I have a AR-15 with a 1 in 9 twist 24" fluted DPMS barrel I am going to try.
Barnes Tipped Triple-Shock X Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 62 Grain Spitzer Boat Tail.
&
Barnes Triple-Shock X Bullets 22 Caliber (224 Diameter) 62 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail.
Loading with Barnes listed amount of Varget powder.

Have you tried these bullets and what do you like or dislike about them?

Update I took the 62 grain Hollow point boat tail bullets loaded with a Varget load out of the Nosler reloading manual. It was the load next to the max at 100 yards I was able to put 4 in a group of 1/2" outside to outside. It would have been 5 shots but the first was a sighter and then adjusted the scope to move the group up and left. If you count the first shot the total group would have been 1" outside to outside.
At the price of these bullets I did not go any farther with scope adjustment. I also shot a 5 shot 1/2" group with 55gr Nosler Varmageddon bullets. The group was not in the same location being a lighter bullet.

Thanks to all for your information.

I have heard that .223 Rem and .22-250 cartridges have problems keeping the bullet stable in the neck because their necks are too short and the pressure rings of the bullets contribute to the bullet not being held solid in the case neck. However, in my .222 Rem I had good results with 55gr Barnes TSX bullets.

They work fine. They're accurate, they make a nice hole all the way through Bambi, they work as well as the bigger caliber Barnes.

They are a little bit range limited, but will handle 250-300 OK.

it depends on your twist and which chamber your gun has...

i had to use the corbon barnes 223 ammo one year for hunting season -- i had 2 shoulder surgeries, and my heavy barreled single shot was shot left handed that year .. worked fine on hogs and rabbits

I was not able to get acceptable accuracy in my 220 swift.

There is a fair amount of misinformation about all monolithic bullets. Some of the classics are in this thread.

Accuracy. Today we have the best bullets of any type that we have ever had. Manufacturing is far, far better than it has ever been. If you get a bullet that doesn't shoot accurately today, at worst it's a simple matter of a bad box or lot. In the case of factory loaded ammo, it may very well be that the particular load recipe will not shoot well in a given rifle. Just like any other factory ammunition and rifle combination. By and large, factory ammo will shoot inch groups out of a very high percentage of rifles. Not at all what was common twenty and more years ago. Monometal bullets are distinctly sensitive to seating depth in a lot of rifles. However, when they won't produce accuracy in a given rifle for that reason is it the fault of the load or the rifle? When the bullets loaded by the shooter rather than a factory won't produce accuracy, that is on the person doing the loading unless the rifle itself is so bad it won't produce accuracy with anything.

Twist rates. Because monometal bullets are made of copper or copper alloys they are less dense than bullets made with lead. That means they will invariably be longer weight for weight. In rifles with barrels that produce marginal spin rates to stabilize the bullet either depth because of slow twist ratios, short barrel length that cannot develop the velocity needed to spin the bullets fast enough or low velocity loads bullet length can be more troublesome.

Seating depth. Seating depth has always been a problem that needs to be solved to get the best accuracy out of a rifle and load combination. As stated above, monometal bullets tend to be distinctly sensitive to seating depth. Seating depth is defined as the distance the point of inflection from bore diameter of the bullet lies from the rifling, commonly referred to as the ogive.

Neck length of the cartridge has little effect on accuracy in most situations. Cartridges like 300 Savage, 300 Win Mag with quite short necks are very capable of sterling accuracy. If longer necks made a difference to speak of there would be no short necked cartridges.

In my experience, when loading monometals they tend to prefer a seating depth particular to each brand. GMXs need a different seating depth than E-Tips or Barnes in a given rifle as a rule. Some few rifles do not exhibit a distinct preference for seating depth with a brand of monometal bullet, or, with any monometal bullets or cup and core bullets. I have yet to see a good workable explanation for the specifics of this observation. Barrel harmonics does explain sensitivity however. Rifles that are more sensitive to seating depth do tend to exhibit a preference for that seating depth, or another at a velocity node above or below the node used to find seating depth.

