AC,
Yes, thanks, especially for the 500 A2 calculations. Very intersting to me, as 570 grain bullets and RL-15 are what I have used in the past, though XLC's, GSC's (FN) and 110 grains of RL-15 were my recipes, often loaded to 3.75" COL, when the bullet has a crimping spot to allow it (GSC's bands).

The specific pressures to 2 or 3 significant digits are a place to hang ones hat, but variations in rifles, bullets and different powder lots takes the significant digit down to 1 (one) for mass applicability.

.

Alf-I really thankyou for chart D.It will
make wildcatting easier, used with my velocity formula.We need to get them to post a bigger simpler version on here for 375 and up, with
chart extended to the right a little.Chart kind of compromises between AC and my math on
the PRM figures, but sure is easier.I will have to find a #3 Handloaders
Digest.Ed

AC--The Chart --Do you accept it???
If so your MEP formula is high, like
mine was.
I do and am changing my MBP(or your MEP)
formula to match it.And raising the PR
mutipliers a little to match, the correct
peak pressure that my velocity formula
uses and gets correct results, and computer programs for velocity use also...Ed.

But your MEP is too high, and multiplying that by your slightly to high PRM you have peak
pressures way to high compared to actual.
Even Quickload says so.In another thread
LAR provided Quickload info for 458, 1860
fps, 530 gr bullet and 42K peak pressure.
When I did ME from 530 gr bullet and 1860 fps, I got 4080 ft lbs.I rounded these off. I found 4080 ft lbs on big chart D I made,
on the 458 line and wa-la got 14k MEP, x 3
PRM for soft or lead bullets, stick powder that I use with chart now, and we have 42k,
Right on the money.Chart works.I say again,
the chart is correct, and your MEP formula
won't, as it gives peak pressures too high.
I had my MEP too high by figuring in friction,
and the PRM low to match peak pressures,
which math and system
was working in the relatively narrow pressure
range I was locked into by the soft headed cases
I used, and big variety of powders to use.
I am improving the system.............And
so is QL as when they started they would have given over 5k more peak pressure,IE, they were
high on anything straight cased which many
showed them was wrong, I guess, as they are getting it right.Improvement is the
word. You say that MEP is related to barrel length.In above example he used 22 in in the
QL program.Say he used 24 in bul travel adding
40 fps, so taking 1900 fps, 530 gr bullet,
gives 4250 ME.Onthe chart D it gives a MEP of
14,300 x 3 gives 43k peak pressure.Which is
about right as lenthening barrels raises peak pressures slightly.I think it works good as
whoever did the chart based it on a MEP formula
that tested out close to measured pressures and velocities.THe complicated formulas for velocity, uses MEP ..Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by ASS_CLOWN:

Actually the Mean Effective Pressure for the 550 Mag shooting a 700 gr pill @ 2350 fs out of a 26" barrel with a COL of 3.75" is 19478 psi.
....blahblahblah

I think that covers all the questions.

ASS_CLOWN

Wow, scotty, first you talk about the 600 OK as if you designed it and are shooting 1/2 a dozen of them, and know you are speaking (out your armpit) "Authoratatively" about the 550 mag.

here's a FACT for you...

YOU CAN NOT GET 64500PSI with RL 15 in a 550 magnum!!!

can't happen...

that's a fact JACK

now, go talk about a 30-06 or something you may own

jeffe

AC- Damnit,what is the purpose of all this--
It is to allow a person to make up safe loads
and determine after firing, with chrono, math, strain gauges, cartridge indicators, etc,if the
load ended up being safe.It is an application of a process.......Being picky about
3% down or 3% up or whatever on some
math factor in the process is bullshit.
That chart D and simple math makes for safe
cartridge, wildcat, and new load developement.
You can start out with load manuals, computer
programs, my formula, and are able to check it.And for barrel length use chart as a 24"
bullet travel(which I think is the intention of whoever made up chart)
chart, and if barrels are different correct.
It is just that simple for your
particular gun and conditions.That is what we are trying to do is apply it to real world on real guns.
I have put the data for a whole bunch of my
loads on to the chart and they check out, a real world check.I used my info for 24 inch
bullet travel or if info was for longer barrel which gave more energy I corrected back to 24, and
shooting long and short barrels with all the powders
I have info on the differences.With the soft headed cases
I had, I figured I was only getting to 60k( and
to get brass ro go that high I had to fire harden it with lighter loads) and when checked out in the chart and using PR multipliers
of 3 for stick and 2.7 for slowq ball, top loads came out at 60k.Good match.
Two examples on 24 bullet travel(1) 4831, 500 gr
bullet,got 2450 fps, 6670 ft lbs.On chart
6670 gave MEP of 20,000 psi times 3 gave 60,000
a match--(2) W-760, 500gr, 2600 fps, 7510 ft lbs, and on chart gave MEP of 22,500 psi times
2.7 gave 60,000 peak pressure.A match.If the chart and math is correct then if you took info and drew a pressure curve based on info, the
look of the curve on the chart will look proper.
Which I have done on all my loading.I draw
tentative pressure curves before I fire a shot in any new designs.If math is off the curve won't be right, which with your
insisting on to high of MEP AND PRM is what
would show up if drawn out to make a visual
depiction of the curve.Also when you figure
bullet travel you figure it to what the base of bullet moves, not the point as you did using COL...IE most cases will have close to 24 inch bullet travel in a 26 in barrel,Ed.

