So a buddy made me a deal I couldn't refuse on a pre-Accutrigger 10FP with 20" barrel. He was cleaning out the safe queens, and I couldn't stop myself. After debating about what brass to purchase---Lapua seems to be the consensus favorite of the competitive shooters while Winchester seemed to be popularly-priced favorite that many folks prepped extensively---I decided to try the Winchester. I'm kinda cheap, and my first thought when hunting with my .30-06 is where did that piece of Nosler brass go. So maybe this stuff at half the price of the Lapua will prevent my being distracted by my brass.

I decided to weigh the 200 pieces I bought to see how consistent it was. Here's what I got. All weights are in grains.

156.1: 1
156.3: 2
156.4: 2
156.5-156.9: 9
157.0-158.0: 118
158.1-158.5: 36
158.6+: 36

In the 158.6+ category roughly about 1/2 were within a few tenths of a grain of 158.6 while about 1/2 were much heavier with most of those +/- 160 grains.

Of course, this leaves the question of what of it too use? 156.5 to 158.5 is 163 pieces. Of course, expanding that another .5 grain on each side encompasses all but about 20 pieces. Or I could just use all of it. I'm not shooting competitively. This will be for fun and hunting only.

LWD

I don't weigh brass. Especially for "fun and hunting". Your time would be better spent practicing. If you get any unexplained flyers, cull those.

I would use the 157.0 to 158.5. From the rest I would make some plinkers and otherwise use them to try things out on.

BTW, Lapua and other quality .308 brass is in the region of 171-172grs.

I would use 156.5 to 158.5 as you suggest...

You also need to measure the cases and trim so all are the same length. Then you measure them. On a .308 Case a Tolerence of +/- 1.5 Grains is acceptable. In other words the Cases that weigh from 156.5 to 158.5 can all be in the same Lot if they have been trimmed to +/- .001
Just my .02 Cents worth.

I resize, then trim, chamfer and then weigh.

Brass has only 1/8 the volume of powder.
Put another way the specific gravity of brass is 8 time that of powder.
If you are happy with a ±.2 grain powder charge you should be happy with a ±1.6 case weight.

The total tolerance of the powder charge weight is .4 grain the case would be 3.2 grains.

Winchester brass sure works well with the 308.

Thank you all for the insights. I learned more than I expected too though that's not uncommon on this board.

LWD

What you are doing may make sense to you but in the real world makes no difference.

Internal Volume is what makes the difference period. The key is pressure as the charge is ignited and consumed----consistent pressure means consistent velocity all things being equal. The difference in the case weight is not necessarily related to the volume of the case.

If it makes you feel better then go ahead but sit down and consider what you are doing and it will become clear.

Body and neck wall thickness uniformity is about 8.5 times more important than case weight. I've shot some 20-shot 1/2 MOA groups at 600 and 800 yards with .308 cases having a 2 grain spread. Mix up the ones you have and pay attention to more important stuff such as barrels, epoxy bedded actions, repeatable sights, never using ball powder, bullets a few ten thousandths bigger than groove diameter, mild primers and always full length size cases with a die that uses bushings (not expander balls) a couple thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameters.

The reality is too that for all the time I spent doing the weighing had I been working I would have made enough money to pay the extra for the Lapua brass!

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by LWD:
The reality is too that for all the time I spent doing the weighing had I been working I would have made enough money to pay the extra for the Lapua brass!

LWD

Life would really be boring if you made no mistakes. Sometimes making ordinary components and rifles shoot well is more rewarding, more interesting and a better learning experience than buying accuracy off of the shelf.

quote:

Originally posted by Bart B.:
Body and neck wall thickness uniformity is about 8.5 times more important than case weight. I've shot some 20-shot 1/2 MOA groups at 600 and 800 yards with .308 cases having a 2 grain spread. Mix up the ones you have and pay attention to more important stuff such as barrels, epoxy bedded actions, repeatable sights, never using ball powder, bullets a few ten thousandths bigger than groove diameter, mild primers and always full length size cases with a die that uses bushings (not expander balls) a couple thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameters.

This is not arguing with Bart, just showing how different approaches can provide the same or better results.

Body and neck wall thickness uniformity is about 8.5 times more important than case weight - is actually the least significant Factor in Reloading I can think of. I used to Neck Turn just to standardize the thickness and realized it was a total waste of time for me.

I've also shot some 20-shot 1/2 MOA groups at 600 and 800 yards with .308 cases and smaller on occasion many years ago, but never with Cases having a 2 grain spread. The reason for me remembering that, is I don't use Cases with that large of a Weight Variance - never have, never will.

