I seated a bunch of 6.5 bullets today, and as I usually do with a new rig, I checked runout on both the brass and bullets themselves after seating them. The brass prior to and after seating the bullets was fine, less than .002 in both stages. I used 3 different bullets, Nosler BT's at 120, SGK's and Hornady SST's at 140 grains each. The SGK's and SST's both measured less than .003 of runout, and usually matched my brass measurements exactly, less than .002

The question is: What the hell with the BT's. I would measure the brass at the neck before and after seating--just like with the other bullets--and the neck of the brass was just fine, still less than .002, but the BT's would be .006 to .010 or even .012 out. My first guess was that the BT had a different taper and that the seating plug was hitting the polymer tip instead of the ogive of the bullet, but close examiniation showed this wasn't the case.....

The SST's and SGK's did fit the cup of the seating plug slightly better, but none of them touched the end of the plug, it always contacted each of the 3 bullets on the ogive.

I just can't imagine what is going out of whack, but regardless of how they shoot (probably) I ain't gonna accept that much runout differential between the bullet and the brass....HELP PLEASE....I'm going to look and see if they offer a 120 gr SGK, but I actually was wanting to go to the BT for this rig. My smith recommended against XXX's so they aren't on the menu for now.

Thanks for any input---Don

Hey Fish

Try the Accubonds

6.5 Accubonds

They are supposed to have the same shape as the BT's and the 130 gr ought to be perfect.

Whey did your gunsmith recommend against the TSX?

Woods, wasn't aware of the 130's AB at 6.5 til earlier today when I was on Nosler's web site! I like the sound of that for sure.

My smith said, that in a conversation with his favorite barrel maker, they had both come to the same conclusion, that until the barrel was very 'seasoned' (I know--a whole 'nother conversation--but) the XXX's grooves actually acted as a cutting surface, and could disrupt the metal matrix forming on the barrel, thusly negatively impacting barrel life/accuracy. I've never experienced anything like this personally, in fact XXX's shoot damn accurately for me, and I can't see any negative effects with my Hawkeye borescope, but I'm not a gunsmith either. Importantly, this rifle shoots itty bitty one hole groups with the bullets mentioned, so I'm inclined to go with my smith's recommendations for now at least.....I'm a fan of the AB's so I'll definitely be trying those.

I still want to figure out why the BT's are so bloody crooked.......

Fish,
All I can suggest from what you have written is to take a loose BT press it into the seater punch and spin it to see where the ring is at.
If it makes the contact ring on the plastic tip you might need to change the punch.
Have you tried running the BTs into a second seater or back into the same seater a second time.
It has to be something fishy with the seater punch. Is there any chance at all that you used a different die for seating the BTs?

Interesting comments about the grooves in the XXX. It does make me wonder about the old grooved Noslers, the various cannelured bullets and all those cast bullets with grooves.

Uh-oh!!

I've got guns that have never shot anything else but TSX's!!

Sure didn't know that the soft copper on those TSX's was so destructive!!

That soft copper could act as a cutting surface and disrupt the metal matrix forming on the CM or SS barrel!! But they'd rather you shoot bullets with gilded copper jackets?

Here's one that has been ruined by shooting about 150 rounds of nothing but TSX's



I think I ruined that gun!!



In all seriousness, the TSX's are fairly new and a lot of old timers have a hard time with change.

Hey Don, The next time you to talk with that GunSmith, I'd appreciate it if you would get him to go into a few more details about his thoughts on the TSX bullets "cutting" new barrels. You can even PM me with the info if you feel it is appropriate.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...a lot of old timers have a hard time with change.

One true Rookie trait is his constant whinning that his Elders don't know a thing, but the Rookie knows it all.

Hey HC

Were your ears burning?

I think I have been misrepresented here, I certainly don't claim to know it all. And I don't think that was whining (you misspelled it). That was pure "making fun of". I have certainly listened (at times) to "Elders" when they made sense. Usually have to figure out with new fangled equipment why they were right though! But this TSX thing of permanently harming barrels has me feeling like Columbus being told the world is flat (his "Elders" were convinced also).

So, Fish, see if you can get some facts. Unlike some, I may not take them at face value but will be willing to listen (and maybe laugh, If that is OK with you HC).