Which way do you think Chart D is off.
Giving readings to low? Too high?
Take my load of 4831, 120 gr - 2450 fps
in my gun-24 in bullet travel and check it with any math you have
and see what peak pressure is.If as you
apparently think--
chart is 15% low then peak pressure would be
70k instead of 60k I say it is,,
And as for barrel length affecting MEP,
that is a no problem, you
correct to a regular 24 in bullet travel..
Adding fps to compensate for barel length
is better than all of your goofy higher math
that makes MEP to large.Gun nuts don't care
about base e, exponents, and math snowjob.

Someone here please check it to see what QL shows.Case cap H20 if needed is 145 gr.
Straight case, 458.

If I found the chart was low in the loads I put in all that needs to be done is change the chart
and swing the ends of all the caliber lines
up, but my loads check out right on or a little high which is good for safety.Ed.

.

Alf a figure that checks out with my
calibers, and I have done short and long barrels, is for stick powders 25 ft/sec
per inch of barrel change, in slow powders, 35 ft/sec with ball powders.And we checked it on a couple 460s also.Example is my 458 HE with W-760 and 500 gr bullet--24 in bul travel 2600---30 inch travel 2800 fps.You know it is funny AC
snows the discussion with all the complicated
math, and condescending attitude, and accuses me of being unsafe, but on another thread talks about how many reloads he gets at
hairy pressures in a pipsqueak 416.
Pressures by the way that I don't promote
in my wildcats.Talk about Goofy.

Oh and another goofy thing he says is barrel
length doesn't affect pressure, I have seen
complicated military ballistic formulas that
says the opposite. 4 inches added to barrel
adds about 1000 psi- in our size bores.Goes back to pressure and time and our
recoil discussion, IE bullet in barrel longer
time holds pressure up a little longer, that pushes on the breech, while bullet is in barrel.

Using chart is a 30 second job.If bul travel is
30 inches subtract the velocity gain the 6 inches gave you, thus using chart as a standard 24 inch MEP(MBP) chart. Figure ME, put on chart,use multiplier and you have standard
pressure. Add 250 psi for each inch and you
have pressure for the long barrel.

I am going to make up a good, neat copy of
my enlarged Chart D covering big bores, and post it if possible to help guys.The chart is accurate, as it was derived from MEP and
Muzzle energy.All velocity formulas, complicated
using a combination from Le Duc, Coppock,etc,
or simpler like Powley's with fudge factors,
have their basis on the MEP that acts over
a time period on the base of the bullet to get velocity and energy.That(MEP & ENERGY)is the chart,and it does work. Ed.

Haven't you guys figured out the ASS_CLOWN method for technical discussions? It goes like this, IMHO:

1. Insert self into an otherwise friendly technical discussion with seemingly innocent comments and questions. Occasionally throw in accurate information to establish credability. This is the 'play dumb' stage.

2. When individuals respond with well meaning, simple answers, deluge them with technical imformation with one or two carefully engineered errors. This is the 'hookset' stage.

3. During the ensuing arguments, alternate between being an expert and an imbecile/simpleton/uncertified mechanic. This is the 'poor me, I just wanted a simple answer' stage.

4. Act hurt, sulk, and insult the other players in the discussion. This is the 'name calling like a ten year old' stage.

5. Most people quit the discussion by now. This is the 'endgame, find a new topic' stage.

AC is obviously quite intelligent, and likes to pull people's chain. The more attention he gets, the happier he is. I suspect Lithium based medications are in his future, if not his current reality.

This is a true internet TROLL. You have been warned.

CDH- Ac is self important.Maybe I am too

AC-You just showed the reason why your math is
nonsense and too complicated.With the 4831 load
you show pressure low by 10% compared to my figures using chart,so I can't be accused of
being reckless there.ON the 760 load you show 16% high, which is crazy as my brass wouldn't
work at that pressure, 70k, it was too soft.
The loads are like I say about 60k.760 load extracted easy and the case had LESS
MEASURED EXPANSION THAN THE 4831 LOAD. In my straight case the 760 I had
seemed to be between 4350 and 4831.It don't act
like it does in necked cases, in my cases.
And the 760 loads extracted easy and you showing a 3.5
PRM for 760 in straight case is crazy.I can do
MEP math,including the stuff you show, but won't as some of it is based on wrong info,
so aptly shown above by your results above.
I say again the 4831 load above you show low
had more expansion than the 760 load you show
high.In fact on 760 load there was hardly any
expansion to measure.I am promoting a simple
type of system embodied in that chart that will
make loading easier.Just figure ME, put it in chart,get MEP, use right multiplier and you have peak pressure.With PRM multipliers that
are common sense for different bullets and cases,like for straight cases 3.0 and necked cases 3.5, solid bullets 10% more. Slow ball
in straight cases 10% less.Oh and by the way
a 460 load with same amount of 4831, soft bullet had almost 60K, I know my straight
case is a little lower than 460 but maybe not
10% lower.AND NOW THE BIG ONE-A 460 LOAD FOR
SOFT 500 BULLET, W-760, 50 FPS LOWER THAN MY LOAD, THAT I HAVE SEEN SHOWS 63K................Ac- your math is screwy for straight cases.
THAT IS WHY THE CHART IS BETTER.With right prm.