Monometal bullets have a very strong tendency to produce very straight wound channels. Often as well they may be smaller diameter wound channels. I have yet to see a monometal produce an inadequate wound because it's a smaller diameter. I do tend to use lighter monometal bullets and push them near maximum velocity. My experience has been that as long as the bullet in use is moving fast enough to fully expand it actually kills better than most cup and core bullets when deeper penetration is required. When it comes to hitting bone, I have yet to see a monometal bullet deflect or fail to penetrate because of the bone. I have only seen one lose a petal, and that was pretty high velocity into very hard bone.

The only downside I have seen with the monometals is that they not infrequently make small holes in the hide even while so consistently making two holes. Caliber size entrance and exit holes do occur even with massive internal damage between the holes in the hide. Small holes in the hide can make for sparse to non-existent blood trails.

Overall, they are much more consistent than cup and core bullets as a rule. Premium bonded core cup and core bullets get close to that consistency, but nothing else stands up to extreme velocity impacts that very short range shots can produce with some cartriges. My next project to stress test them will be to run an 80 grain TSX through Bambi with a 3900 FPS+ muzzle velocity. 3600 works fine, I expect another 300 not to make any difference.

My hunting load in a couple of AR15's is BR4 primer, 27gr of CFE with the 55gr Barnes TSX. A couple of other AR15's preferred 24.5gr of H4895 with the same primer and TSX. Accuracy was sub 1" with either load.

You'll have to work up some loads and see how they shoot in your rifle. I can not imagine shooting chucks or squirrels with those bullets, too expensive.

For bigger stuff? A 223 is no deer rifle. Small pigs maybe. A bullet that pencils through is not good in a small caliber. A hunting buddy and crack shot once shot a huge mulie in the neck with 6mm nosler partition. He lost deer. A regular old Remington core lock would have dropped him like a sack of wet cement.

I am no fan of controlled expansion. Take an old style lead core bullet of 100 grains or more and drive it at over 2600 fps. It will turn the vitals into a pile of goo. No tracking needed.

I have been forced by corrupt politicians to use all copper bullets. I went up to a 35 Whelen. Bigger bullet, expansion matters less.

Please do not shot big game with a 223.

quote:

For bigger stuff? A 223 is no deer rifle. Small pigs maybe. A bullet that pencils through is not good in a small caliber. A hunting buddy and crack shot once shot a huge mulie in the neck with 6mm nosler partition. He lost deer. A regular old Remington core lock would have dropped him like a sack of wet cement.

The last two deer I killed with a .223 were shot with 53 grain TSX bullets started at 3300 3000 FPS respectively. The deer went 200 lbs and 150 lbs respectively. Mirror image hit. in just behind the shoulder and out centered on the off side shoulder. Both sets of lungs well wrecked. Both hearts loose in the chest. Both deer made it about 100 feet. Roughly 3 inch diameter hole through the deer's shoulders.

Would that my 30-30 worked that well with 170 grain core-lokt.

I've tried Barnes .224 caliber bullets in a couple of rifles and never got acceptable accuracy with them. On the other hand, I've used their .308 and .375 caliber bullets with excellent results.

quote:

I've tried Barnes .224 caliber bullets in a couple of rifles and never got acceptable accuracy with them. On the other hand, I've used their .308 and .375 caliber bullets with excellent results.

Posts: 2712 | Location: Ohio, U.S.A. | Registered: 31 March 2006

As is common with .224 caliber rifles, using too much bullet (too heavy, which is really too long) can do that. If you bullet isn't too long for the twist rate of your barrel, then 90% probable it's a seating depth problem.

I accept the seating depth sensitivity of the monos as a price I have to pay to get the performance. I have both the straight and curved Stoney Point (Hornady) gauge. You really only need the curved one. It makes life much easier and helps solve rifles that are sensitive to seating depth with monos much, much faster. I start at load book OAL and if they won't shoot I move right up to .010 off the lands and just keep backing up .010 per iteration until they show me accuracy. It's methodical boring work but it's the most direct route to get you there.

quote:

The last two deer I killed with a .223 were shot with 53 grain TSX bullets started at 3300 3000 FPS respectively

22 calibers are illegal in man areas for big game hunting, and for good reason.

I am not saying that is can't be done. But why would anyone try? It accomplishes nothing and has a greater risk of loosing a wounded animal. IMHO a hunter has a responsibility to use equipment suitable for the job.

I agree with you. 22 calibers are illegal in many areas.

