How do i know i am close to a good load? i have shot 16 different 3 shot groups out of my browning .243 and i have some that touch two holes and then the third shot is way off. i have some that print a pefect triangle but are 2" groups. i have some that are almost touching but are in a line at a 45 degree angle.

what do i want? well i want to have a 3 shot group i can cover with a quarter. i would love to be able to touch all 3 holes but sometimes that's not possible.

i am using a hornady 87 grain soft point and H4350 and Varget.

-Matt

My comment is: Yours is an example of why 5 shot groups are more the standard - they can tell you more about a load then 3 shots.

Have you checked over the gun and scope completely? Things like the bedding, muzzle crown, screws tight, rings aligned, etc.

You'll get all the help you need here.

interesting. well if i do 5 shot groups then won't my barrel heat up more and take forever to do this testing?

and also, should i shoot 3 times in ten seconds so conditions and temps and barrel temp and etc....remain the same? or do i take forever between shots to make sure the barrel is cold? i shot two right into the bullseye and so i sat down for a minute or two to relax before the third shot because i know its easy to screw that third one up when the first two are awesome.

that one went straight below the other two about an inch and a half or so.

-Matt

I'm fine w/ a hunting rifle & 3 shot groups. I've never fired more than two shots @ a game animla so? The groups that show 2 touching show more pormise than nice round 2" groups. Same for the groups that show stringing. Take your best loads & try tweeking them w/ COL changes & minor up or downs in your powder charge. Sometimes, rarely but it happens, switching to a diff. primer helps the groups "round" out.
FWIW, I shoot my groups w/ 1min. between shots. On really cold days, you can shoot bit faster, on hot days a bit slower. When the bbl. is too hot to hold, stop shooting & let it cool down. This could be why you are getting 3rd shot flyers.

its 30 degrees here today and spitting snow. i went to the range thinking my barrel would cool much faster. it did.

i never once got it hot. i never do. if i touch the barrel and it feels more than lukewarm i stop.

-Matt

Along with checking all items on your rifle, how are you shooting? Are you supporting the rifle with sandbags front and rear? Doing whatever you can to eliminate human shooting error will really show you what the rifle is doing. Also, have you experimented with seating depth? Pick a powder load that looked fairly nice, then load that same powder charge with the bullet seated shallower and shallower. Unless you are already seated .020(I.E pretty close already) off the lands, start seating deeper.

those that have flyers, is the flyer a clean bore shot? Thats all I can think of right now off the top of my head.

In my 243Win. I use IMR4350 and seat 100 grain Rem. Cor-lokts out to just touch the lans. My best group has been five shots in the same hole at 100yds. I was shooting off of sand bags front and rear without any stress on the barrel or action, as in the rifle just laying on the bags and just enough grip on the gun to keep it from flying off the bench when fired. I don't think a hunting rifle requires this kind of accuracy and I can't always shoot this good but this load will Git-R-Dun. I tried the 87 grain Hornady spire points but they didn't group as well and that is when I tried the Remmys.

quote:

Originally posted by mjbgalt:
How do i know i am close to a good load? i have shot 16 different 3 shot groups out of my browning .243 and i have some that touch two holes and then the third shot is way off. i have some that print a pefect triangle but are 2" groups. i have some that are almost touching but are in a line at a 45 degree angle.

what do i want? well i want to have a 3 shot group i can cover with a quarter. i would love to be able to touch all 3 holes but sometimes that's not possible.

i am using a hornady 87 grain soft point and H4350 and Varget.

-Matt

Matt, Are you cleaning between the different powders? May help shrink groups. How often are you cleaning, if at all? Your barrel may like a clean bore. Try a different bullet like a 85gr. Sierra HPBT, the different ogive may suit your barrel better than the secant ogive of the Hornady. Can you shoot your other rifles better than this BAR? And last but not least, what are your loads for the Varget and H4350? Jay

this is an a-bolt, not a BAR, if it changes anything. I can shoot about the same with all my rifles.

I clean after each session at the range.

I will try a clean bore but usually my guns shoot best with a fouled bore.

-Matt

Matt, Just e-mailed Paul @Sierra and asked him what would be a good powder for your bullet weight. Looked on Steve'spages.com and I saw IMR3031 as the best powder.

