The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Marlin go BOOM, fingers gone!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
A customer came in our gun shop the other day with pieces of his blown up Marlin guide gun. It appears he under-loaded the .45-70, and it detonated on him; taking off a few of his fingers. His hand and arm were in a cast, and he brought in pics of his finger bones sticking out all over. Pretty sick looking! The side of the action was blown away, and the barrel split from the action, out for about 8". The amazing thing 'and luckiy for him', was that the bolt stayed put in the action, and did not come back thru his head. He said he loaded 27 gr. of 4227 without a filler, behind a 350 gr. hard cast bullet. It appeared as if he had an obstruction, but said he shot one into the target just before, so not exactly sure what happened. | ||
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Ouch! I'm hoping he will still have at least limited use of his hand! Not much else to say, we can all armchair quarterback until we die of obesity related illnesses but the fact is this is an unfortunate tragedy all the way around. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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What little I know about detonations is that they result from a serious undercharge of slow rifle powder in a bottleneck case. Would we expect a charge of pistol powder in a straight case to detonate? Wonder if maybe it was a double charge. Might fit, though a fella would wish it hadn't. Here's hoping our fellow shooter/handloader makes a quick recovery. | |||
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Very unlikely. I would bet he had a double charge or obstruction. Most likely a double charge. Wes | |||
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+1 on WESR's comment, especially the second half. None of us reloaders ever want to admit that it can happen. Likely much easier in a big old case like the 45-70. Don't limit your challenges . . . Challenge your limits | |||
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The Marlin does not have a large thread shank or barrel diameter so it is less forgiving of a bone head reload. I doubt that he had that problem with 4227. He probably did a triple charge of something much, much faster like Unique or some faster pistol powder. | |||
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As Mark said earlier, none of us will ever know for certain exactly what went down. IF I was an insurance investigator involved in this case, I'd pay an unscheduled visit to the shooter's home, where I would ask o see his loading room. Once inside and after some relaxing type conversation, I'd look closely around the loading room. Specifically, I'd look to see where and how he labels and stores his powders. (And whether he tends to break new 4 or 8 lb. caddies down into one pound storage lots by using old powder cans/bottles.) I'd also check to see what sort of powder scales he uses (if any), and how many powder measures he has. It is always possible he used the wrong powder, had his scales set wrong, or used the wrong powder measure. (The wrong powder measure could lead to using one set to throw, say, 55 grains of 4350...God knows how much 4227 that might be.) I would also check to see how he stores his bullets. If he got a 550 grain bullet mixed in with a bunch of 350s, it could increase pressures enough to make things interesting...especially as the seater would load it to the same OAL as the 350s...thus substantially decreasing the size of the powder chamber portion of the cartridge case. And if a sizeable sum of lawsuit money (6 or more digits) was hanging on the results of my investigation, I'd also grab that barrel, take it to a commercial lab, and have the powder residue spectrographically analyzed for powder composition if enough remains. It would be nice to know yea or nay if the residue matches the known components of 4227. As one can tell, at this point I suspect he did not experience a classic low-charge detonation. | |||
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 For ever round fired, prior to the last one, there was a hole in the target. | |||
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A reloader friend of mine one time warned me that cast bullets occasionally cause big pressure spikes and to never ever load them hot. Maybe he was right. | |||
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As an old investigator, you can never trust a story where the info is not relatively consistent, or where it is so consistent it sounds rehearsed. In this case, I am seeing some instances of what might be real inconsistency. The first report says the load was 27 grains of 4227 behind a 350 grain bullet, while the load recorded on the posted photo is 15 grains of 3031 behind a 500 grain bullet. If both reports are of the same incident, that would really bother me as an investigator. | |||
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I think we are deal with 2 differant blow ups here the frist one a Marlin guide gun the pictures belows says a 86 win. | |||
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Yup, different blow up. And ya, guys, I figured it was a dble charge right away, but he claims that he not only trickled every charge, but then again re-weighed the loaded rounds for consistancy, before he put them in his ammo box. I personally, think (know), something was not right, or it would not have happened, so I'm with you guys on this one. But I think it does illustrate the point that some guys should just not mess with it unless they have been shown some good solid guidelines. And thanks also, as I hope as well that he comes out OK. From what I saw though, I don't think he will ever get back to full use of his left hand. | |||
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Hey DWright, Would you happen to know if he got this Load from a Manual? Same question for Tailgunner with the 15gr of 3031 with a 500gr Cast Bullet? | |||
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AC A "real" investigator would not have needed to question such a obvious difference IE: Marlin GG vs Winchester '86, 4227 vs 3031, 350gr vs 500gr, just happened vs a obviously old display, etc. He would have known it was two different events being discussed. Here's a theory for you, the powder ignites, the bullet moves forward slightly, increasing the case volume and lowering the pressure, which allows the bullet to sometimes stop in the throat, as the powder continues to burn, again building pressure but this time the bullet (stopped in the throat) is acting as an obstruction, therby causing an "overpressure event" HC That Winny let go when my gunsmith was holding it, IIRC that was some 40+ years ago (I remember that display hanging on his wall when I first went in there at the age of 17, and I'm 55 now). Remember that back in the 60's/70's that it was the fad/rage to underload the old ones so they could be used for pleasurable plinking. | |||
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im new to this, could someone explain how a underload could cause your gun to blowup? im realy confused now? | |||