Mixing up the ones you have sorted by Weight will result in Larger Groups. Mark any Case that throws a Flier. If it does it a Second time, send it to Bart so he can use it.

Pay attention to more important stuff such as barrels - I agree with that. If you do not have a good shooting barrel, nothing else matters. A quick way to get a good barrel(normally) is to simply buy a Remington or a Savage. Custom Barrels are "usually" excellent, but bad ones are more common than many folks realize.

Two of the finest shooting rifles I have do not have - epoxy bedded actions. Some rifles do shoot better with them, but it is not a universal truth.

Agree with repeatable sights. A bad scope is worse than about anything short of bad eyes.

Never using ball powder is as full of Bologna as I've ever heard. Each rifle is unique and some simply prefer one combination over another. Ball Stick or Flake makes no difference as long as the Burn Rate is correct for the Cartridge when you begin the Load Development. Then the rifle will indicate which it prefers with a specific combination of Case, Primer and Bullet.

Bullets a few ten thousandths bigger than groove diameter - actually 0.001" larger is especially nice when shooting Lead Bullets. With Jacketed, is is not nearly as critical because of the Obturation and some rifles will simply shoot one type of Bullet better than another without concern as long as the Box says it is appropriate for that Caliber.

Mild primers, or Hot Primers work fine, just depends on the rest of the components and how well they all function together.

Always full length size cases, - only if you are Dangerous Game Hunting. Otherwise you are self-inflicting short Case Life due to creating Excess Headspace.

With a die that uses bushings (not expander balls) a couple thousandths smaller than loaded round neck diameters, - is not needed at all. Standard old RCBS and Redding Dies set to P-FLR do a much better job of ensuring the CenterLine of the Case is aligned with the CenterLine of the Chamber than all the hoodooing, flim-flaming Neck-Turning Sidewall-Thickness Bologna you can find.
-----

There is no single way to create the "Best Possible Accuracy", or we would all be doing everything the same way. What works for me might not work for you.

Hey LWD, Now that you have your Cases Weight Sorted to an amount you are happy with, it seems strange to me that recombining them into a big mass of mixed volumes would even be considered. Granted, it might not make a difference, but my confidence would be a lot Higher with the Weight-Sorted Cases. And I'd have gone even farther in the separation between Lots.

Best of luck to you.

Hot Core's comment:

quote:

Standard old RCBS and Redding Dies set to P-FLR do a much better job of ensuring the CenterLine of the Case is aligned with the CenterLine of the Chamber

No rimless bottleneck case ever aligns its centerline with the chamber centerline except at peak pressure when the case walls are pressing hard against the chamber walls. Go measure how a case sized any way, including brand new ones, fit the chamber when it's fired and you'll learn they all are at a very small angle but the shoulder's perfectly centered; probably moreso with full length sized cases compared to any neck sized version. Regardless of how a case is sized, the difference in how slightly crooked it is in the chamber when fired is about the same as a .0005" difference in bullet runout. Which means that even with ammo with absolute zero bullet runout, the bullet still enters the bore a tiny bit crooked; fortunatly, it straightens up quite well by the time it's all the way into the rifling.

Folks who don't (can't?) understand why this happens will counter my comments with all sorts of remarks. Folks who already know or can figure out why will agree with me. It ain't hard to figure out or measure; just look at where all the forces in the rifle are to make it happen; there's two of 'em.

Why does anybody think Sierra Bullets (as well as most high power rifle competitors who win matches and set records, Mid Tompkins, his wife and two daughters, and David Tubb included) has got the best accuracy with their products by full length sizing fired cases without expander balls having tried every version of neck or partial sizing possible? They should contact Sierra Bullets and find out why their best 30 caliber match bullets shoot inside 1/4th MOA at 200 yards. Some of these competitors have shot ammo/rifle test groups at 600 yards smaller than benchrest records with their full length sized cases. I've got a 20-shot test group from a Palma rifle that's 3.25 iches across; not too bad for WCC60 cases with a 2-grain spread full length sized....at 800 yards. Try that with any form of neck or partial sizing.

And folks who properly full length sized their fired .308 Win. cases get dozens of reloads per case fired in SAAMI chambers, sometimes over 70. Of course, if one's not learned how to do it nor tried it the right way will say it's impossible.

quote:

And I'd have gone even farther in the separation between Lots.

Hot Core-

How close would you have segregated them?