Ireload2, same die with all bullets, and interestingly, I think I mentioned, I actually pullled the seater stem and it made contact on the ogive not the polymer tip--however it did contact further out on the ogive than on either of the 140 gr pills. I'm thinking of trying a different seater die, cause I want to shoot the BT's some at least, and I'm not willing to accept this amount of runout without a strong effort to eliminate it.

Woods, I see what you're saying, and your rifle is definitely fried. I think you should send it to me for a while and see if I can 'un-ruin' it.

What the smith said was that the grooves had a cutting effect, especially on a new 'unseasoned' barrel. He does have me convinced that there is a definite break in procedure for a barrel, and has proven it with several rifles he has delivered to me with uncanny accuracy abilities. He didn't say any effect the XXX's had was permanent though.....

Hot Core, I'll get him to recap the details for me, but I do tend to accept what he says, He has provided barrel break in as a service for me on several rifles, and it is very evident that there is a pronounced difference in the shooting ability, ease of cleaning, and longer term between needed cleanings, on barrels broken in per his procedure. Like Woods, I have several rifles that shoot XXX's extremely well, and in fact have two that I don't shoot anything else in. Having said that, both of these barrels went through a break in procedure of my own derivation, but I have revised it based on feedback from this particular gunsmith.


Any thoughts on the runout Bob and HC????

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Any thoughts on the runout Bob and HC????

The only 2 scenarios I can envision at this time is if you are not seating the bullets deep enough for the neck to align the bullet or you have a box of defective bullets.

I don't see how the seater could cause the bullet to have runout if the neck does not demonstrate the same runout. Even if you are pushing on the plastic tip you are not going to deform the bullet down at the ogive, you will mash the tip and deform it first.

I suppose that if you did not have enough neck tension that the BT could be seated cock-eyed, especially with the boat tail shape. Can you push the bullet back in line using Reloader's (thanks for correcting me HC) method of putting an unsized neck of a case over it and pushing it back in line?

I'm just guessing and rambling here. It sounds like a hands-on problem of trying different things rather than a thinking about it type of problem.

Maybe HC has a home-grown method using baling wire or duct tape to fix it.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...whining (you misspelled it). ...

Being an OLD geezer, I'll try my best to describe this as (I believe) Mark Twain(Sam Clemens) once said, "A man that can only spell a word one way - has a very limited imagination."

quote:

Originally posted by Don:
Any thoughts on the runout Bob and HC????

Hey Don, Since I P-FLR for all my Bolt Action rifles, I never give Run-Out a second thought. Mine will shoot in the 6s without worrying about it - so I don't.

I did save a link to a Run-Out Straightening Technique that our old buddy " Reloader " uses.

I'm just not the guy that can help you with it though. Other than to say, it seems like a lot of effort to avoid using P-FLR where it doesn't seem to matter.

The nice thing about the different Reloading Methods is everyone can try them all and see which works the best for them, then use it.

Best of luck to you (and Woods too )

Hot Core, I do PFLR on this cartridge--all actually--but I didn't assume it is OK to ignore that amount of runout.....

Woods--it is a little confusing, but the neck will read at .003 or less, and the bullet (in the same loaded round) will go .012 or so....I've got some other boxes of BT's, so I may try some out of a new box and see what happens.

Later--Don

quote:

I actually pullled the seater stem and it made contact on the ogive not the polymer tip

Fish,
Just holding the bullet up to the seater stem may not tell you the real story. You will get a better idea of where the contact under seating presure is if you force the bullet into the stem and twist it so it leaves a contact ring on the bullet. The sharp plastic tip if the BT may be making contact under pressure.
You might try pulling or cutting the plastic tip off and seating a bullet to see if it is crooked when there is no chance of contact with the plastic.

This may be a silly question, but are you measuring runout inside the neck or outside the neck? If neck thickness is not perfectly concentric, neck runout measured on the outside is useless. Just curious.

Zupspoon, always on the outside. I use the Sinclair concentricity gauge. I'm really stumped with the loaded bullets having good concentricity on the beck, but crappy runout with the BT's.

Ireload2, that is a good idea, I will 'de-tip' a ballistic tip and try loading it up!