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When and where would you say that the birth of a rifle shooting jacketed bullets and using smokeless powder capable of consistent sub-moa accuracy first appeared in America? There is no right or wrong answer I’m just curious as to what folks believe or for that matter if it’s something that you ever took an interest in. Thanks, | ||
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Just a wild guess.....it came with the advent of the 1903 Springfield rifle..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I think Mauser had that beat by at least 10 years. I'm sure some of those 93's made it back to the states after the Spanish-American war. | |||
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From a "Factory Rifle" perspective, it is fairly recent(25-30yrs or so). But, that also includes great strides in Bullet-to-Bullet Consistency within the same box. Most of the old rifles shoot better today than they did when new because of the current high Quality level of all the Cartridge Components. Interesting, thought provoking question. | |||
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The accuracy part depends on who is shooting, I had my brother in law shoot my rifle and could hardly break one inch, I shot it and got about 3/8 inch five shot group and his was 3. Also some days are better than others for accuracy, depends on your mood and ability on that day. | |||
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sub-moa really raises the bar. if it was moa i'd guess with the advent of the hornet, but sub moa i would have to guess came in the late 40's especially with mike walker and the advent of the 222. not to say the donaldson wasp and the like weren't capable, but to really reach its own i'd bet on early 50's | |||
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It was a process achieved through the efforts of folks like Speer and Nosler who helped perfect bullet making and Fred Huntington and some others who pioneered reloading. Along with a lot of competition shooters who clammered for better accuracy. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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OK, I may have set the bar too high, lets also include MOA. | |||
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It depends on what you mean by consistent...I would say that sub moa accuracy being available to most capable shooters of modest means in sporting rifles started in the late 70s to early 80s Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I'm not positive when Mike, but I bet A.O. Niedner was involved..... Otherwise, I'd say with the advent of benchrest competition in the late 1940s. Al Barr of the NRA reported getting sub-moa performance from his .250-3000 in a heavy-barreled Enfield in 1949. . | |||
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Reading gun articles A sub min hunting rifle was something to behold up till the 80's. better bullets, better barrels, better scopes. Jack O conner marveled when he could get a rifle to shoot under a inch. Sniper rifles in WWII were thought to be hot stuff if they did under 2 inchs. Sure there were people who tryed and made it but it wasn't any where the norm for a rifle to be a under inch gun. I do not think its is the norm today for out of the box guns. But it is a lot easier to get them there and a larger percentage well be there then years before right out of the box. Enjoy them because not that long ago they where rare indeed. | |||
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My vote goes to the M70 in 220 Swift. Except for the 'consistent' part, I woulda said the M70 and Hornet. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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first appears? i have no clue .. first becomes customary in production rifles, as a benchmark? late 90s ... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I can remember as a young man reading articles where they "wrung out" new rifles. And if a rifle could consistantly keep it's shots inside of 2", it was deemed an accurate hunting rifle. Weatherby used to include a three shot group, supposedly shot from that rifle, in every new rifle box but that was proved to be a hoakes. I can't say when it started but the permissible manufacturing tolerances in components and rifles is much smaller now. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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If shot with factory ammo, I'd guess with the advent of the .222 Remington in the 722 Remington rifle. With handloads, I'd go back way farther, possibly to the advent of the .250-3000 in the Savage M 99. I know every one of the M99 .250s I've owned (about 10) would consistently better an inch for 5-shot groups at 100 yards, with NO modifications to the rifles themselves except for the mounting of scopes on them. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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The early, late 1950s until about 1965 Sako short and medium action rifles were the first really consistent sub moa factory rifles that I saw. At that time, nothing made in the USA was even close. | |||
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Both Butch and AC nailed it - for a single Cartridge which was found in a Remington rifle. Welcome back AC! | |||
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Thanks to all who posted on the subject. When I'm working on a project I like to learn what other folks think about something and see if I've missed the ball completely. I ask some questions before I published anything on the .400-Whelen and now I wished I had saved the responses. It was something along the lines of "How would you describe the .400-Whelen to someone?" | |||
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That sure is a floating answer, depending on some assumptions. My first thought based on the average gun enthusiast/sportsman (not competition shooters) and the advent of the Rem 700 plus factory 243 Winchester ammo in the early sixties. That brought that capability to anytown USA and anyone willing to sit down and practice. In absolute terms I would have said the Schutzen boys inthe late 1800s with paper jacketed bullets, even though that's cheating a little  ."Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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