LWD

Hot Core does support one point that I made. Fire culling. As he says, if you have an unexplained flier, mark the case and if it repeats, toss it in the scrap bucket. I also agree however that no matter how many gadgets and gizmos you buy, nor what prep you go thru, a bullet always enters the barrel crooked when fired. So beyond a certain care in preparation, the reloaders that angst overly long on run out and such are chasing their tail.
Of course, it's a simple feat to test if closely weighing your brass gives you better groups or not. Just load up some lots of like sized brass and put them in a paper bag with an ID slip of paper in with them and load up some random picks in another bag. Have someone switch the bags around until you don't know which is which until after you've shot them.
Most of this stuff, I think everybody ought to try at least once and find out for themselves that a lot of it is smoke and mirrors. Or chicken soup.

quote:

Originally posted by LWD:
Hot Core - How close would you have segregated them? LWD

Hey LWD, Let me toss in a Disclaimer first: What I do may be a complete waste of time(as I've had PLENTY of folks tell me), but it is my time to waste, so I do with it as I see fit.

I typically start with 300-1000 Cases and give them a complete Case Prep - through the Sizer, Trim, Champfer, Deburr, Square Primer Pockets, De-Burr Flash Hole, and Polish the Case Mouth with 0000SteelWool wrapped around a 22cal Bore Brush. I want them all treated the same.(This takes some time and is best broken up into several evenings(for me). Can drive normal people to Drink.

Now I'm ready to begin Weighing. I Weigh a Case, put a piece of 3M Magic Tape on it, write the exact weight on the Tape and on a Data Sheet(DS-1). I do that for the entire lot with about 10 weights across the page and down as many sheets as needed. That allows me to quickly count the number of Cases I've done.

Then I take DS-1 and look for the Lightest Case, enter it in Column 1 on the left side of DS-2. Then I "Highlight" that specific case weight on DS-1 so I do not re-count it.

As an example, the Lightest 223Rem Case might be 90.0gr. So DS-2 looks like this:

DS-2
90.0
90.1
90.2
90.3
90.4
Etc. until I get to the Heaviest Case

Then I add a Tick Mark at the appropriate Weight as I count the Cases at each Weight:

DS-2
90.0 I
90.1
90.2 II
90.3 IIII
90.4 I
Etc. until I get to the Heaviest Case and cross each 4 to count 5.

Once I'm done recording all the Case Weights from DS-1 over to DS-2, I can normally see a "Bell Shaped Curve". This is a typical Quality Assurance Process called a Pareto Analysis. And it allows you to see exactly how many are located at each individual Weight. Gives me something to do when the weather is bad.

Then I normally make a couple of Copies of DS-2. Now I can look at the amounts and break them up into any size Lots I desire. Perhaps the Lots are groups of 9, 15, 18 or 20 - doesn't matter, I can pick as many as I want and often they will all Weigh the exact same amount.

Or I can take the Lightest(3-5) and the Heaviest(3-5) and see if the Spread makes any difference in the Group Center. Once I know what I have, then it is simply choosing what I want to do with them.
-----

This does not mean everyone should do this. If you do not see the need for it, you have no argument with me. On the other hand, it sure gives me a lot of confidence in my Hunting Loads to know they are as close to exactly alike as possible and any that created a Second Flier are relegated to something else.

BTW, 3M Magic Transparent Tape leaves no Residue on a Case as it is removed and is easy to write on with a Ball Point. Paper Tape(aka Masking Tape) falls off as time passes .

Best of luck to you.

For folks who sort cases by 1/10th grain weights, I'm wondering if they know that primers have a greater variance in their detonation brisanse levels than what a 1 grain spread in case weight might cause with perfect powders and primers burning exactly the same rates in those cases. There's almost the same variance in exact powder charges.

A bunch of use testing some powders for a new Sierra bullet to be used in new .308 Win. cases. We ended up using 45.3 grains +/- 2/10ths grain metered into new Winchester cases with a 2.5 grain spread in case weight. Bullet runout was under 3.5 thousandths. The ammo shot 20-round test groups at 600 yards under 3 inches. A few dozen people from around the world tried it in their match rifles reported the same accuracy level in their barrels. That ammo would shoot 1/4th MOA at 100 yards.

There's a lot more important stuff to handloading ammo than near exact case weights, but most folks can't detect the variables in what's important. They measure the easy to see stuff that really doesn't matter in the first place.