I also agree a hunter has a responsibility to use equipment suitable for the job.

First though, a hunter has an obligation to KNOW what equipment is suitable for the job.

We are discussing 22 caliber Barnes bullets. Like any other caliber, it is not simply a matter of bullet diameter. I can go out and buy many 30 caliber bullets that are not anywhere near so suitable as the 22 caliber Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets, any one of which is far better suited than a very good many larger bullets.

Just as it takes a person with enough peanut butter between their ears to select a suitable bullet from the unsuitable 30 caliber choices, the same prerequisites are necessary to comprehend that just because a smaller caliber is chosen, does not make it unacceptable or even comparatively ineffective just because it's a smaller caliber.

I am sure if you take the time to ask let alone do a proper evaluation of a Barnes TSX/TTSX for deer you will find virtually everyone who's used them on deer will tell you they work very, very well. What more can a person ask for than thoroughly wrecked lungs and a heart loose in the chest with a three inch hole through the offside shoulder and a bullet that provides an exit hole??? Before you question something that works so well, answer me that.

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Originally posted by miles58:

quote:

I've tried Barnes .224 caliber bullets in a couple of rifles and never got acceptable accuracy with them. On the other hand, I've used their .308 and .375 caliber bullets with excellent results.

Posts: 2712 | Location: Ohio, U.S.A. | Registered: 31 March 2006

As is common with .224 caliber rifles, using too much bullet (too heavy, which is really too long) can do that. If you bullet isn't too long for the twist rate of your barrel, then 90% probable it's a seating depth problem.

I accept the seating depth sensitivity of the monos as a price I have to pay to get the performance. I have both the straight and curved Stoney Point (Hornady) gauge. You really only need the curved one. It makes life much easier and helps solve rifles that are sensitive to seating depth with monos much, much faster. I start at load book OAL and if they won't shoot I move right up to .010 off the lands and just keep backing up .010 per iteration until they show me accuracy. It's methodical boring work but it's the most direct route to get you there.

I know about seating depth, bullet length, etc. The fact remains that despite Barnes' claim that their bullets provide excellent accuracy provided you jump through a bunch of finicky hoops isn't true for all guns.

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posted 14 August 2015 15:21 Hide

I know about seating depth, bullet length, etc. The fact remains that despite Barnes' claim that their bullets provide excellent accuracy provided you jump through a bunch of finicky hoops isn't true for all guns.

If a known accurate bullet will not shoot in a given rifle, purely and simply that's either a problem with the rifle or the person doing the loading.

I've solved ~ fifty rifles with monos and some have been very difficult. Over the 59 years I have been reloading I have found other bullets that were equally difficult to solve a rifle for. Some were good bullets, some were not.

I have found one rifle, a Parker-Hale in 30-06 that had a specific and unmitigated dislike for Barnes bullets in particular. That rifle despite having a very nice smooth bore just refused to come under and inch and stay there. With Barnes bullets it fouled unmercifully. Solving that rifle required cleaning it back to bare metal and then coating it with Ultra Bore Coat (Dyna Bore Coat), twice. I have a 25-06 that will only shoot 2-3 inch groups at normal loads with Barnes 100 grain TSX or TTSX bullets. The rifle has a 26 inch barrel and should easily handle 3450 FPS loads. If I drop down to 3220 or so it provides sub inch groups. Clearly, it is a barrel harmonics problem and I have just been unable to find the powder than produces the right timing on it's pressure curve to solve the rifle.

Arguably, those two rifles might be considered a failure with the bullets. Possibly the rifle, possibly the bullet, possibly the person loading the round. If the bullets can produce sterling accuracy at one velocity but no other, if the rifle can produce sterling accuracy with a given bullet, then to me, it would seem a simple matter of I didn't do my part to solve the rifle if it doesn't produce acceptable accuracy Solving easy problems is one thing. Solving hard problems is a whole other thing entirely. Hard problems are not the exclusive province of a given bullet, a given rifle, a given powder etc.

People who do not reload just keep changing factory ammunition until they find something they can live with and not infrequently at pretty substantial expense, and that accompanied by the necessary expense of buying bulk quantities of the solution.