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Ya, said he got it from Lyman #47. And it does show that as a mid range load, however the manual also lists it with a filler. Then again another friend told me his manual lists a starting charge of about 32 gr; which would have the charge used as 5 gr, under a minimum load, which may create detonation. But then again I'm not clear as to exactly what he did do. Years ago I had a buddy use someone else's scale, and thought the 10gr, marks were 5 gr, marks. He dbl charged his .45 acp, and damn near blew it up. | |||
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Fishguts, theres your answer | |||
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It may or may not be a double charge; nevertheless, I always use a powder that will overflow the case with a double charge. If a double charge can't fit in the case, then it can never happen. The extra $15 for powder doesn't worry me. Another thing that I do sometimes is to pre-measure my charges into transparent test tubes. I can visually confirm that the charges are similar before I pour them into individual cases. analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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I had a friend blow one up. He did 2 things wrong. First off he made a bad crimp and bulged the mouth of the case and had to pound on the lever of gun with the palm of his hand to close the action. Then came mistake #2 and probably the worst....he was using aa#7 pistol powder instead of re7 rifle powder......NOT A GOOD COMBO....PRETTY MUCH THE SAME RESULT AS WHAT WAS SHOWN HERE. | |||
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Ya, had a guy come in the shop right from the range a year ago that had his wife pick up a can of RL-7 rifle powder, but she got #7 pistol instead. Not sure how HE didn't catch the mistake, but he went and loaded up a rifle case with the stuff. Don't recall just what caliber it was, but he blew it all to hell. Luckily, no damage to his body. | |||
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Experiencing "detonation" (or S.E.E., secondary explosion effect) would be unprecedented with a powder this fast in a straight-walled case. Also, I sincerely doubt that even a double charge of the specified load of 4227 would have the effect described. If those assumptions are correct, that would leave the most likely suspect the wrong powder. And it would be hard for one round to get the wrong powder without others in the same batch also having the wrong powder. The first place to look would be the remainder of the batch of reloads he was shooting. What's that? This was a one-of-a-kind that he was trying out? Well, there's your answer. | |||
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thank you dane | |||
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I have to agree w/ most of the guys. The vast majority of KBs in rifles or pistols is reloader error. Wrong powder, wrong charge, always something like that. If one loads small charges of pistol powder, it really pays to triple check each load. I used to load small charges of unqiue under 300gr bullets for CAS. I sued an over powder wad of dacron & charged & seated each round one at a time. Today, it's powders that fill as much of the case as possible. Screw reloading economy. When it comes to my body parts, I want to see the full charge of powder before seating. that goes for pistols or rifles. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Thank you Tailgunner and DWright. Darn shame Tailgunner couldn't remember the specifics, but neither could I from that time period. So, it seems the guy DWright mentioned doing the Reloading did reference a Manual and then apparently decided to just change the Recipe. Booooo! Here is a link to where Dr. Oehler discovered a 50% Pressure Increase due to the position of the Powder in a case. That is in a Revolver Cartridge, but the same kind of Pressure Excursion could have been caused the same way in the Marlins. I do believe there is one Golden Rule of Thumb when it comes to Reloading: "Only use Loads found in Powder and Bullet Manufacturer's Manuals". There are PLENTY of Factory Tested "Reduced Loads" for people that use proper Powders for the situation at hand. And they need to be followed exactly. If you choose not to use them, or alter them, then it is simply a matter of time before the inevitable Ka-Boom. ----- Thanks again for posting this.  | |||
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Thank you for your kind remark. Must admit, I don't agree with it though. In my experience (which included a number of years of doing investigations full time) one may assume things, he may be suspicious of things, he may tentatively conclude things, but he NEVER really KNOWS anything about an incident he played no role in until he has checked it out with every reasonably accessible source. To do otherwise can lead to tunnel-vision on the part of the investigator, which can lead to inappropriate convictions or acquittals. I did not see any need to leap to a conclusion. The things I mentioned were enough to lead a person to "suspect" two different occurances, or incorrect reporting somewhere in the material presented, though not enough to "prove" either. It was easy to just express the concern and to let the posters themselves verify that they were indeed two different occasions, which they did. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Makes me really thankful for the RCBS Chargemaster. Really easy to ensure each load is truly what you want it to be...Worth every penny IMHO. | |||
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Biscut, a machine always does what told to do by her operator. So, neither trust her a 100%, always check at least once. | |||
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Things like this happening to handguns is why they invented Trailboss powder. | |||
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That is the truth. Anyone who works with scales and dispensing equipment on a regular basis knows that they can loose calibration. Heck sometimes they just go plan nuts from one load to the next. In one of my jobs a weigh cell went bad in the middle of a batch and ruined $10,000 or so of rubber. | |||
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well for once, HOT Core and I are going to agree on this.. at least 50% of it.. If you don't know what you are doing, you need to follow someone else's instructions and to the letter.. I still would tend to blame the OPERATOR here instead of the load.. no way of telling now, and few guys will openly admit that they screwed up and take blame for it.. but BE Coole, makes an excellent point.. for instances like this, SR 4759 and especially TrailBoss was MADE for folks like Mr Wright's customer... either way, we all feel for your customer's tragedy... hopefully he will know better next time..if there is a next time.. | |||
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I'm with you boys all the way -- BUT if YOU let your scale be off to the point of a double charge you deserve what you get. Really, how many charges would one have to go without calibrating the scales to get a double charge? \ IMHO that guy shouldnt be allowed to buy powder!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |||
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