Some folks shoot to reload; some folks reload to shoot. Neither one is right nor wrong. Which ever one skins your banana back, go for it. And then there is a happy medium.
Beginning reloaders need to wonder around and try a lot of stuff to find out exactly where they fit in.
Because some of us have been there and done that and have better things to do with our time than play with sticky tape and magic markers --like for instance actually shoot guns-- that does not mean we are bad people nor poor reloaders.

quote:

Originally posted by Bart B.:
A few dozen people from around the world tried it in their match rifles reported the same accuracy level in their barrels. ...

Even the newest Beginner should realize there is no such thing as an Optimum Cartridge for all rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Bart B.:
A few dozen people from around the world tried it in their match rifles reported the same accuracy level in their barrels. ...

Even the newest Beginner should realize there is no such thing as an Optimum Cartridge for all rifles.

Damnit, Hot Core, read what I put in print. Then remember it when you start mouthing off.

I said "match" rifles, not all rifles. You weren't there in 1991 and 1992 at the NRA Whittington Center when this happened. You've got minimal knowledge of this area of the shooting sports. You're barking BS out of ignorance. Keep it up and you'll move into the dumb and stupid catagory.

quote:

Originally posted by Bart B.:
I said "match" rifles, not all rifles. You weren't there in 1991 and 1992 at the NRA Whittington Center when this happened. You've got minimal knowledge of this area of the shooting sports. ...

Hey Bart, How would you possibly know where I was? Is this some other phase of your Twilight Zone technique? Perhaps I was right there laughing at you.

But to clarify my previous post concerning, an OCW Load, "A Cartridge Combination which will work Great in ALL Match Rifles chambered for the same Cartridge" -

Also none for Palma rifles, Position rifles, Rail Guns, Single Shots, Levers, Pumps, Automatics, Semi-Autos, Blot or Bolt Actions, Black Powder, Smokeless, Revolvers, Pistols, Canons, Rimfires, Sling Shots, Pea Shooters, etc.

I can see where a person might want to convince someone "shooting against him" such a Cartridge exists. I currently only know of one person who claims to have knowledge about Match Rifles that has yet to convince me he knows anything about Shooting or Reloading. Perhaps you can get your crystal ball out and determine who that is.

Uh Oh, HC is off and running. I'm outa here. I've got a couple of cases of sticky tape coming in that I need to inventory.

A couple of points I'd like to make before you go off on a tangent about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, the poster was a beginner; he was reloading for "fun and hunting"; one can assume he was using a sporter weight production rifle; his bench technique was probably no better than us average hackers, not on a par with a world classer like you, so most of the CONJECTURE you're laying on him is far beyond his ability to use so why clutter up his learning curve.
Whoever told him he needed to weigh cases has done enough damage. These self styled "experts" that want to take one small facet of bench shooting and try to make a doxology of it are not doing anyone a favor.
To repeat my position, he would be much better off if he wants to shoot to his and his rifle's potential practicing proper bench technique and repeatable rifle positioning; ensuring that he has a stable shooting platform rather than weighing cases and dicking around with flash holes and such trivial crap. If he'd spend his time at his kitchen table dry firing at a spot on the wall his groups would grow smaller much more quickly.

Stillbeeman, if H.C. were to ask Sierra Bullets about how they test 30 caliber bullets from their rail guns chambered for the .308 Win. and learn they've used the same load for decades, he'd scream so loud the chipset in computers showing his rants would melt the mainframes and monitors. Sierra doesn't work up loads for each barrel nor lot of bullets, powder, primers and cases. They just use the same load all the time; barrel after barrel after barrel.......metering charges directly into full length sized primed cases. I doubt anybody shoots their bullets as accurate as they do up through 300 yards.

Bart, no one here has a rail gun which makes your whole argument specious and useless. It would make sense for someone to use the same load for testing different lots of bullets to see how they compare to each other. It does not make sense at all that the same load would work in all rifles equally, especially the rifles that we are all posting about.

I guess everyone can tell that I really don't care what Sierra does with their rail guns. This forum is about exchanging factual precise information about the guns we all use. One particular load will not work in all our guns . (that's a period)

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
One particular load will not work in all our guns.

Damnit, Woods, read what I put in print. Then remember it when you start mouthing off.

I said "match" rifles, not all rifles (or guns, as you call them). You're as bad as Hot Core, but you've a longer history of misquoting what I put in print than he does.

Are you afraid of responding my post in another thread about popping primed cases, both live ones and duds and setting the case shoulder back with each one? It sure proves you don't know as much about what happens when a round's fired as you think you do.

