powder I will fix my issue - some may find this overkill, the rechambering part, but I am new at this and I would rather do more than I need to and KNOW I am safe than not do enough - piece of mind is worth a lot to me. As I gain more experience/comfort/expertise I can play around with other alternatives should I run into this issue again.

quote:

piece of mind is worth a lot to me.

Absolutely no one can disagree with that!

If you lightly oil new brass before firing
it will stretch evenly and avoid the "ring".
Adjust your sizer for the additional length
and live happy.
Good luck!

There are tools to measure fired brass, this tells you how much you need to size your brass for reloading.Pushing the shoulder back to far on sizing is not good, even with a perfect chamber. To get a correct measurement , full powder factory ammo should be measured. Low power handloads may not expand fully to the chamber.. Have a look at this> http://www.brownells.com/.aspx...pace_and_Maximum_COL

Look familiar? No headspace problem whatsoever on this 300WM Rem 700. The problem was full length resizing too much. Once he set his die to partially set back the case shoulder, all problems went magically away.

But I look forward to your next post where you attest that your gunsmith rechambering your barrel solved your problem.

Full length resizer set back to far is the same as having too much headspace.

Who knows what has been done to Mr. Pollards rifle in the past. It is his gun to fix the way he thinks is best. After he gets it done I look forward to how his handloads work and hope he has a future of good shooting.

No Thingys needed to properly size brass for your chamber.

Your chamber itself is the "thingy".

Simply chamber a piece of fired brass. If the bolt closes with ease, there is no need to do any kind of sizing that touches the shoulder or case body. Simply neck size with a neck sizer die or back off your Full Length sizer a portion of a turn out of the press so that only a portion of the neck (About 1/2 to 3/4) is sized enough to hold a bullet. You will have better accuracy as well because the unsized portion of the neck will closely fit the chamber and center the bullet in the bore.

If resistance is felt upon closing the bolt, you may need to adjust the die to bump the shoulder slightly and PFLR the case body.

You are looking for a "slight crush fit" of the brass when the bolt is closed.

Some remove the firing pin and spring before doing the chambering of fired brass check so that any resistence upon closing the bolt can be directly attributed to the case.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
No Thingys needed to properly size brass for your chamber.

Your chamber itself is the "thingy".

Simply chamber a piece of fired brass. If the bolt closes with ease, there is no need to do any kind of sizing that touches the shoulder or case body. Simply neck size with a neck sizer die or back off your Full Length sizer a portion of a turn out of the press so that only a portion of the neck (About 1/2 to 3/4) is sized enough to hold a bullet. You will have better accuracy as well because the unsized portion of the neck will closely fit the chamber and center the bullet in the bore.

If resistance is felt upon closing the bolt, you may need to adjust the die to bump the shoulder slightly and PFLR the case body.

You are looking for a "slight crush fit" of the brass when the bolt is closed.

Some remove the firing pin and spring before doing the chambering of fired brass check so that any resistence upon closing the bolt can be directly attributed to the case.

Is this technique the same as "fire-forming" the brass? I had another gentlemen mention the technique you have described, which apparently also extends the case life since the brass is not worked so much. Thank you for this tip. I will try it.

When you talk about fire-forming brass, it means taking new brass and firing it in your rifle.

You can do it a couple of different ways.

The first is to simply load it with primers, powder, and a bullet and go shoot. (use some published data of course)

The second way is to "Cream of Wheat" fire form

I like the Cream of Wheat method. You avoid barrel wear.

After doing either, you generally end up with brass that fits your rifle.

On the 300 Win Mag you can only size it too much to a degree because it head spaces on the belt. So what ever excessive clearance that belt has it the excess clearance of head space. You can size that should down as much as you would care too and it's not going to change the head spacing. Now if it was a beltless case, then yes you would create excess clearance. The problem with the belted mag cartridges is if the shoulders are indeed on the short side when fired the elastic portion of the case stretches forward eventually causing a head separation. It's best to only size them without moving the shoulder back, or not back very much.

A friend fired formed cases filled with cream of wheat (which we refer to as COW) and aimed at the concrete in his driveway. He said it cleaned everything off the surface of that concrete and left it with a sand blasted appearance. Although it doesn't wear a barrel as much as shooting jacketed bullets to fire form, it does wear it some. I wouldn't be worried by the amount though. Remember such media as plastic beads and baking soda were used to "sandblast" paint off of automobiles for repainting. They must have some abrasiveness to them.

From what I understand, the belted cases such as the .300 WM only headspace off of the belt when the case is new. After it is fired, then the case headspaces off of the shoulder.

I fired some Polenta case forming loads into a real heavy plastic bucket with a hole just big enough for the barrel to fit through. It eventually blew the end out of the bucket..