Oh and another thing screwy about your math is
bullet travel is measured from bullet base not COL.When I said my short barrel had 24 in of bullet travel that is what it had, same for 30 inch bullet travel, Barrels were longer, 27
and 33. I have since cut 33 back 2 in.Ed

Ed, WWWWWWwwwwwwAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaHHHHHHHH!


Sorry the truth hurts you so much. Get over it! You over load your cartridges, facts is facts.

CDH, in you dreams man, in your dreams.

ASS_CLOWN

Your not consistent.You brag on other thread about getting 30 reloads on a 416 with almost 70k
loads,and then you run your screwy math showing one of my loads low, another real high.Using
book info with a math that is screwy, on the high one that is from sources apparently that wouldn't know a straight case
if it dropped on their head.You show one low,
does that mean I am safe, you show one high
that I developed in hundreds of rounds, using many powders along with the one you show as low, years of careful work, using same case
parameters and signs.
I think that shows and means I am safe and some
your math is screwy.It seems like your playing games with the math as your MEP figures in the two examples
you did above are 500 psi lower than what I show on chart, which is OK, fine, chart has safety margin, BUT further back in the discussion a few posts up you was showing MEP over 2500 psi
higher than the chart when we started to discuss the chart.You trying a snowjob? Then
you take
these nearly correct MEPs and using whatever, whereever you got info,stuck in for 760
put in an inflated PRM.That info for 760 you got is wrong in a straight case.
Granted the 760 is a faster than 4831-4350 after it gets going, but it peaks out on pressure curve
in straight cases 50% later than stick powders
and the curve doesn't spike as high relative to the energy the powder has in the loads with more wt and more energy per grain.Stick powders
have a peak or crest less than
.1 m-sec long( made a correction, forgot decimal point),
while ball like 760 the crest will almost
.2(same correction as above),
m-sec long and more height under the curve,
for a higher MEP pushing on the bullet.That is why max load of 4831 in short barrel, with my
soft, junk brass, was 2450
and and 760 was more at 2600.The 760 didn't have more extreme,outlandish, dangerous peak pressure spike to do better, just more area under the curve.Better powder for case.
And with hard webbed brass velocities were
9% higher, still with no extraction problems.

AC Run this load--550 bore, 700 gr bul- 3 inch
straight case- and 120gr W-748 ball, case cap H20 about 155 gr, 24 inch bullet travel
2150 fps. Run it through your system and tell us what you get.Ed.

Hey I missed PUTTING IN THE decimal points.You could just tell me that as you should know what I was referring to.
Geez,you appear to not being interested in solving anything.I know what bullet time in the barrel is----

As to what I asked you on550 I didn't ask for long barrel info, just short barrel, 24 inches
of bullet travel.That part don't matter, but
in this instance --drum roll--THE MEP YOU GOT IS THE SAME AS WHAT I GOT FROM CHART and using my multiplier
for a little faster ball powder gave about the same peak pressure as you just got.AND THIS IS A REAL LOAD NOT ONE I MADE UP AND NOT MINE.

How in the world did you get the load in my
458 with 760 a slower powder, with bullet light enough so that the sectional density the powder was pushing was about the same as the 550; clear up to 70k---Dammit there is somthing wrong with some of the sources and math you are using. The chart is consistant, and the more you do different examples that I ask you, the
closer your MEP gets to the chart, but
some sources of PRMs for 760,have got to
be very wrong.

ON A POST YOU DELETED ABOVE
you showed PRMs quite different for 760 and H-414, but they are within a half percent of each other in all my years of testing.
Please check your sources.MY Hogdon manual shows
414 and 760 within half percent of each other,
on 500 gr 460 loadings..By the way I wouldn't check anything wit a company that can't make it on their own.................But I will believe the folks who bought them out and wrote "THE" Manual..And MEP math can be done by me, complicated, wrong in parts, or simple, closer to being right, well the complicated isn't
going to fly., And if it doesn't work as born out by mine and others testing, including loading manuals, it should be checked...Oh and I am not whining, just solving problems, and trying to make big bore developement better for everybody.I'd like to get a copy of my enlarged chart on here, but getting pic of chart on here clear, my camera won't do it, so anyone who
can scan and do it let me know. It is big with instructions printed on
it, 11 x 17 big, 375 and up, clear easy to see,
just contact me and I will send one to scan .....Ed.