IMO it wouldn't matter if the rifle was a match rifle or not, one load will not be accurate in all of them. Of course, I can not prove this, but I still think it is



I'll get to the other wet primer shoulder setback think sooner or later but I'm not worried about it.

Are you going to answer the flag thrown on your ridiculous assertion that a heavier firing pin spring will make a primer hotter?

Look, I'm sure that a lot of posters are getting tired of this. Why don't you just go back to where ever you came from and stop posting



here? Either that or keep Sierra rail guns, recommended FL sizing on belted cases or continuously posting that FL sizing is more accurate than anything else etc. out of the discussions and stick to contributing factual, specific and precise information.

I've about had it with being nice to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Bart B.:
... Sierra doesn't work up loads for each barrel nor lot of bullets, powder, primers and cases. They just use the same load all the time; barrel after barrel after barrel.......metering charges directly into full length sized primed cases. ...

I won't deny that Sierra is doing what you have said. But for what reason? Definetly not to shoot the smallest groups possible. All they do is to keep the surrounding factors constant in order to come to comparable results regarding the projectile. This includes FL sizing the cases. They do it for long-term consistency, not because it would be more accurate.

McFox just covered the Sierra situation - exactly. Great post McFox!

Bart just keeps drawing incorrect conclusions based on information that is inappropriate to his line of thinking. The more I read of his posts, the more obvious it becomes he really doesn't understand what is happening in the Firing Sequence.

However, he "might" be able to learn how to actually Reload from the excellent group of Reloaders who contribute to this Board. But, that is questionable. Sierra has really confused him, which makes no sense. Perhaps he has a grudge against Sierra and is just trying to make them look bad.

Nearly everything one does too a cartridge case , from weighing sizing trimming neck truing primer pocket corrections , all leads to increased accuracy regardless of whether it's a match or Sunday plinker firearm .It all follows a pattern like truing up the bolt face chamber tolerances straight line boring rifling truing muzzle crown . It's ALL part of the Game we play for one hole multi shot groups !.


No matter what anyone else thinks ballistics proves consistency is the key too successful

shooting whatever the endeavor is !.

Doc, what you say sounds very good and true and rightous. But it's really so much noise. It's quite like putting a pair of Air Jordans on a tottler that has yet to walk. And then telling him how to do a slight fade to the outside when he begins his kick on the last turn in a 10K.

You made my point exactly. All of the anal stuff you outlined would never truly affect the accuracy of a production rifle. Especially in the hands of the average shooter. But it does make you sound knowledgable. And a good bit of the crap you outlined is only done because "everybody else" does it. As a noted bench shooter said: "if I glued paddles on the sides of my stock, at the next match, half the stocks would have paddles on them...".

Darn guys I didn't mean to start a fight.

Thanks again for all the very informative responses.

LWD

Oh, don't sweat it, LWD. It's an ongoing thing.

quote:

Originally posted by LWD:
Darn guys I didn't mean to start a fight. ..

What fight? Did I miss out on one?

Come to think of it, if a person had a good enough scale, they could weigh them to XXX.XXgr.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Uh Oh, HC is off and running. I'm outa here. ...

Hey stillbeeman, Did you just pull a clinton on us???

I just didn't want to be in the middle if this thing morphed over into che and pre and pee.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Brass has only 1/8 the volume of powder.
Put another way the specific gravity of brass is 8 time that of powder.
If you are happy with a ±.2 grain powder charge you should be happy with a ±1.6 case weight.

The total tolerance of the powder charge weight is .4 grain the case would be 3.2 grains.

GREAT RESPONSE

Bart B.,
I don't know where you got your facts, but for the greater part, you are wrong. Sierra does not make a 308 bullet that is a true 1/4MOA shooter. Not just once in a while, a true 1/4MOA averages that.
I do full length size my BR brass, but I made a special sizing die that is .003 smaller at the base, .002 smaller at the shoulder, and .004 smaller at the neck. The reamer that I used was ground by Dave Kiff from the specs of my chamber reamer that he made. I bump the shoulder back .001 each time. After sizing the brass springs back to a snug fit without having to force the bolt close.
If you hunt to kill animals all of this BR BS is a waste of time. A 1 MOA rifle used by a shooter that pulls the trigger a lot will kill more animals than the guy that spends all of his time fooling with all this stuff. Unless it is prairie dogs or hogs, I shoot at 300yds or less. If I can't kill an animal with a 3" target on him, I need practice and not more accurate ammo.
Butch

Thank you, Butch! Thank you, thank you, thank you.