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
From what I understand, the belted cases such as the .300 WM only headspace off of the belt when the case is new. After it is fired, then the case headspaces off of the shoulder.

I fired some Polenta case forming loads into a real heavy plastic bucket with a hole just big enough for the barrel to fit through. It eventually blew the end out of the bucket..

I would say most full length resizing dies will push the shoulders back some. I would definitely set the die up to just barely touch the shoulder and do this by smoking or black marker the shoulder.

RC not everyone believes in what you are saying is basically neck sizing. I'm a neck sizer myself.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
RC not everyone believes in what you are saying is basically neck sizing. I'm a neck sizer myself.

Please clarify

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
RC not everyone believes in what you are saying is basically neck sizing. I'm a neck sizer myself.

Please clarify

There are mainly two classes of thought on sizing. There are those that only neck size and there are those that only full length size. There are another group forming that don't run their case into a full length resizing die all the way. The biggest criticism against neck sizing is that you may find yourself on a hunt and your ammo doesn't fit because it had been fired neck sized only that now it needs to be brought back into dimensions by full length resizing. Unless a person is a knowledgeable reloader most often a should will be pushed back by full length sizing. Has to do with die settings.

I either neck size or partially neck size with a FL die.

Just found this:

quote:

The smallest test groups came from cases full-length sized
such as the shoulder was not set back from it fired
position. Sized-case headspace was the same as, or not more
than .001-inch shorter than fired-case headspace. Test
groups were about 1/2 MOA. And cases could be reloaded
20 to 30 times.

This well explains why most folks get better accuracy with
partial-sized cases using full-length sizing dies than by
following press/die instructions for full-length sizing. It
also explains why they get better accuracy with neck-only
sized cases compared to conventional full-length sizing with
the die set according to supplied instructions.

JPollard, most reloaders that claim they are fire forming are shooting new cases and getting once fired cases after the first firing. I form first then fire, when I test fire a 270 Winchester I start with 280 Remington cases, the shoulder of the 280 Remington case is .051 thousands ahead of the 270 Winchester shoulder. The longer case length between the case head and shoulder on the 280 allows the reloader to adjust the sizer die of the 270 to form the shoulder further back, again the shoulder is not moved back, when forming part of the case body becomes part of the case shoulder and if the reloader can keep up with two thoughts at the same time the reloader can form the shoulder exactly where they want it. Again, I have an Eddystone with .016 thousands head space, to increase the effect the case has on off setting head space I adjust the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die to .014 thousands with a forming die (partial full length sizing), then full length size the case with the same gap, something like full length sizing +.014.

It is easy to move (form) the shoulder forward, just fire, I find it easier to find cases with shoulders that are to far forward then move the shoulder back with a forming die and or a full length sizer die, I determine head space first then form/size.

http://www.z-hat.com/Cylinder.htm

R-P cylinder brass is a straight wall case that is 2.650 long, when putting the shoulder where a relkoader wants it, the case is a 'can not fail' to fit if the reloader knows where the shoulder needs to be, OR trying to find out where it is.

F. Guffey

Jpollard, forgive, and there is no excuse for a reloader to have incipient case head separation, a bad habit that is 'tuff' to break is fire first then determine the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. I am a fan of forming cases to off set the effect of head space. Again my favorite case is the 280 Remington.



F. Guffey

I am not sure I got the velocity of this load with 110 gr bullets....????

I would expect a 270 Win to do over 3300 fps with a 110 gr. Varget would be my powder of choice. I would stay away from ball powders as they are old technology & vary too much seasonally. JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
From what I understand, the belted cases such as the .300 WM only headspace off of the belt when the case is new. After it is fired, then the case headspaces off of the shoulder.

I fired some Polenta case forming loads into a real heavy plastic bucket with a hole just big enough for the barrel to fit through. It eventually blew the end out of the bucket..

RC, grits are a lot less expesive than polenta. I've also heard of using grits as tumbling media. Haven't tried it myself.

I got my gun back Tuesday of this week after getting it re chambered. I was able to head out to the range today. I fired the exact same loads I was having issues with. Here are the results: no backed out primers as before and no soot on the cases as before. The only thing that changed was the re chambering.

I still think you could have achieved the same thing by doing what we said.

Glad for you that it's fixed!

Cool!

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I still think you could have achieved the same thing by doing what we said.

Glad for you that it's fixed!

I am not doubting it. At this point I just want to start slow. Perhaps when I have more experience reloading I will do that should I ever need to. I am just glad it's fixed and I can put the bullet where I want it to go!

Dpollard, I want to thank you for staying with the forum long enough to get it done. There are times a question is asked and the original poster never updates progress for what ever reason, I suppose there are times the poster asking the question does not get the answer they wanted.

F. Guffey