If all your rifles shoot this way you may need a slightly different technique on the bench.
What do you use for a front rest and rear bag? I happen to have a Bald Eagle "Slingshot" and Protektor rabbitear rear bag, very slick unit, though a Hoppes front bag with the cutout for your forearm works well, too. All I do is align the sights and pull the trigger, takes all the guess work out.

What was your loads again? Just curious. Jay

Hey mjbgalt, If you are not using the Creighton Audette Method you might want to try it out.

From what I have read the benchresters normally look for a powder charge that gives minimal vertical dispersion first up .From there you can adjust seating depth in 5 or 10 thou increments to tighten up the group . This is a good place to switch to 5 shot groups for their improved statistical significance eg. less likelihood of a fluke small group . Have used the above method myself and it works for me .
Horizontal dispersion can be due to a variety of things including shooter error but not normally due to powder charge . If you're confident that everything with you and the rifle is ok but still get a lot of horizontal then suggest you try another projectile .
In my experience if a bullet doesn't show any promise given a couple of suitable but different powders and about 6 different loads with each then it's time to try a another bullet .
The Audette or ladder test works ok with a bullet that your rifle likes . Try one that it doesn't and you'll use a lot of components and just end up confused .

i did not mean i have the same problems with all ym rifles. i meant that i shoot all of them equally well and that i thought this was not a rifle-specific problem.

thanks, guys, for all your support and ideas.

this is one of those times when a rifle shoots almost everything "ok" but nothing "wow."

I have had several groups under an inch and ALL of my groups would hit and kill a groundhog or deer at 100 yards.

as i mentioned on another site, what i want is an "all around" load that will kill coyotes, deer, and groundhogs, and still punch paper nicely.

I would be willing to look into other bullets but since i have come this far with this one let's see how much better it can do.

-Matt

Matt, some rifles don't like certain bullets no matter what powder you use. I have a .338-06 that won't shoot anything that weighs 225gr no matter what powder or brand of bullet. It shoots 210gr & 250gr subMOA. Wierd but that's my rifle, very finicky bbl.. I'm about ready to nickname her "bitch".

Hey Fred, That does seem to describe the situation right well and has a special "ring" to it.

Matt, I started shooting a 87 Hornady HP last year because I had read it was more accurate than the SP, this being in my 6mmRem.VS. With fireformed Rem. brass it'll put 4 shots in about 1/2" and I'll get a flier out about 7/8".(2, 5 shot groups, so far) If you want to stay with the Hornady, try the HP, can't imagine you've got too many SPs left, unless you've got more than one box of 100, if thats the case, I'd say seat the bullet out a bit farther, lets say about .010" off the lands. If that won't fit your mag. then fit it to the mag and be done with it. Otherwise, try the 87 HP or get the Sierra 85HPBT. The Sierra bullet has produced the most consistant groups I've ever seen in a bullet out of my 6mm, 3/4MOA out to 200yds.(5 shot groups).
And inquiring minds would like to know, WHATS YOUR LOADS WITH THE POWDERS YOU'RE USING? Jay

Here's Paul Box's reply from Sierra:



Hi Jay,
My rifle likes 44.0 grs. of IMR-4831 with a Remington 9 1/2 primer
in a Lapua case.Shoots great.
Paul> Paul, Could you give me some suggestions for a powder for your
85HPBT? Best
accuracy/velocity. Thanks,Jay

Whether this helps or not remains to be seen, it's more than likely the bullet that'll make the big difference. Jay

the best groups i got from 41.0 grains of H-4350 and 38.0 grains of Varget.

-Matt

he nezt time i went out my verget load fell apart, same load and everything.

i tried a load with a 95 grain silvertip and 33.5 of varget and damn if it didn't come in under a half inch!

i'll take that.

btw i have a ton of remington primers but that group was shot with CCI's. will they interchange or should i go buy the CCi's again?

-Matt

just went back out with the same load again and did it again. i even put two bullets through the same hole! now i doubt i could ever do that again even if i tried but i have to say, i am happy.

i used the remington primers this time and i do not really see any difference in the group size, just shape.

thanks for all your help, guys.

-Matt