Either do or don't do.

seat monos DEEP . far deeper than you would cup and core, and the accuracy shines.. -065 for medium bores...

bullet placement is everything - I recall several documentaries showing Inuits with mini-14s on snow machines, hunting caribou -

I dare say that Texas has the single large deer harvest, due to length of season, population, and number of hunters .. I think we can agree that this is a compelling situation -- perhaps, even, Texas accounts for at least a plurality of the national deer harvest -- Our season roughly extends from first saturday in october through, basically, 3rd weekend in january

I hesitate to say A majority - as LA allows 7??? in possession - though together i could see a reasonable argument that those states do make up a huge percentage of the harvest...

and the 22 calibers are legal in both states --

and a 223 FAR outshines in "humane" killing over almost all pistols/pistol rounds -- a HUGE 44 mag load barely has a higher energy than a normal 223 load, and 223s are FAR more accurate at distance ... i do grow tired of complaints about caliber being used in place of discussion about effective shot placement


hey, guys, a .224 bullet is closer to a .308 than a .308 to a .416 - which is what *I* consider to be a reasonable, though medium, deer and pig rifle.... I strongly prefer .458 or .475...

which shows you that opinions on bullet diameter are exactly that - opinions

a scoped 223 is likely to be at least as accurate as a .243 or .257.. or 308.. etc.. and a good shot results in a clean kill.. the caliber and the rifle comprise perhaps 20% of a "good shot" ...

just saying

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:
I've solved ~ fifty rifles with monos and some have been very difficult. Over the 59 years I have been reloading I have found other bullets that were equally difficult to solve a rifle for. Some were good bullets, some were not.

I understand. I just lose patience with finicky bullets.

quote:

I understand. I just lose patience with finicky bullets.

I wasn't poking at you. Just paying back the man who taught me to load. Sometime I have to just set the rifle aside and think on it for an extended period before I can get it to do what I want.

after rereading my post --

I had intended to compare the pistol caliber only deer hunting states with the 223 - while I hunt with a pistol, even my handirfile in 223 is far more accurate

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:

quote:

I've tried Barnes .224 caliber bullets in a couple of rifles and never got acceptable accuracy with them. On the other hand, I've used their .308 and .375 caliber bullets with excellent results.

Posts: 2712 | Location: Ohio, U.S.A. | Registered: 31 March 2006

As is common with .224 caliber rifles, using too much bullet (too heavy, which is really too long) can do that. If you bullet isn't too long for the twist rate of your barrel, then 90% probable it's a seating depth problem.

I accept the seating depth sensitivity of the monos as a price I have to pay to get the performance. I have both the straight and curved Stoney Point (Hornady) gauge. You really only need the curved one. It makes life much easier and helps solve rifles that are sensitive to seating depth with monos much, much faster. I start at load book OAL and if they won't shoot I move right up to .010 off the lands and just keep backing up .010 per iteration until they show me accuracy. It's methodical boring work but it's the most direct route to get you there.

Since I am using an AR-15 .223 I am dealing with a seating depth controlled by the Magazine.
The BARNES Manuals call for an COAL no longer than 2.250 with this bullet any longer and they will not feed properly out of my Magpul Magazines. Thank you for your response.

The hot 22s can and do kill deer very well indeed when used within their range of 200 yards or less and with proper bullet placement. I have never lost a deer shot with either the 60 gr. Hornady HP or SP...

In my experience the 22S AND 6MMS do not perform best on deer size game with either monolithics or partition bullets in that they do perform as advertised but the cross section is not wide enough and blood trails are non existant in many cases, and internal damage is not that of a cup and core bullet such as the 60 gr. HOrnady HP or SP.

All one has to do is modify his hunting style with lighter calibers which isn't a bad idea with any caliber for that matter..

I have seen cup and core bullets fail on deer, and I have seen monolithics fail on deer, in both cases it was not the norm, BUT I have seen the big bores fail on deer also again it was not the norm..

Most wounded deer are shooter error and blamed on the gun, bullet, or ammo..bullet failure can be the cause of wounded and escaped animals in any caliber and a big bore that bores thru without expansion in some cases allows the animal to escape regardless of the BS one gets from the big bore boys..

Probably the best way to put this age old conversation to rest is just use a 30-06 with about any 150 gr. bullet on deer size game.